kurzweil pianos

[rockkeys]

why do kurzweil pianos get so much hate? I know that they may not sound the most realistic, but they work so well in a mix! (large stages; loud rock band) I've just finished a tour using Ivory and I gotta say, friends, critics, and my FOH engineer were universal in their complaints regarding how bad the piano sat in the mix. Perhaps the most 'realistic' sounding sample is not always the best? Very close to going back to a pc3k8 despite the 'hate' for the 'dated' triple strike piano.

[CEB]

How much do these haters gig? Heck today it is all pretty much good compare to what we used to play with.

 

Gear is overated.

[johnchop]

I think it's a mix versus solo issue for most folks. I'm not wild about it for playing subtle solo pieces, but it is nice and punchy for many other contexts.

 

I agree about the realism issue. When I set up piano sounds for live work, I take out "noise" layers. It's cute and all, but it's not part of the piano's "voice" for me.

[erikjamesmusic]

I laugh every time I hear Kurz piano hate speak. To my ears, my PC3X sounds/feels the most like an acoustic piano than any other keyboard on the market. Check out 008 "Evans Grand", and 842 "Pro Piano" samples. If ANYTHING, I'd say the Nord/Yamaha top-tier piano samples sometimes cut through a live band mix better than the Kurz but are NOT as realistic. Dave Weiser and co. and doing a GREAT job over there and I have a feeling this will be a huge year for the company...

[Dana.]

http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/1/5/homereatingpopcorn.JPG

[CEB]

My theory always has been that most gigging players doing electric music do not really want a realistic piano sound. That is why many of these same folks will gravitate toward Yamaha grands when it comes to acoustic pianos as opposed to a nice Mason & Hamlin or something like a Kawai RX-6.

 

Someone posted this camcorder coverage of my New year Eve gig on YouTube. My piano sound is a highly tweaked Kawai MP patch that sounds like ass by itself but it works for the band. The nice more realistic setting don't work live. Maybe when we get the IEM running and everyone is running ampless on stage I can change that.

 

Forgive the playing on this.... I know ... I suck.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76dPT5L_IKg

[Aidan]

I think you had it right in your original post. For better or worse, most piano samples (indeed, I'd go so far as to say nearly all workstation patches are set up to sound upfront and impressive solo on the showroom floor but may not be problematic in a band mix because there is too much sonic information being pumped into a situation where you really need to occupy just a defined part of the spectrum.

 

That's not to say you probably couldn't arrive at something workable with Ivory, given how tweakable it is, but it might just be overkill for your purposes.

[Delaware Dave]

Gee, an endless subject of debate in these forums. I try to put it in this perspective: What do you think the percentages are of people using or liking Yamaha equipment vs. Kurzweil? My guess is there is far more Yamaha equipment used than Kurzweil. A Yamaha synthesizer (using Yamaha samples) sounds different than a Kurzweil synth (Steinway based). Yamaha pianos sound crisper and brighter vs. the flatter, more classical sounding Steinway. I'm not suggesting that one sounds better than the other, it simply a person's cup of tea. Since more people are purchasing Yamaha's than Kurzweil's that is likely the sound that people are accustomed to hearing and probably gravitate towards. Kurzweil probably could have done themselves a favor by having introduced a Yamaha-based piano in the PC3(K) series thereby giving people an option on the piano. You've probably heard the arguments of Kurzweil's triple strike being "long in the tooth" as well as having terrible string sympathic resonance. I play in a LOUD, repeat, LOUD band. I can hardly hear myself on the stage let alone the string resonance. Piano sustain, hmmm, can't say I've ever heard that on my stage, as a matter of fact I can't hear anything past the initial downward strike of the keys without the guitar players 'rhythm' completely drowning me out. The point I'm making is there is live playing, recording, TV score recording, all kinds of functions. Each one has its place. IVORY software with all of its sound nuances in a rock setting is probably not the best use. I still prefer my GEM Equinox with its "Real Piano II" sample base over the Yamaha's of today and the Kurzweil PC3. But for the record, I've found that by tweaking the envelopes of the PC3 and the filters and EQing I'm happy with the PC3's 'long in the tooth' pianos for my live application. My two cents, which is probably all that it is worth in this forum.

[David Loving]

"People just love to talk" - I started playing a Kurz PC88. I loved playing it and when the PC1X came out I bought one and installed the classic keys thing. I am still playing it - love the sound and the action - pretty much just like the PC88. When I don't take it out I take a PX330. I think all this OCD stuff over piano sound is just a way to kill time in the internet. It's amazing how good an accomplished player sounds on just about anything.

[BEMcCut]

CEB, I thought your solo sounded good. Perfect for the song. The organ parts sounded good, too.

 

We all seem to be on a quest for the best most realistic sounds. Piano, organ, brass, strings or whatever. When you really think about it, we do it for ourselves. Most of the people that listen to our music, live or recorded, can't tell the difference.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Duh, what hate? My gear list below should show that I personally have no problem, especially in live band situations with Kurzweil pianos. BTW, I do have EWQL Pianos Gold, but rarely use them.

One thing I have found - the Kurz patches that sound the best solo don't cut it in the band - the ones that sound way too brash solo work real good in cutting through the guitards.

 

Again, a matter of taste. My Baldwin Howard grand has a way different sound from my Kurzweils, and I don't have enough spare money (nor a large enough room for the 9') for a Steinway or Bosendorfer. Even when I had the Electro 3, I usually played the Steinway or Bosendorfer on it.

 

I know enough of the history of Kurzweil to know that they didn't have the option when the PC3 was released to come out with all new samples. Don't know exactly what they will be sampling for the K3000 or whatever they will call it - but I'll bet that it will sound different - and will still sit well in the mix.

 

[Tobias Åslund]

why do kurzweil pianos get so much hate? I know that they may not sound the most realistic

This might have something to do with the constant bashing. It's 2012 and we're spoiled with multi gigabyte libraries.

 

I can't stand Kurzweil pianos simply because I played a PC88 just about every day for five years. I so wanted a K2500X with the piano ROM when it came out, but I was very disappointed when I heard that even though it had three velocity layers it still sounded the same. Now with the same triple strike - no matter how many layers of VAST processing you run it through I can still easily identify the Kurzweil sound.

 

Now I will go setup the PC88 in my homestudio... It's still a nice controller, albeit a bit worn out by now...

 

Here's a good example, where I think the choice of Keyboard spoiles the listening experience:

 

[video:youtube]

 

Ok, this might not be a fair example, since the piano seems to be an old PC88 (1994) and not more recent technology. Still, the basic character is till in there, IMHO.

 

That being said - I was very impressed when I heard demos from the K2000 Sweetwater Grand Piano CD-rom. Thankfully today you can buy the PC3K-series and use the piano samples of your own choice.

[Tobias Åslund]

Anyway, today I do a lot more gigging then back in '95. Now my go to piano is another "ugly" sound lot's of character - it cuts through any dense mix and sounds as good in mono as in stereo. The piano is the Nord Romantic Upright. I guess I like using it for the same reason as people still like the Kurz triple strike.

 

Now it's time for a beer - it's friday night!

[Delaware Dave]

Duh, what hate?

Was that directed at me? I never once used the word hate in my response. I actually have the PC3 pianos sounding to my liking ...

[ITGITC]

 

My PC2X sounds great!

 

I really like my Nord Electro 3 HP too.

 

My ears, my back, and my bank account made the decision to buy these.

 

Everybody has different needs. I don't pay much attention to the haters.

 

Plus, Dave Weiser at Kurzweil represents the best I've ever seen from a company representative. His hands-on support and daily participation in the forums adds so much value to the brand that it's hard to consider something else.

 

Tom

 

[ABECK]

I got a MicroPiano when they first came out and I think I kept it for at least 8 years. I agree with others - playing solo piano didn't feel right. It just sounds like a Kurzweil, rather than a piano, if that makes any sense. However, It fit so nicely in a live mix, competing with guitars. After I sold the MicroPiano, I bought a GEM PRP800. Man, in a solo context, I was so pleased (especially with the Fazioli piano). However, I was shocked when I got it on stage for the first time and it just didn't cut through evenly. The attack was there, but the body of the sound just got sucked up by the rest of the band.

Currently, I'm using an Electro 3 for piano, which I love. It cuts through AND sounds like a piano (bonus!) Of course, we are spoiled now, just like with clonewheels. I remember when a DX-7 was a good piano sound and a Roland RD-1000 was a GREAT piano sound.

[NewImprov]

I've been gravitating towards the "Blues Piano" patch on my SP4-7 whenever I need to play piano in a band setting, it's mono, compressed and kind of band-limited, but it definitely sits into a space in the overall mix. I use it in a Reggae band and in a roots-rock band, and everybody seems to like the sound.

[Ken Beaumont]

My SP4-7 "Stage Piano" works perfect for my needs on the stage in a band. The pianos sit very well in the mix and the non piano sounds are spot on. Its light and takes up little stage space. At home I can use my Privia with Ivory (Italian Grands) or my Bk-7m module. But most times just the PX-330 built in piano sounds just fine through good monitors. If anything my only want is enough money for a good clone wheel organ to sit on top of the Kurz.

[MuzikTeechur]

 

Now it's time for a beer - it's friday night!

 

Finally, an opinion we can all agree with!

[AnotherScott]

My SP4-7 "Stage Piano" works perfect for my needs on the stage in a band. The pianos sit very well in the mix and the non piano sounds are spot on. Its light and takes up little stage space. At home I can use my Privia with Ivory

...

If anything my only want is enough money for a good clone wheel organ to sit on top of the Kurz.

How about putting the Privia on bottom and the SP4-7 on top? I think you should be able to trigger the Kurzweil piano sound from the Privia while triggering the Kurzweils KB3 organ sounds from its own keyboard, even panning each sound to one side, so that you have essentially separate piano and organ outputs out of the SP4. I used an M-Audio UC-33e to basically give the SP4-7 drawbars, that worked fine.

[ITGITC]

I remember when a DX-7 was a good piano sound and a Roland RD-1000 was a GREAT piano sound.

 

No.

 

The Yamaha DX-7 was never a good piano sound.

 

But I will be happy to discuss this over a beer.

 

Tom

 

[Dave Ferris]

Again for those who might've missed it the first time, the PC2X.

 

Pianist Robin Swenson and vocalist Janelle Sadler

 

http://www.divshare.com/download/15799145-d02

[Michelle ggurl]

I think it's a mix versus solo issue for most folks. I'm not wild about it for playing subtle solo pieces, but it is nice and punchy for many other contexts.

 

This.

 

I have a Kurzweil PC2, and while I don't get all fan-girl about much, I really like the Kurzweil esthetic. Now, I know I don't have Kurz's latest and greatest technology, so I don't know if it's fair for me to say I have some issues with it. Still, after trying lots of other boards, both in the showroom, and, after excruciatingly deliberate research that led to me purchasing (and likely selling) a Roland FP-4 (any takers? It's the old model, with the action y'all like), I am back to just gigging with my PC2. Oh yeah, I play in a jazz trio, mostly acoustic piano.

 

My journey is well documented here. I have to say, the Yammy, Korg and Casio/Privia versions of DP I tried were not inspiring to me ... or, the models that were inspiring were too heavy for me to lug around. I should mention at this point that I have two acoustic pianos in my house ... I know what 'real" feels and sounds like. And actually, the DPs today can do a good approximation of sound ... but it's keybed-to-sound response where EVERYTHING falls shortest.

 

I really really loved the FP-4. It sounds and behaves better than the PC2, no question about it. I feel I am an OK enough player to make some assertions that might echo other players' experiences, I dunno. BUT for some reason, the ROland action just killed me. Sent my arm/hand into a spiral of RSI flare-up I have only recently recovered from.

 

Turns out the quick return of the keys on the PC2 comes closest to an acoustic piano; most DPs, in trying to introduce a weighty feel, get kinda sluggish on that score, and it appears that makes me subconciously tense up. And those weighted DPs with a quicker return seem to bottom out too hard, creating another set of hand-pain issues. While I'm sure there are some issues with my technique, I have been playing a long time, including double classical and jazz piano performance concentrations at university, so it's not like my technique has been completely ignored. Also, any pain I experience playing a DP goes away when I play an acoustic, so I don't think technique really is a problem (unless being really conditioned to play acoustic is a problem ... apparently to a degree, for me, it is).

 

I will upload samples later of a demo recording I just did with my trio ... bass, drums, piano. Only the piano was the Kurz PC2. I was not happy with how it sounded while recording, the response/action and how I heard that manifest in playback. But with the rough mixes, it doesn't seem so bad. Still, I usually record on an acoustic and prefer it by miles. For this quick demo, that wasn't possible. Still, it will give you all an idea. It's very rough, I need to go back in there and fix some things and it really wasn't an "on" night for me (I played better at a gig three days later -- that is so annoying, to not be really on it when you want to be), but, warts and all, you can at least hear the aged PC2 in yet another context.

 

I know a renowned musician who plays an old Roland RD600 -- does not like any of Roland's new actions. And like many players, doesn't spend much time chasing the newest gear. I really don't either, obviously, but I thought I'd give the new crop of lighter-weight-bigger-sample offerings a try. I'm going to forumite Dave Pierce's this weekend to try his PC1SE because it's weighted and weighs the same as my PC2, and I might buy it if I like that action a bit better. I've always liked Kurz actions. They just don't fatigue or hurt. That's kind of a priority for me.

[AnotherScott]

Michelle, I thought the action on the PC1SE was quite nice. I couldn't deal with the springiness of the PC2, so obviously we have some different preferences, but I think there's a good chance you'll like the PC1SE. It doesn't bottom out as hard as some of the Rolands, but it also isn't sluggish like many Yamaha/Kawai/Korg/Casio are.

 

I've really liked some of the hard-bottoming Rolands in showroom evaluation, but I've never played one long term, and you bring up a good point, I don't really know if it would feel as good in more intensive use, maybe that hard bottom could make it tiring.

 

Back to the PC1SE, if I remember correctly, one slight annoyance was that a thumbnail gliss wouldn't work well, which is also a problem with similar Fatar mechanisms used in some Nords. I think I had the same issue on a Roland, maybe the FP-4F.

[reidmc]

 

No.

The Yamaha DX-7 was never a good piano sound.

+ 1000

 

Two random additions to this conversation: (1) I am often struck by how bad a true acoustic piano sounds in a dense pop or rock mix, live or recorded; (2) Unhappy with triple-strike? Just add a simple delay for that sextuple-strike sound.

[allan_evett]

I've used a lot of different hardware pianos and modules since 1986; my piano from then 'til '92 was a Korg SG-1. My favorite overall, so far - ripe for the 'gear I wish I hadn't sold' list - has been my Yamaha S90ES. Simply put, that S700 piano ('Natural', or 'Bright') had a way of sitting right in a variety of mixes. Very 'forgiving' too: I could hear myself in every situation, from crappy band stage mixes (with everything out of whack, level-wise) to pro sound company, festival stage mixes. Still have those pianos in my Motif XF, thanks to Flash RAM. If I do any any gigs in the midwest with the now re-formed country act that was my staple for many years, the leader will likely insist on that 'piano'; funny, I'll probably end up playing it from a Kronos 88 keybed.

 

The PC3X was just about tied with the above for live band playability. For its' synth and clonewheel capabilities it was quite a bit ahead of the S90ES. For piano it was almost as forgiving of bad mixes as the S90ES, but not quite. It also worked very well for a couple of solo, background piano restaurant gigs I've done here in CO; that's likely due to the variety of tones available for piano. Dave Weiser and crew did a superb job fine tuning that keyboard; I had one of the pre-production models in early '08, and had a lot of fun participating in and seeing the further development of its' library. The core PC3 piano tone, all of the various piano Programs, and the variety of instruments now having those sounds makes the current Kurzweil line very attractive for anyone looking for a 'piano' to anchor their rig. Is the core triple-strike tone a little long in the tooth ? Sure. Do I understand the hate for it ? No way. It's Kurzweil's massive DSP, and expert programming that make the Programs work as well as they do; and despite it's 'age', the Steinway sample in there is solid, not uber exciting, just solid. Very similar to how Yamaha, with their earlier renditions of AWM, smoked the much higher GB software pianos for live performance; for many players, the current Yamaha pianos still do that. Will be interesting to see what's next for Kurzweil beyond the PC3. I suspect that a new sample set and updated features combined with their DSP expertise would produce something in the Kronos' league, and beyond.

 

Speaking of Kronos, as we've referred to others pianos besides Kurzweil in this thread, I've found it to work well live for playing piano. The German Grand tone, for very open, semi-solo piano playing, is stronger than anything I've used live - except a mic'd grand piano; it's my 'go to' for ballads and mid-tempo tunes, country and rock; it layers great too. Where I need to dial the Kronos in is on the stuff that needs to cut; and no, I don't need another 'rock piano' patch with the 'instant on' attack and bright artifacts. I want it to sound like I'm playing a mic'd Yamaha C7 - including the resulting dynamic subtlety - that is sitting great in the monitor mix along with two electric guitars that are cranked. I think that was the idea with the Japanese Grand, and its' resulting Programs, but I have to wrestle with hearing myself in sometimes crappy onstage mixes - even with a fair amount of editing. The S90ES tackled that problem, right out of the box. I'm thinking of trying the OASYS piano Programs for that application. Also I heard reference, in another thread here, to a new piano sample coming out for the Kronos.

[AnotherScott]

My favorite overall, so far - ripe for the 'gear I wish I hadn't sold' list - has been my Yamaha S90ES. Simply put, that S700 piano ('Natural', or 'Bright') had a way of sitting right in a variety of mixes.

...

Still have those pianos in my Motif XF, thanks to Flash RAM.

I've never had a chance to play the S90ES, but I've liked recordings I've heard of its S700 sound. I wish it were possible to get it in something more portable, whether a Motif Rack variation, or a lightweight board. Even a 61-key Motif XF (i.e. as second tier board, but with a piano you could drive from a light 88 below) weighs about 33 lbs (more than double the MOX6).

[Dana.]

Very similar to how Yamaha, with their earlier renditions of AWM, smoked the much higher GB software pianos for live performance

+1

 

Allan, I think we've agreed on this before when discussing the P50-m module: that AWM sound cuts through a rock mix with ease. I'm pretty sure Yamaha has included an improved version of it in most, if not all, of their digital pianos up to the CP300 (for the stage line) and the P95 (home line).

[CEB]

That little half rack box Yamaha made years ago? That thing sounded really good.

[Tobias Åslund]

What happened with all the clonewheel discussions...? Cheers!