16251 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Ok, so I bought an Avantgrand N2. I've never owned a really nice grand piano so it's such a pleasure to have my fingers adjusting to this action. My question is why can't manufacturers develop a weighted action that doesn't bottom out like FP7, FP7f, FP4f and any other brand, which I'm not a familiar with? Don't these guys play grand pianos and isn't that the base model that they're trying to emulate. A grand piano is so soft. Except for weight the only other keyboard I feel the same is the FP4. Shouldn't you be able to close your eyes and think you're playing real grand action on all pricy DP's? AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 If you saw the action of the N2 removed, you'd probably realize why it's different than the portable digital pianos on the market. You realize it's a pretty involved mechanical system, yes? I was able to see a 2-octave section of the Avant Grand action that had been removed from a damaged N3, and just those 2 octaves probably weighed in at 20 lbs. Oh, and the vertical height from bottom of the keybed to the top of the hammer throw (and the optical array) was probably 7-8". Face it, trying to replicate such a system in a 2" high cabinet, and make it light enough so the masses would consider it portable, is pretty much impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Decent grand pianos cost $45,000+ for a reason. The closest I've played ( in terms of feel alone) is the MP8II but it's 80 pounds not including the case. But trying to capture the natural resonace of the harp and soundboard is another thing. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 ... Face it, trying to replicate such a system in a 2" high cabinet, and make it light enough so the masses would consider it portable, is pretty much impossible. Amen. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 kanker has a theory that most DP keyboards have hollow keys, so all that strikes the felt at the bottom are the two vertical sides. Real pianos and the Kawai MPs have solid keys. The force is distributed through felt on the entire bottom of the key instead of the key sides "cutting through" the felt and digging in deeper and thus harder. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16251 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 I understand the AG is a real wood acoustic action. If kanker's theory about keys being hollow...then how come the FP4 is so soft when it hits the bottom? AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 The closest to a real grand action ever put into a portable keyboard is the Wurlitzer electric piano action. They can get 64 keys into a fairly portable 56 lb piano, with a good bit of significant weight tied up in the heavy reed mechanism. So it's not entirely out of the question, although the vertical size necessary is still an issue. Moe --- "I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker http://www.hotrodmotm.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I understand the AG is a real wood acoustic action. If kanker's theory about keys being hollow...then how come the FP4 is so soft when it hits the bottom? I wouldn't know without seeing it. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Shouldn't you be able to close your eyes and think you're playing real grand action on all pricy DP's? I think Yamaha has gotten closer than anyone with the CP1 and CP5. It's the best action in a DP less than $5,000. And don't let the Roland faithful tell you any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 The closest to a real grand action ever put into a portable keyboard is the Wurlitzer electric piano action. Yamaha CP70/80? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 The closest to a real grand action ever put into a portable keyboard is the Wurlitzer electric piano action. Yamaha CP70/80? Right! -- if you call that portable! (I did, I used one for 20 years, but I wouldn't call it that today.) Like the AvantGrand, the CP70 has a real piano action in it. No way you'd see that in today's stage digitals, where anything over 40 lbs is considered heavy. I haven't seen the insides of a Wurli action, but frankly I find a Rhodes action more expressive (albeit slower). The Wurli is too light. It feel a lot like an Electro, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Shouldn't you be able to close your eyes and think you're playing real grand action on all pricy DP's? I think Yamaha has gotten closer than anyone with the CP1 and CP5. It's the best action in a DP less than $5,000. And don't let the Roland faithful tell you any different. Arguably, you are right that the new CPs are near the top of the pile. But the OP was talking about whether an action bottoms out hard or more naturally. I think the CP5 bottoms out rather hard. The last Kawai DP I played was an MP8II, and before than an MP9500. Comparing the CP to those, I'd say the Kawai is much more natural feeling. The CP sounds better, and has more subtle dynamics. I'm pretty happy with the CP5, but I wish it had the Kawai action. Of course, then it would weigh more. Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 The Wurli is too light. It feel a lot like an Electro, to me. I don't find them similar at all. The Wurli lacks the spring of the Electro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Arguably, you are right that the new CPs are near the top of the pile. But the OP was talking about whether an action bottoms out hard or more naturally. I think the CP5 bottoms out rather hard. The last Kawai DP I played was an MP8II, and before than an MP9500. Comparing the CP to those, I'd say the Kawai is much more natural feeling. It's certainly less hard than Yamaha's GH action. And while the Kawai action may have a softer landing, I also find it less realistic than the CP action. It's too sluggish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillplaying Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 ... No way you'd see that in today's stage digitals, where anything over 40 lbs is considered heavy. I'm all for that. I'd hate to back to what we used to gig with. Like Bruce sings it so well in "Thunder Road" ... I ain't that young any more. I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throbert Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I don't get it, with such a plethora of DP's on the market and always the post of, OH me Oh my I can't find my Piano pie. There's a s#@t load of weighted actions out there and you can't find one that suits your taste. Well just get the acoustic your used to and have your mommy shlep it to the gig for you. Triton Extreme 76, Kawai ES3, GEM-RPX, HX3/Drawbar control, MSI Z97 MPower/4790K, Lynx Aurora 8/MADI/AES16e, OP-X PRO, Ptec, Komplete. Ashley MX-206. future MOTU M64 RME Digiface Dante for Mon./net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JpScoey Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Shouldn't you be able to close your eyes and think you're playing real grand action on all pricy DP's? Putting things as simply as possible, there is one major reason why most DP's, in their current format, will never give you that acoustic piano experience, & that is... length of the key. Acoustic piano keys are LONG - up to around 24" & beyond on a large grand, & pivot on a (roughly) central fulcrum point, on the appropriately named 'balance rail'... ie: up to 12" + from the front of the key. The 'pivot point' on a DP is nowhere near that, so will inevitably feel different, beacause the key doesn't have either the balance, or the shallower angle of 'dip' when it bottoms-out. This interesting post on Piano World Forums should help to visualise this better - http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1587661/1.html John. some stuff on myspace Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7 Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 What about the Korg RH3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Shouldn't you be able to close your eyes and think you're playing real grand action on all pricy DP's? Nope. Several forumites have provided the logistical reasons for the shortcoming. I believe the manufacturers goal is to provide an instrument that feels and sounds good enough to play music, never goes out of tune and is easier to transport than an acoustic piano. IMO, it is better to consider a DP an instrument in its own right instead of an acoustic piano facsimile. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Putting things as simply as possible, there is one major reason why most DP's, in their current format, will never give you that acoustic piano experience, & that is... length of the key. http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1587661/1.html Excellent point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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