How to play organ in a blues band?

[CrimsonianKing]

Classic blues organ "ballad" sound at 2:00 (Duke Pearson??) with BB King in 1868.

 

Damn, he that old?

[Steve Nathan]

I don't know why anyone would give you shit for this. idk Seems pretty rock-solid. thu

 

Steve, you are of course very right, but not all of us are built the same way, I could really use a little help to lift me

up a bit to become a better player.

I guess that I am not completely alone as there are quite a few

music teachers in the world ?

smile

cheers

otto

 

 

This post is like so many others I've responded to, and each time I've taken some heat for my position.

You can cook a fine meal by following someone's recipe book to the letter, but you won't learn why it tastes good. Great cooks become great cooks by tasting, smelling and experimenting with flavors, spices and ingredients.

Reading about Blues, searching Hammond registration web pages or asking your friends which way to turn the knobs on your synth will not make you a better musician, anymore than buying the same brushes Picasso used will make you a better painter.

Using your eyes so your ears don't have to work as hard undermines your progress in a very clear one step forward, two steps backward way.

I am honestly trying to help (again), but I usually get shut down by a majority that believes there is no harm in providing "starting points". If your goal is simply to become a more credible imitator, maybe so. If you have a genuine desire to get a deeper understanding of an art form, then NIKE has it right. "Just Do It".

 

 

[telecaster]

Steve, no offence meant, honestly!

 

You are right all the way, what I mean to say is that I feel I need a little help to understand better how to lay some good harmonies behind the singer and the lead guitar.

On every gig I do get a lot of compliments for my solos, but I feel that I am stuck into a pattern with my chords that I struggle to get out of.

I am self teached, so I guess I have gotten into some "bad habits".

A real living teacher or a well written instructional book could bring me out of the mud.

 

So again, my reply was not at all about giving you any heat, just stating where I am, at the moment.

 

I will never become a top ten organ player, but I think that with a little help I will be able to evolve.

 

cheers

otto

[orangefunk]

This post is like so many others I've responded to, and each time I've taken some heat for my position.

 

Hmm.. I didn't read it that way... seemed quite a sincere answer to me.

 

Oh and I hope this isn't read as "heat"

 

 

 

[JeffLearman]

My weakness is solos. Once I've played both my licks ...

 

Man, you have 2??

Lucky!

 

Any source of good ideas is a good one. But it's what you do with it that counts, and you have to spend a lot of time working out your own voicings, leading lines, and overall approach.

 

My biggest limitation is that just about all I do is stuff that I worked out myself or just came naturally. I've never spent much time studying, other than to copy a piano part here and there for a cover. I'm sure I could expand my scope significantly by doing a bit of woodshedding & sit down with some books or videos. But I just play for the fun of it and only occasionally do I find that stuff fun.

 

As a case in point, back in the early 80's I had a housemate who was a pro bass player on the local circuit, and a naturally very good musician on bass and other instruments. At one point he decided he wanted to learn the thumb & snap style that was popular at the time. He got an instruction book, studied the text & tabulature, and slowly worked his way through it.

 

I remember laughing at the beginning because it seemed like such a "white boy" approach, and his first attempts sounded that way too. But he was dedicated and consistent, and about a year later, he not only had internalized the technique, he'd gotten to the point where he could apply his natural musicianship, taste, and personal style to it and he sounded badass as all hell. And yet, still him and not a copy of any particular bassist.

 

Steve is totally right in what he says about needing to experiment and express oneself. I believe there's a lot to be learned by studying the work of others, in any way that works for you. But use this as starting points, not destinations.

 

Great cooks come from good cooks, and there are few good cooks who didn't learn a lot from the recipes of great cooks. However, great cooks don't stick to those recipes. My son is a chef, and I'm looking forward to the day he can outcook his mother. I don't think I've ever seen her follow a recipe without making her own changes.

[Outkaster]

I don't know why anyone would give you shit for this. idk Seems pretty rock-solid. thu

 

Steve, you are of course very right, but not all of us are built the same way, I could really use a little help to lift me

up a bit to become a better player.

I guess that I am not completely alone as there are quite a few

music teachers in the world ?

smile

cheers

otto

 

 

This post is like so many others I've responded to, and each time I've taken some heat for my position.

You can cook a fine meal by following someone's recipe book to the letter, but you won't learn why it tastes good. Great cooks become great cooks by tasting, smelling and experimenting with flavors, spices and ingredients.

Reading about Blues, searching Hammond registration web pages or asking your friends which way to turn the knobs on your synth will not make you a better musician, anymore than buying the same brushes Picasso used will make you a better painter.

Using your eyes so your ears don't have to work as hard undermines your progress in a very clear one step forward, two steps backward way.

I am honestly trying to help (again), but I usually get shut down by a majority that believes there is no harm in providing "starting points". If your goal is simply to become a more credible imitator, maybe so. If you have a genuine desire to get a deeper understanding of an art form, then NIKE has it right. "Just Do It".

 

 

Exactly. If someone is going to make you read through a lot of tutorials and have search through dozens of postings it's not worth it, I know I would not read it. Posting a lot of theory is not what the average user needs. Unless your really looking for something specific just use your ears and sit in with people a lot.

[JeffLearman]

The other is the same trick I use more on piano, which is to take the standard 7-3-5 voicing for a dominant chord, and walk it up and down the scale 2 steps (3 chords altogether). Also, omitting the middle of the three notes.

thread - learjeff - a little thick here - can you (re)explain what you mean with up and down the scale 2 steps?

 

thanks!!

In C, over the I chord: C7 F Gm F C7

 

C7 = Bb-E-G

F = C-F-A

Gm = D-G-Bb

 

Admittedly this works better on piano. When omitting the middle note, it's easy to legato finger the top note, but not the bottom one, but that's the sound I shoot for. As usual, they don't have to be played as chords; you can play one note (especially the middle one) then add the others a moment later and any number of simple variations.

 

Here's another one, real simple, and using the 6th. In C, play 3561 (E-G-A-C) on I, and just move your thumb down to the Eb, which is a dominant 9th chord in F. For the G, play this same voicing but as G9 (F-A-B-D). Once you have these simple voicings down, work out different variations for playing them, such as holding down the two outer notes and alternating which of the inner ones, grace notes, etc. I especially like this voicing for swing.

 

For a large part, blues is about taking really simple constructs and finding your own ways to vary them to suit the mood of the piece, and complement the dynamics of the other instruments.

 

Another more organ-specific trick: a lot of blues guitarists tend to be strong on the downbeat and leave more room later in the measure. I often like to do the opposite, fading in on the expression pedal as the guitar is fading out. As always, it's important not to overdo this; we don't want to totally level out the dynamics, we want to leave holes where holes belong. But we can take advantage of the space left by the guitarist(s). Horns often fill this roll, so I usually take another approach when playing with horns.

[JeffLearman]

Telecaster -- I should have mentioned this earlier. Check out the local blues jams and see if any has keyboard players you like. It's a great way to meet other musicians and exchange ideas, and get extra practice.

 

I find that I have a hard time practicing "playing keyboards" at home. I'll often have a part I need to learn on piano or organ for a particular tune, and that's no issue. But I rarely set up both keyboards (to play organ and piano together) and practice that at home; without the rest of the band it's just not very meaningful.

 

So, I like to have both set up at blues jams, to work on my ability to play piano and organ at the same time.

[JeffLearman]

So, before you take any of my advice over Steve's, you should find out who he is and who I am. (Hint: I am a dude who plays on the weekends for stupidly small amounts of money.)

Yeah, and I'm a guy who plays at jams and occasional weekday gigs, usually for free! Grain of salt time.

[spazzkey]

The other is the same trick I use more on piano, which is to take the standard 7-3-5 voicing for a dominant chord, and walk it up and down the scale 2 steps (3 chords altogether). Also, omitting the middle of the three notes.

thread - learjeff - a little thick here - can you (re)explain what you mean with up and down the scale 2 steps?

 

thanks!!

In C, over the I chord: C7 F Gm F C7

 

C7 = Bb-E-G

F = C-F-A

Gm = D-G-Bb

 

Admittedly this works better on piano. When omitting the middle note, it's easy to legato finger the top note, but not the bottom one, but that's the sound I shoot for. As usual, they don't have to be played as chords; you can play one note (especially the middle one) then add the others a moment later and any number of simple variations.

 

Here's another one, real simple, and using the 6th. In C, play 3561 (E-G-A-C) on I, and just move your thumb down to the Eb, which is a dominant 9th chord in F. For the G, play this same voicing but as G9 (F-A-B-D). Once you have these simple voicings down, work out different variations for playing them, such as holding down the two outer notes and alternating which of the inner ones, grace notes, etc. I especially like this voicing for swing.

 

For a large part, blues is about taking really simple constructs and finding your own ways to vary them to suit the mood of the piece, and complement the dynamics of the other instruments.

 

Another more organ-specific trick: a lot of blues guitarists tend to be strong on the downbeat and leave more room later in the measure. I often like to do the opposite, fading in on the expression pedal as the guitar is fading out. As always, it's important not to overdo this; we don't want to totally level out the dynamics, we want to leave holes where holes belong. But we can take advantage of the space left by the guitarist(s). Horns often fill this roll, so I usually take another approach when playing with horns.

 

thanks learjeff! great ideas - so what do you do when you've got horns filling?

[orangefunk]

So, before you take any of my advice over Steve's, you should find out who he is and who I am. (Hint: I am a dude who plays on the weekends for stupidly small amounts of money.)

Yeah, and I'm a guy who plays at jams and occasional weekday gigs, usually for free! Grain of salt time.

 

Same here... as the OP and I live in the same city I'll be sure to get him involved in this if I can... Saying that... it can be pretty scary sometimes... Is a big difference between playing the 3 chord blues and then someone calling Streetlife by the Crusaders or some of the more involved Stevie Wonder numbers.. (usually I find they aren't strictly jams per se but more of an semi-organised session)

 

But as long as you hang in there for the pieces you know you can do and not treat it as a competition its okay... the level is quite high but the experience is better than all those books I have on my shelf that I have never read...

[CEB]

If you are fortunate to have some face to face lessons with a organ player it can really shorten any learning curve. It doesn't take many .... one or two good sessions with a open player who can show you stuff may be all you need. A guy named Darel DeCounter sat with me a few afternoons and taught basically how to approach the Hammond.

[JeffLearman]

Orange, where I play it's usually too many 3-chord tunes that sound too much alike, and I'm always thrilled when someone starts anything out of the ordinary, though I'd be lost in any nontrivial Stevie tune etc. I'd still like to see more variety.

 

... so what do you do when you've got horns filling?

Well, the band with horns is a soul band and we only play a few blues tunes. But, sometimes I'll do similar swells but more muted on the verses where the horns are doing something else. On verses where the horns are swelling, sometimes I'll swell with them if it's swelling up to a crescendo. Otherwise what I do depends on what the tune asks for. Sometimes NOTHING! (I'm trying more and more to let a verse go with NO keyboards so that I can come in and make a difference for a later verse or chorus. Sitting a whole verse or V/C pair takes real self control, for me.)

 

If the guitar isn't being too busy, I'll play chords with moving lead lines (if that's the way to put it ...) for example, holding the lower notes of chord, playing a melodic sort of line with my ring finger/pinky leading to the next chord. This is actually easier than it sounds. Other times, stabby chords to counterpoint some rythmic element.

 

I like to echo parts others are playing. Sometimes bits of their lines before they do to sort of foreshadow it, other times an immediate rhythmic echo. Not like an echoplex, but repeating the last bit of a phrase, or a counterpoint to the last bit of a phrase, in a pause in someone else's solo or lead line or even the vocals sometimes. All of this done carefully not to distract attention from the main course, of course. At least, that's what I'm aiming for. I won't say I always hit the target!

[J_tour]

1. Don't "jump" from chord to chord, voice-lead by moving each chord tone the smallest possible distance. It sounds self-evident but you'd be suprised... I.e. 3 moves to 7, etc. This is the same as it applies to piano voice leading, or any voice leading for that matter.

 

2. When holding a pad, make sure you don't just play through the entire song. Everyone loves chocolate, but you don't want to eat it every day....

 

3. Volume pedal, volume pedal, volume pedal. Assuming the band you're playing with is dynamic (and we hope it is!) make sure you're aware of your volume relative to the overall dynamics of the band/song. The biggest mistake new organ players make is that they slam down the pedal and play at full volume for the whole song. The masters apply the pedal, in conjunction with the drawbars, in a way that adds character, tension, and release. These things can't be taught, but they can be learned after years of being yelled at on stage...

 

I'm not in the same league as a lot of people here (I'm good enough to make a living, but not anywhere near a virtuoso, especially on Hammond), but this deserves a requote. The expression pedal was hands down the hardest thing to learn how to "play" once I learned how everything else could be made to sound good. It's not a piano -- it's an organ, its own instrument, and rock and roll blues piano is all about hitting the percussive rhythmic things, right? (Kind of)! Same with the organ but you can't just hit the organ and get the rhythm.

 

There's some good Jimmy Witherspoon with Jack McDuff out there -- I don't want to be a jerk, but maybe you're overthinking it a little bit. Complementing the group doesn't mean giving up your right to party. That's how I think of the role of Hammond in a heavier context -- just giving up ego and being the role of an orchestrator.

[Bottom End]

Paul Shaefer's (sp?) work with the Blues Brothers and Reese Wynans with Stevie Ray Vaughn offer some great ideas for playing the blues.

 

Allen Batts on the album "Showdown" shows how to accompany three guitarists whether fast or slow and grooving.

[rockkeys]

I do not really struggle too much with solos (learning all the time) by I find it really hard to find the best or right chords sometime

If you're having trouble finding chords, I tend to question how good your solos are.

[HammondDave]

Lots of very good advice here... Especially the drawbar and volume tips, which I have used since I started playing blues many years ago....

 

I also studied Greg Allman's playing as the first serious band I was in was an Allman's Bros cover band...

 

One final bit of advice for becoming a great blues player...

 

1. Let your teeth rot

 

2. Become an alcoholic

 

3. Change your name to a combination of: a. A disability. b. A fruit. c. A name

 

Like... Blind Melon Johnson

[CEB]

I played downtown blues and bar b Q thing probably 3 years ago or so. One of the other acts there was a organ player named Bruce Katz. He may be worth a listen. He did some nice stright up blues organ. The organ grinder is the featured instrumentalist so the organ is up front and center. It would make for some nice listening examples.

[Musicale]

Ah the blues...

There are 2 blues scales, the major and the minor. The major blues scale is used primarily on the I chord, the minor blues scale is used on the IV and V as well as the turnarounds. The major blues scale is:

1,2,b3,3,5,6,1

The minor blues scale is:

1,b3,4,#4,5,b7,1

 

Don't use the major 7 voicing in blues. Then it sounds like Tighten Up.

Listen to a lot of Blues records, like Chicago blues from the 1940-1970's. There is a huge wealth of stuff in that discography.

 

Musicale

 

 

 

[spazzkey]

Orange, where I play it's usually too many 3-chord tunes that sound too much alike, and I'm always thrilled when someone starts anything out of the ordinary, though I'd be lost in any nontrivial Stevie tune etc. I'd still like to see more variety.

 

... so what do you do when you've got horns filling?

Well, the band with horns is a soul band and we only play a few blues tunes. But, sometimes I'll do similar swells but more muted on the verses where the horns are doing something else. On verses where the horns are swelling, sometimes I'll swell with them if it's swelling up to a crescendo. Otherwise what I do depends on what the tune asks for. Sometimes NOTHING! (I'm trying more and more to let a verse go with NO keyboards so that I can come in and make a difference for a later verse or chorus. Sitting a whole verse or V/C pair takes real self control, for me.)

 

If the guitar isn't being too busy, I'll play chords with moving lead lines (if that's the way to put it ...) for example, holding the lower notes of chord, playing a melodic sort of line with my ring finger/pinky leading to the next chord. This is actually easier than it sounds. Other times, stabby chords to counterpoint some rythmic element.

 

I like to echo parts others are playing. Sometimes bits of their lines before they do to sort of foreshadow it, other times an immediate rhythmic echo. Not like an echoplex, but repeating the last bit of a phrase, or a counterpoint to the last bit of a phrase, in a pause in someone else's solo or lead line or even the vocals sometimes. All of this done carefully not to distract attention from the main course, of course. At least, that's what I'm aiming for. I won't say I always hit the target!

 

thanks Learjeff! and thanks to all of you with input here - it's a never-ending journey we're on and mine is certainly richer for your comments...

 

on occasion I play a tuesday night jam with as many as four guitarists, sometimes even a second keyboard, as well as 1-2 saxes and multiple vocalists and a rhythm section - sometimes hard to get in word edge-wise so to speak, always interesting to see how I can best complement what's going on - I really appreciate the comments about sitting out a verse, I can see where that's coming from - definitely on my list for next week

[Musicale]

Although a lot of the 3 chord blues tunes are out there, some of the early especially Chicago blues have these very distinctive "riffs" that are played during the tune, usually by 1-2 guitars, sometimes keys, that just give the tune interest and structure. It's I guess like a secondary structure to the tune. This is added so it does not get the sounds the same all the time comments. In addition less is better.

 

Musicale