Aidan Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Well, the broken EV ZXA1 has to go back to Thomann in Germany for them to look at it. So the first job of next week is to source a box and pack it ready for UPS to collect. Unfortunately, I have a band gig on the 18th. For this, I need two mains and two vocal monitors. I'd have been fairly happy using the DB Opera 10s as mains with the JBL EON G2 10s as monitors. But as luck would have it, one of the DBs is also experiencing problems with a high-end rattling shrillness and is unusable. What's more, if I'm honest, these two speakers are really reaching the end of their life. They're well beaten-up, power sockets are loose, intermittent buzzing etc etc. I did buy the EV with the thought of maybe getting another a bit later on to use the pair as mains. But having lived with it for a few weeks, I've realised there isn't enough bass extension or power there for that purpose without having a sub in the equation. So I've finally decided to bite the bullet and spend some serious money on PA, in the form of two QSC K10s. The DBs will go on eBay as is for what they can fetch. I'll keep the JBLs for now but once I get the EV back, if it proves reliable long term I may acquire its twin and then use these for monitoring, as they're definitely nicer sounding and lighter than the JBLs. Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I did buy the EV with the thought of maybe getting another a bit later on to use the pair as mains. But having lived with it for a few weeks, I've realised there isn't enough bass extension or power there for that purpose without having a sub in the equation. So I've finally decided to bite the bullet and spend some serious money on PA, in the form of two QSC K10s. According to the specs, the QSC K10 is down 6 dB at 60 Hz, the EV is down only 3 dB at 60 Hz; and the 10 dB down points are at 56 Hz and 48 Hz respectively, so the EV actually has the better (deeper/flatter) bass extension... but the peak SPL difference of 129 dB vs 123 dB is huge, so yeah, the QSC can kick more. Although, having used the sonically similar QSC K8, I think acoustic pianos sounds are much more natural through the EV than then QSC, if that's a concern. When I need a louder/deeper PA than the EV, I've been using the JBL PRX625 and am very happy with that. 139 dB max SPL, down 3 dB at 55 Hz, down 10 dB at 40 Hz, and piano sounds good. But yeah, more expensive, and heavier. Though I like that I can use them just on the floor, and don't have to bother setting up stands or hoisting speakers up onto stands. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Even as good as my RCF TT08As sound--when you put 'em on poles as a foh function you miss the bass with the 8"s-unless you're in a very small room playing solo or duo. They sound best laying on their side, wedge style, on a piano bench or something like that. I bought the 12"s for gigs where I needed more coverage-the TT22As- they sound great but they're probably overkill for most of my situations these days.. They're a small size but 52 lbs and mother to get up on poles by yourself. I knew all of this going in but I'm a sucker for a great deal and this was one. A 10" box is a good compromise. I might look into selling the 22As and getting the birch RCF NX M10A. http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/nx-series/nx-m10-a About the same weight as the K10s. I had one to audition next to the 08A last year, very good sounding box. It was a VERY hard call between the two but I ended up going with the TT. It sounded better for DP but for vocal, it's less critical. DB is under the RCF corporate umbrella. They sell a lot of 'em but from what I've been told by US RCF reps at NAMM (off the record) they are more intended for weekend DJer types then musical instrument or pro sound application. Also from what I've been told about those speakers- I think you should be thankful you were able get the use out of the Operas that you did. The K10s sound like a good choice.... https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris 2005 NY Steinway D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 According to the specs,- I don´t believe any specs because these are BS in most cases. Consider Watts ... Watts = Volts x Amperes EVZX1A p.ex.: 220V x 0.4A = 88W Consider a efficiency of 98% for a class D amp and you have 86 Watts for the music. I wonder where the 400 Watts come from. Just an example ... Frequency response & SPL relates on the way they measure. There´s no comparison by reading data sheets,- trust your ears and compare speakers, active or passive, side by side. The real SPL of a EVZXA1 is somewhere between 91 and 100dB which is good for a box of that size and don´t expect much low end because you cannot change the physics. Why I´m telling this ? Because it might be a better solution to buy a passive version and consider a separate hi-end power amp. The good news, they come up w/ a compact sub @NAMM. The bad news,- 2 EV 8" and the sub will be expensive. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 According to the specs,- I don´t believe any specs because these are BS in most cases. Consider Watts ... I agree that wattage is often a pretty useless spec, especially on integrated powered speakers. However, I think the -3 dB, - 6dB, and -10 db bass rolloff points, as well as the max SPL, do provide useful information for comparison, and those are the specs I was talking about. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I agree that wattage is often a pretty useless spec, especially on integrated powered speakers. However, I think the -3 dB, - 6dB, and -10 db bass rolloff points, as well as the max SPL, do provide useful information for comparison, and those are the specs I was talking about. Yes,- my post wasn´t critics of your´s. But when I read all the discussion on active speakers here, I wonder what is all about because the speakers were and are the weakest point in a signal chain always, so it was a general statement. We could discuss on class D amp design or others in endless threads and in the end we´ll find out class D is made for lightweight systems, but lightweight systems aren´t the best. The point is what´s more important,- lightweight and small or true specs and great sound. I swear,- I get a better result out of my Bryston amp, which is a heavy beast, and a passive speaker than out of a lightweight active speaker in class D design. That´s why I said you cannot change the physics. If you want real low end, you need a large cabinet. There are improvements in speaker design relativating the size of a cab by using electronics controlling the behaviour of a speaker and using different materials for speaker design, but that´s not only advantages. Most small PA speaker electronics fool the ear by boosting low mid around 150Hz. In the case of the EVs 8", that´s exactly what happens and the limiter kicks in very early when you try to get the most out of that speaker. I doubt it´s much different w/ other brands of active speakers. In fact, I hate these controller electronics because these are an additional ressource of failure sooner or later,- and they don´t force the manufacturer to use hi quality speakers ! It can be, the EV 8" actives might be very interesting if paired w/ the upcoming subwoofer. The SPL the 8"/1" compact 2 way speaker delivers w/ the wattage is great and it speaks for the speaker components built in, so I guess, we won´t be dissapointed by the sub and the overall combo,- but it will be a ~ 2.000.- EUR investment. The question is,- will I be able to find any other solution on the market in a 2 cabinet combo (instead of 3 or 4) w/ larger woofers for a lower price. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, I finally took the plunge and a pair of K10s landed this afternoon, ironically the day my ZXA1 made it back to Thomann for inspection and diagnosis. First impressions of the QSCs: * Very high quality materials and build. * Rather heavier than I expected, though not terribly so, and very compact. * Two IEC power leads supplied, but neither of them with a UK three-pin plug? Sorry, but at well over £600 each, I shouldn't have to go delving into my spares bag to try them out... * The tote bags are definitely worth it - high quality fabric and zips, compact design. Yes, £70 a time is kind of taking the piss but it's an extravagance you're not going to regret over time. And so to the sound - I briefly tested each speaker, with a mono feed from the Nord Piano... Firstly, these will go damn loud, no doubt about it. I turned the speaker gain control less than halfway and the Nord's up to about three o'clock and hastily reached for the Nord's control after dinking down a single note. I'm convinced these babies will handle whatever I need to push at them for band work. The bass extension is more noticeable that on the EV, as you'd probably expect for an 8in vs a 10in driver, and that's without switching to "DEEP" mode. The overall sound is very open and natural and the top end of the Nord's Imperial Grand sparkled like champagne. There IS a slightly honky quality to the mid-range but I suspect this is an inescapable downside of two-way plastic cabinet designs. It's certainly nowhere near as hard on the ears as my JBL EON10 G2s although a tad more aggressive than the ZXA1. But it's a close call. That said, I will probably stick to the ZXA1, once it's back, for most solo gigs, as it's lighter and more compact. So far, so good. Everything you've heard about these speakers appears to be true... Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillplaying Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks for the update and info. I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 http://mblguitars.com/images/catalog/category14.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 No, Dana, not that major!! Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 You call that a major upgrade? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UBfkLy8_bAc/TtetfxscDFI/AAAAAAAAPDg/7TcpYUzb53Y/s1600/Grateful+Dead+.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well yeah, but then I'd need a bigger van... Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, I finally took the plunge and a pair of K10s ...There IS a slightly honky quality to the mid-range but I suspect this is an inescapable downside of two-way plastic cabinet designs ... although a tad more aggressive than the ZXA1. Yes, that's exactly why I picked the EV over the K8. It didn't go as loud, but it reduced the honkiness, most notably in piano. Having followed this topic for a while, I'm not surprised by your evaluation, as I don't think I"ve ever seen a post from anyone who tried both who didn't come away thinking the EV sounded better. Being cheaper and lighter is a bonus. But yeah, you do trade off volume level, that's the reason you may need to go with a QSC. Or wanting the extra bottom of a 10 or 12. The QSCs aren't bad, nor are the RCFs which I might like a little better, but for sound quality alone, the EV beats them. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I agree... I own two EV SXA 360's and they sound amazing... '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400; Wurlitzer 200; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikjamesmusic Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I decided to sell my KC-550 and get a new setup last month. I decided on a QSC K10 and an Allen+Heath Zed10fx board. Cheap, light, sounds great. I wish I knew about the EV ZXA1 before I purchased the K10, but would it able to cut through a loud 10-piece funk group? Or stand alone for a private party piano/vocal gig in a large room? Also, I picked the k10 because of the 90 degree conical coverage. Looks like the ZX1a has the same coverage. 19 lbs. is hard to beat... atomicfunkproject.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The ZXA1 is spec'd at 6dB quieter. In general, 10dB less is considered half as loud, though many people say 6dB is half as loud. Would your QSC be loud enough with half the volume? Of course, that's a rough estimate, but it's about as close as you'll get objectively speaking. I think you should be happy with your K10 and not worry about the EV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikjamesmusic Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Agreed, learjeff. atomicfunkproject.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yeah, even a cursory initial play through the QSCs confirmed to me that they are way louder than the EV. For solo piano jobs, the EV would be first choice based on its smoother response, not to mention weight and size. I think the ZXA1 will be fine for foldback purposes too but with it breaking first time out in that role, I can't be sure until I get it back from Thomann. As I already have the JBL EON 10s as a solid, if unspectacular, monitoring set-up, there is part of me that wishes I'd have just plumped for the K10s straight off, as I'm sure I'd be perfectly happy with a single one for solo gigs. Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikjamesmusic Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's truly amazing that a keyboardist can have a professional setup that's so lightweight. Nord Electro+ZX1a+pedals and cables < 50 lbs. My kc-550 weighs 63 lbs. alone! Also, I'm convinced that lighter is truly better. The load in/out are a part of our gigs and overall experience, and the easier we can make that part, the more enjoyment we'll get out of playing music. atomicfunkproject.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's truly amazing that a keyboardist can have a professional setup that's so lightweight. Nord Electro+ZX1a+pedals and cables < 50 lbs. My kc-550 weighs 63 lbs. alone! Also, I'm convinced that lighter is truly better. The load in/out are a part of our gigs and overall experience, and the easier we can make that part, the more enjoyment we'll get out of playing music. Exactly. Tom "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So Aidan, you're still on a single EV ZXA1? Since the Nord piano sounds pretty good on mono, I haven't sprung for the 2nd Cab yet. Besides I'm not keen on adding weight. How many dB's does a second cab add? Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's truly amazing that a keyboardist can have a professional setup that's so lightweight. Yeah, no kidding, and cheap too. 1980: - Rhodes 73: 145 lbs, $800 new - CP70: 175 lbs, $4000 new - EV 12" wedge: 45 lbs, $250 (IIRC) - Yamaha P2100 power amp: 40 lbs, $650 - TEAC M2 mixer: 10 lbs, $300 - poly-synth: 50 lbs, $2000 and up (though, got cheaper soon after) Total: 465 lbs, $8000 -- WITHOUT a Hammond! Substitute the Hammond/Leslie for the CP70 and the price goes down a little, weight goes up a lot. Today: - Electro 3 73: 21 lbs, $1800 - polysynth choice: 30 lbs, $1500 and up (or cheaper ... lots of options) - Digital piano: 30 lbs, $1000 and up - ZXA-1: 20 lbs, $430 Total: 100 lbs, $4730 -- WITH a usable Hammond sound, and ignoring the fact that $1 then compares to about $4 now. Plus we get Wurli & Clav for free, and the piano sounds a lot more ... like a piano! $8000 was half a year's income (pre-tax) from my first real job, and it was a real good first job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How many dB's does a second cab add? Theoretically 6dB Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 SHow many dB's does a second cab add? 3 dB Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How many dBs do you need? How is three? http://bj.userimages.s3.amazonaws.com/31/31746/31746_92358.jpg http://bj.userimages.s3.amazonaws.com/31/31746/31746_92358.jpg http://bj.userimages.s3.amazonaws.com/31/31746/31746_92358.jpg "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've heard this debated before, and here is my understanding - correct me if I am wrong. Assume you kept the same overall amplifier power but doubled the speakers, you'd add 3dB. Doubling amplifier power adds another 3dB for a total of 6dB. Since they are powered speakers, by adding one, you are simultaneously doubling the speakers and the power. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 SHow many dB's does a second cab add? 3 dB Correct answer! Dan, your first part is correct, but the second isn't correct because the two amps are separate and the speakers are separate. Doubling the speakers ON ONE AMP at most doubles the wattage, because many amps deliver 2x watts into half the load impedance. (Many don't, so it's not a universal.) That gives you a 2x increase in wattage, which is 3dB. It's not the extra surface area, but the increase in watts that counts. Of course, we're assuming a constant speaker efficiency since they're the same speakers. If someone talking about driver design says you can get more SPL with a bigger cone, well, I'd be willing to believe that. Take a 100 Watt powered speaker, and add another 100W powered speaker, and you have ... 200 Watts! 2x increas in wattage, +3dB. There is no free lunch. In fact, when it comes to audio power versus volume, you're lucky to get a meal at all. Here's a test question: if you have a stereo amp that allows bridged operation, with two identical speakers that can handle the amp's power, is it better to run one speaker per amp, or run bridged but double the speakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How many dBs do you need? How is three? http://bj.userimages.s3.amazonaws.com/31/31746/31746_92358.jpghttp://bj.userimages.s3.amazonaws.com/31/31746/31746_92358.jpghttp://bj.userimages.s3.amazonaws.com/31/31746/31746_92358.jpg Also correct answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'm a neophyte when it comes to understanding the effects of increased volume. Would it be safe to say that if you have 1 powered speaker for Room size Y that if you now have 2 powered speakers, you will handle the same volume for Room size Y x 2? Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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