Why gig rates are so low....

[mcgoo]

...I'm waiting for an ad that says, "OPEN STAGE AT YOUR WEDDING!"

 

LOL. Actually, when the Mrs & I got married 24 1/2 years ago, our reception band was a jam session. So many of my friends in attendance were musicians, and we were poor, so instead of hiring some corporate band that woulda been playing "Celebration", we made it an open stage. It was actually a blast. Of course that has little to do with this thread, but that post caught my eye. Sorry.

[Bill H.]

As a guy who is both a keyboard player and DJ I'm rather enjoying the turn this thread has taken. Just to clear up a few misconceptions (in my experience anyway):

 

DJs and bands are not in competition with each other in today's club market. They cater to completely different clientele.

 

DJ's do not get paid less than band members. I make a lot more money when I'm a DJ than a keyboard player, and I often make more than entire bands do.

 

When I DJ it feels nothing like it does when I'm playing keyboards. It's more like being a good bartender. To be a good DJ you need good people skills, to be in tune with the demands of your room at all times, have vast knowledge of the raw materials at hand, and possess the ability to mix well and with flair.

[HammondDave]

DJ's as performers and artists? Another reason why I retired....

 

DJ's are great for dances... And I have heard some excellent DJ's.... Some mix songs with an amazing sensitivity... However, using other artists' creations to express yourself can hardly be called "art". (ducking from the can of worms that I just opened)

[HammondDave]

As a guy who is both a keyboard player and DJ I'm rather enjoying the turn this thread has taken. Just to clear up a few misconceptions (in my experience anyway):

 

DJs and bands are not in competition with each other in today's club market. They cater to completely different clientele.

 

DJ's do not get paid less than band members. I make a lot more money when I'm a DJ than a keyboard player, and I often make more than entire bands do.

 

When I DJ it feels nothing like it does when I'm playing keyboards. It's more like being a good bartender. To be a good DJ you need good people skills, to be in tune with the demands of your room at all times, have vast knowledge of the raw materials at hand, and possess the ability to mix well and with flair.

 

Great Post!

[Lord_Nord]

DJs and bands are not in competition with each other in today's club market. They cater to completely different clientele.

 

You make a very good point. Usually if a club/bar runs both DJ's and bands, they'll run DJ's during the week to attract a younger crowd and bands on the weekends to attract a wider demographic. Having said that, I think where DJ's have taken work away from bands is in the private party / event market.

[resigned]

In the near future, the lines between DJ's and musicians will blur to the point of disappearing altogether.

 

Years ago I decided to offer DJ services along with my piano services to capitalize on the wedding market and give my clients "two for one" options: live piano music for the reception/dinner and DJ music for the dance party. More work but my rates doubled.

 

Today I see more and more keyboards that interface with Ableton Live and other similar programs, which means my piano services and DJ services are merging in terms of technology and may merge in terms of performing as well.

 

Our future as entertainers means DJ's and musicians are destined to compete directly for the same money and eventually become more alike than different.

[Chris Link]

"Why gig rates are so low...."

 

The iron law of supply and demand.

 

When there are people willing to provide live music for next to nothing and alternatives (DJ or karaoke) exist, it's gonna be a tough sell. The local bands that command top dollar provide an extremely professional product for weddings, dances, corporate gigs, etc., draw their own crowd or typically some combination of the two. They are run like the businesses that they are.

 

The people that hire you for a club/bar gig don't care about your music any further than than how many drink-buying customers you can bring in.

[Pale]

If I'm being hired to play, I want to get at least $100. That's not to say I haven't worked for $75 or even $50...but if there are any expectations from my band to draw people..I want to get at least $100.

 

My normal take is definitely higher than my minimum.

 

 

Exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't say my asking price is 60$, that's just the limit where I'll rather stay at home (even if the gig is fun). There are gigs where 10x more money wouldn't make me go out of the house

 

It's not the same to play in a area with huge amount of clubs and millions of inhabitants and less populated areas where you have only a few clubs where you could play. And of course 100,$ or whatever amount we are talking about is valued differently in different countries, but still, it's interesting to see what is universally considered a low payed gig. At the moment it seems we are somewhere around 50-100$ ballpark.

 

 

[yannis D]

As a guy who is both a keyboard player and DJ I'm rather enjoying the turn this thread has taken. Just to clear up a few misconceptions (in my experience anyway):

 

DJs and bands are not in competition with each other in today's club market. They cater to completely different clientele.

 

DJ's do not get paid less than band members. I make a lot more money when I'm a DJ than a keyboard player, and I often make more than entire bands do.

 

When I DJ it feels nothing like it does when I'm playing keyboards. It's more like being a good bartender. To be a good DJ you need good people skills, to be in tune with the demands of your room at all times, have vast knowledge of the raw materials at hand, and possess the ability to mix well and with flair.

 

Exactelly my thoughts. I feel the same when i DJ or when i play live. I feel sorry whein i get more money when DJ-ing, but it's the truth and you can't beat the truth. In a good night I feel like a good bartender, and that's all about it.

BTW, when I play with my band I always try to get a friend DJ to play before and after our gig and during intermission. It always works fine:he's playing the right music for the audience and they're warmed up when we start our program. When we finish, he's there to carry the flame into the night. It's beautiful to see people dancing (or singing) in our program AND after it. So, no competition here

[J. Dan]

Business is business. If you make them money, they'll pay it. Our minimum if it's a place with house sound and lights is $2500, which ends up being $450 ea. Won't play for less than that, and we're booked pretty solid. That's minimum - sat we're getting $6k, ad we've made more. Took us a while to get there, and people still bitch at the price. But if it's profitable, they hire us. Most of them ALSO hire DJs for breaks, etc. We work with, not against, the DJ's. Everybody's gotta make a buck. We promote the good DJ's and they promote us.

[Analogaddict]

Business is business. If you make them money, they'll pay it. Our minimum if it's a place with house sound and lights is $2500, which ends up being $450 ea. Won't play for less than that, and we're booked pretty solid. That's minimum - sat we're getting $6k, ad we've made more. Took us a while to get there, and people still bitch at the price. But if it's profitable, they hire us. Most of them ALSO hire DJs for breaks, etc. We work with, not against, the DJ's. Everybody's gotta make a buck. We promote the good DJ's and they promote us.

 

That's how I do it too. I'm not as booked as you guys, but I'm slowly getting there. Having a niche product makes it so much easier to sell, usually it's easier to get across to clients with something very specific. A big factor these days is the dB limits in clubs, IIRC it's 100 dB(A) these days. A snare drum can easily go above that, and a DJ can ride the limit, delivering as much volume as possible. I'd rather hear a DJ playing consistently at 100 dB than a band struggling to keep levels down. We always sync our setlists with the DJ and try to make them a part of the show, we've done live crossfades and stuff to make it seamless. Still, I do find it a bit shocking how much an average DJ can make. Some of them really just press play...

[JeffLearman]

I understand the DJ hate, but frankly, it's a form of entertainment, and people enjoy it, just like karaoke. Furthermore, there's a wide range from someone who just spins CDs to someone who interacts, adds, and really puts on a show. Not a show I'm interested in, but I can see the talent required.

 

Even spinning CDs takes a bit of talent; no doubt we've all been to shows or weddings where the DJ wasn't talented & couldn't find the right fit & timing for the audience. I'd be terrible at it!

 

I don't have a minimum to play; I'll pay for free. But, I'm an amateur and I play for fun, and I don't gig very often. When gigs are more frequent, payment is required. For a 5-person blues band the minimum is around $200 for a bar gig; considerably more for a private party. I'm currently in an 8-person soul band that plays for fun, and we won't be charging commensurately for the number of people just yet but hopefully we can before long.

 

Concerning the $50 MIDI controller connected to a laptop: I don't care what the cost of the gear is. I care what the results are. If it's music I like, count me in. That said, I don't remember ever really enjoying an act that's mostly backing tracks.

 

Now, if it's an old-fashioned one-man-band with mostly acoustic instruments and no automation, that can be worth watching just for the amazement. The last time I saw that I think it was on the wharf in New Orleans in the 90's.

[Lord_Nord]

Business is business. If you make them money, they'll pay it. Our minimum if it's a place with house sound and lights is $2500, which ends up being $450 ea. Won't play for less than that, and we're booked pretty solid. That's minimum - sat we're getting $6k, ad we've made more. Took us a while to get there, and people still bitch at the price. But if it's profitable, they hire us. Most of them ALSO hire DJs for breaks, etc. We work with, not against, the DJ's. Everybody's gotta make a buck. We promote the good DJ's and they promote us.

 

Holy crap!!! $2500 ...$6000?! What kind of places are you playing that pay out that much?

 

So I checked out your website and I see that you guys are playing some great venues like Casinos etc. I assume you employ a booking agency?

 

[Jaime Chimuelo]

Disco DJ's were what made good musicians become more aware of their live sound quality, nothing has changed since the late 70's.

You can avoid getting your ass kicked by a DJ by producing a better product. Automate your lights and SFX, use quality gear and give the crowd what they want to hear.

That is assumming that you are doing this for the money.

I work in 2 different tribute groups as a sideman, and it's fun and the pay is quite good as the products are in demand.

 

I just returned from Nashville and saw the best live Texas Swing band I ever heard. A 9 piece band where the performers were paid a total of 1500 USD guarantee, versus the Door, whichever was greater.

 

It's a simple rule of supply and demand. Once you get a reputation, you can choose where you work and even make deals with the Manager/Owners.

If you bring in a crowd that has a reputation of drinking hard liquor and eating appetizers, you are their money maker.

Until then, you mean very little to them.

 

On the other hand, when I am in town and want to have a great time, I wait for the afterhour gigs where performers who have been tortured by playing the same thing 5 nights in a row come to cut loose. There's only free drinks, but those are my favorite jobs as they are 100% improv and only the dedicated come to listen and perform.

 

Otherwise I go to the gay bars where the drinks are free, so I can save up for a Manley SLAM.

[JeffLearman]

Otherwise I go to the gay bars where the drinks are free, so I can save up for a Manley SLAM.

You could probably get a manly slam for free there too.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

You're dead right about supply and demand, and also about ideally attracting heavy drinkers (hopefully the kind who don't bust the place up!)

[Synthoid]

Concerning the $50 MIDI controller connected to a laptop: I don't care what the cost of the gear is. I care what the results are. If it's music I like, count me in. That said, I don't remember ever really enjoying an act that's mostly backing tracks.

 

Normally with a setup like that, you're gonna get backing tracks with little or no talent. It also screams of "cheapskate" to me... but don't get me started.

[Garrafon]

Things are complicated in this neck of the woods - a small, largely depressed, mostly blue collar community.

 

Cover charges are pretty much unheard of. So, no band income from that. There are no large venues with sound, lights installed. They are pretty much smaller bars that bring in music and/or DJs. The really good dance/pop/disco bands can make some decent money (or used to), but most bands are scraping by. $100/man/night is considered EXTREMELY good and rare around here. Sad, but true. We won't play for less than $65.00 per person. But it seems that that could very well mean no gigs, which is all fine and well except we enjoy playing...but we don't want to play for free (or too low)...hence the "catch 22."

 

Our gigs so far for 2012 are much lower than 2011 for the above-stated reasons.

[Lord_Nord]

Things are complicated in this neck of the woods - a small, largely depressed, mostly blue collar community.

 

Our gigs so far for 2012 are much lower than 2011 for the above-stated reasons.

 

I feel your pain man. We have 1 gig booked in February and that's it. Fortunately, that one pays about $700 for 5 pieces. Anyhow, we are using the lack of gigs as an excuse to rehearse new songs to appeal to a younger demographic. We've also kinda kept the schedule clear because we are auditioning next week to go on the road with Doug Church (famous Elvis tribute artist)...so if we nail that, then we don't have to worry =D

[Garrafon]

we are using the lack of gigs as an excuse to rehearse new songs to appeal to a younger demographic.

 

That's our other "problem." We have little interest in playing other than the stuff we like to play (snobs I guess). We understand that the new "going out" crowd is younger and wants to hear the newer stuff.

 

Which brings to mind a funny story. We played a corporate holiday party a few weeks back. We are playing a mix of stuff from the 50s to 90s. Mostly class rock-ish type stuff. We had gotten requests for Billy Joel (no problem), Rolling Stones (no problem), and the like. So, this younger girl (20s)comes up to us and asks "do you guys know any hip hop?" And I Say to myself "does it f'ing sound like we play hip hop?" Of course, "sorry, we don't" is what came out of my mouth.

[B3bluesman59]

I live in the Palm Springs area and we have over 100 golf course/country clubs in the Coachella valley. I do a solo 50s, 60s,70s piano/vocal act primarily for country clubs and private parties and never work for less that $300 a night (3 hours, food and drinks included). I also fill in with two classic rock bands when they need keys and usually make only $100 a gig(4 hours, no food, no drinks) I make much more money doing the private country clubs but also love playing in a four or five piece band. Two different worlds, two different paychecks.

[Jason Stanfield]

Bands that undercut the going rates really hurt the local scene, but the good thing is that they're usually worth what they get paid -- not much at all -- and aren't around long.

[JeffLearman]

Bands that undercut the going rates really hurt the local scene, but the good thing is that they're usually worth what they get paid -- not much at all -- and aren't around long.

Yeah, that's us!

 

We have fun and the audience digs it, but we couldn't get them to come time after time.

[StanC]

Well this thread has taken a couple of different directions - here comes another:

I play in a couple of different bands, one of which mostly plays for free. Why is that? Benefits. Why do I do it? 3 reasons: First I enjoy playing for any audience; Second I do not depend on the income to pay any bills (day job does that); and third all are benefits for good causes, Cancer research, Christmas Toys for Kids, Scholarships funds. Would any of the foregoing who "would not leave the house for less than $XX" consider that?

[Synthoid]

I play in a couple of different bands, one of which mostly plays for free. Why is that? Benefits... Would any of the foregoing who "would not leave the house for less than $XX" consider that?

 

Yes, our band has done freebies for fundraisers. We like to support non-profits once in awhile; of course it would be nice if they would also give us some leads to paying gigs. Sigh.

[ProfD]

Gig rates are low for those who aren't playing the right type of music and/or do not have a following i.e. folks willing to spend money.

 

Of course, there are club owners and promoters willing to pay musicians to provide background noise too. But, they have the option of paying DJs.

 

Otherwise, regardless of location, artists and bands will get paid very well if they have the right image/concept/vibe and marketing and promotion.

 

If musicians really want to make money, in addition to practicing their instrument(s), they should spend an equal amount of time learning how to sell their music.

 

Sure, there are folks who get paid to sell music but they look for a commodity i.e. a hot artist/band capable of making money.

[dazzjazz]

All this talk reminds me of this joke:

 

Two DJs go to see a movie. As they leave the cinema, one turns to the other and says: "Wow, great movie - I really enjoyed it." The other replies: "Yeah! I wonder who the projectionist was?"

[Griffinator]

Well this thread has taken a couple of different directions - here comes another:

I play in a couple of different bands, one of which mostly plays for free. Why is that? Benefits. Why do I do it? 3 reasons: First I enjoy playing for any audience; Second I do not depend on the income to pay any bills (day job does that); and third all are benefits for good causes, Cancer research, Christmas Toys for Kids, Scholarships funds. Would any of the foregoing who "would not leave the house for less than $XX" consider that?

 

I wouldn't, and here's why:

 

If you're dealing with a local organization,

 

1) They are usually a lot more efficient at getting you, a sound man, and 9 other bands to show up for free than they are at promoting well enough to get actual bodies into the audience, likely because their promotional budget is the same as their entertainment budget - zero.

 

2) You may have had good luck with the liasons regarding time slot, load-in and load-out time, sound check, etc, but this is usually a disaster in my experience, further exacerbated by the quality of sound man usually attracted to do these shows. I attended a benefit where the sound man literally abandoned the board for two entire band sets to go drinking. The first band suffered through feedback most of their set (which, shockingly, didn't bring him back to the board) and the second one, who had pre-arranged for their singer to have a wireless mic, ended up having to ditch that mic and swipe the guitarist's mic (leaving them with only 1 backing voc) because her mic was off at the board and sound boy wasn't there to do anything about it.

 

3) Once you play one of these local freebies, everybody and their brother has a freebie they want you to play to raise money for some obscure cause, paying medical bills for some person you've never met, etc... and not only are they worse nightmares than the local organization shows (because there is NO organization at ALL), but they get really pissed off at you if you turn them down, usually citing your previous commitments as their excuse.

 

On the other hand, if you're working with a national/international charity,

 

1) Everybody working for the organization is getting paid, from the ticket-taker to the CEO (120 non-profs paid their CEO's at least half a million, including 14 million-plus salaries last year) - but they are notorious for beating everyone outside of the organization up to "donate" whatever it is they bring to the table, be it the band, the caterer, the bouncer at the door, or the beer vendor.

 

2) All the PR they promise you? Don't hold your breath waiting. You might get a mention on the back of the local division's website, if you're lucky. Once upon a time, they'd at least send you a form letter saying "thanks for helping out". Most don't even do that anymore.

 

Oh, and did I mention, if something happens to your gear, tough shit. What's that? Our organizer tripped over a mic stand and knocked over your keyboard stand, cracking the case on your brand new SK-3 and punching a hole through the woofer cone on your QSC K12? Hey, we're real sorry about that. Pay for it? Are you kidding? I mean, he didn't do it on PURPOSE! OK, well he was a little drunk, but STILL! It's for a GOOD CAUSE!

 

 

Nope, the only "free" show I'd ever do these days would be a backyard BBQ type of situation, where I'm already really good friends with the host, his beer cooler is open for the band, as is the food table, and we're not having the whip cracked on us to set up, play, tear down, and GTFO on a schedule. That's my kind of free gig.

[mcgoo]

Well this thread has taken a couple of different directions - here comes another:

I play in a couple of different bands, one of which mostly plays for free. Why is that? Benefits. Why do I do it? 3 reasons: First I enjoy playing for any audience; Second I do not depend on the income to pay any bills (day job does that); and third all are benefits for good causes, Cancer research, Christmas Toys for Kids, Scholarships funds. Would any of the foregoing who "would not leave the house for less than $XX" consider that?

 

I wouldn't, and here's why:

 

If you're dealing with a local organization,

 

1) They are usually a lot more efficient at getting you, a sound man, and 9 other bands to show up for free than they are at promoting well enough to get actual bodies into the audience, likely because their promotional budget is the same as their entertainment budget - zero.

 

2) You may have had good luck with the liasons regarding time slot, load-in and load-out time, sound check, etc, but this is usually a disaster in my experience, further exacerbated by the quality of sound man usually attracted to do these shows. I attended a benefit where the sound man literally abandoned the board for two entire band sets to go drinking. The first band suffered through feedback most of their set (which, shockingly, didn't bring him back to the board) and the second one, who had pre-arranged for their singer to have a wireless mic, ended up having to ditch that mic and swipe the guitarist's mic (leaving them with only 1 backing voc) because her mic was off at the board and sound boy wasn't there to do anything about it.

 

3) Once you play one of these local freebies, everybody and their brother has a freebie they want you to play to raise money for some obscure cause, paying medical bills for some person you've never met, etc... and not only are they worse nightmares than the local organization shows (because there is NO organization at ALL), but they get really pissed off at you if you turn them down, usually citing your previous commitments as their excuse.

 

On the other hand, if you're working with a national/international charity,

 

1) Everybody working for the organization is getting paid, from the ticket-taker to the CEO (120 non-profs paid their CEO's at least half a million, including 14 million-plus salaries last year) - but they are notorious for beating everyone outside of the organization up to "donate" whatever it is they bring to the table, be it the band, the caterer, the bouncer at the door, or the beer vendor.

 

2) All the PR they promise you? Don't hold your breath waiting. You might get a mention on the back of the local division's website, if you're lucky. Once upon a time, they'd at least send you a form letter saying "thanks for helping out". Most don't even do that anymore.

 

Oh, and did I mention, if something happens to your gear, tough shit. What's that? Our organizer tripped over a mic stand and knocked over your keyboard stand, cracking the case on your brand new SK-3 and punching a hole through the woofer cone on your QSC K12? Hey, we're real sorry about that. Pay for it? Are you kidding? I mean, he didn't do it on PURPOSE! OK, well he was a little drunk, but STILL! It's for a GOOD CAUSE!

 

 

Nope, the only "free" show I'd ever do these days would be a backyard BBQ type of situation, where I'm already really good friends with the host, his beer cooler is open for the band, as is the food table, and we're not having the whip cracked on us to set up, play, tear down, and GTFO on a schedule. That's my kind of free gig.

 

A voice of experience, no doubt. Unfortunately, this is far too accurate.

[Jaime Chimuelo]

Well I can add even more baloney that happens, but as most of us are old enough to realize a little corruption is good grease for the wheels.

My first gig in Vegas was in 1984 and we turned a few entertainers into agents as we were the very first trio to make 5 player pay, and the first Yahama QX-1. It was so long ago that I remember having trouble using MIDI Prgm.Chng. messages on the PCM70 as it took a second to load a preset.

Ended up using a crappy Alesis MIDI Effects unit that actually had a cool gritty sound.

Anyways the Casino just had a budget back then for 4000 USD per shift, and assumed there was always a 4 or 5 piece band, and that's why people fell over themselves to gig at various Strip Bars.

But after a few weeks the Entertainment Director realized we had no agent, no overhead and were walking out with 1325 per member, after tipping the cashier for cashing the check.

We ended up getting all sorts of extra weeks and work as word spread that this hot sounding trio with a babe singer that smoked, and was stacked, and would kick back 15% of the gross.

So as evil as ED's and agents are, they always come in handy as long as the pie gets split properly and you have something they want.......Sure we sounded great compared to the Vegas Crooners and spoiled has beens, but we now had real value. The ED could take home more than his salary by making sure we worked there.

Still 1175 everyweek and all you could phuck and drink..........it definately was a sore dick deal, couldn't be beat.

So when working with lawyers, agents or Entertainment directors, it's good to be amongst the crooks. An agent that isn't a skilled liar isn't worth the percentage.

[Pale]

$100/man/night is considered EXTREMELY good and rare around here. Sad, but true. We won't play for less than $65.00 per person.

 

It's about the same around here, the only difference being you can get more than 100$/night if you are playing solo,duo or maybe trio. Everything more will get you <100$. Exception are wedding gigs which are around 200-400$/person, but I don't do those since none of my bands are really into the wedding music genre.

Recently I formed a 4 piece unplugged (2 acoustic guitars, vocal, keys) band. I just made a deal to do a 60$/night/person, 2 regular gigs per month in a small bar. 2 secure gigs every month are better than nothing I guess.

The problem is that owners of such bars can't afford more money for a 4 piece band on a week night, most of the people in there are there just for 1 drink and they probably hardly break even at the end of the night. The only solution would be to cut band members and do a duo/trio gig, but it's more fun this way. It isn't everything about money.