Steve Nathan Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 For years, I've had an old Furman AR-117 Voltage Regulator in my large Synth rack. It is now, sadly dying of old age and I need to replace it. I've been told by more than one studio tech that "voltage regulation" was unnecessary for a rack of hardware synth modules and samplers, but when I ask why the explanation soars over my head. So, I'm looking at two possibilities. PL-PLUS DMC and P-1800 AR Perhaps some of our more technically educated citizens would be willing to guide me. It is a 40-50ish space rack with only synths, samplers and sample players, a Meek EQ, a custom headphone box, and a MOTU 828 and Midi Timepiece. I also connect my MBP to it (AC & audio/midi). There are no amps connected, and my Hammond is never pluged into the rack. I want relatively cleaned up power, and I want it to fall on it's sword if a really nasty "out of range" spike occurs (which has thankfully only happened once in my entire career). Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 That's a HUGE rack The only reason you'd need a regulator is if you're gigging in clubs or festivals. Not really needed in the studio. From your concerns, a decent power conditioner is really what you need. The best voltage regulators were Juice Goose - what happened to those guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Totally OT!: I love your profile pic, Steve! The song 'Get Together' from that film is one of my all-time faves! Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Clean power is largely a local thing. Out here in the Pacific Northwest I've been told our power is among the most stable in the nation. All I know is that I've never had any problems with it in over 35 years with any of my gear or computers. I've heard horror stories about South Florida though. If studio techs in your area say it's unnecessary I'd probably go with their recommendation if it were me. But if you stress over this kind of stuff and it puts your mind at ease so you play better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 If the rack is stationary or stays in your studio I don't know if I would go with a Furman. I MIGHT compare specs with Tripp or see what APC has. I know the rack mount Tripp is a 3 space unit. We have one of these and several APC devices in our server room. But maybe the Furman stuff beats it but I have never seen Furman used to protect any of our networks. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 The rack (yes it is large) does not stay in one place. It gets moved from studio to studio with my session gear. Most of these are top notch professional rooms with state of the art "Tech Power", but some are smaller, lower budget rooms with less attention paid to incoming power. Nashville Electric is notorious for delivering voltage that "swings" over a broader range than most, and I do take this rack to South Florida from time to time. However, both of these units say they provide constant consistent voltage, and both say they will shut down nearly instantly if voltage exceeds the top of their recommended range. The more I look into this, the more it seems that the need for "Voltage Regulation" is more an issue of what you plug into it than where you plug it in. Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Totally OT!: I love your profile pic, Steve! The song 'Get Together' from that film is one of my all-time faves! I switched to that pic for Halloween, then decided to keep it. I think that film gave me night-mmares as a kid Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 That's a HUGE rack rawk It is indeed. I'm not in front of it, but I think it is 2 sides with 22 spaces a side. Glad I don't have to lift it Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLaw Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Steve, You're probably aware (but nobody has explicitly stated it yet) that, of the two units you've mentioned, it looks like only the P-1800 AR actually provides voltage regulation. The PL-Plus appears to only monitor voltage, and shut you down if the voltage deviates from set limits. Larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoooombiex Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I haven't tried the PL-Plus, but I have a P-1800 AR and it works great. Though I don't have any serious power issues (though our voltage usually runs a little high), so it's probably unnecessary. The 1800 has a nice combination of filtering and voltage regulation. Sounds like it would meet your needs well. You can find B-stock ones on ebay for under $600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Steve, You're probably aware (but nobody has explicitly stated it yet) that, of the two units you've mentioned, it looks like only the P-1800 AR actually provides voltage regulation. The PL-Plus appears to only monitor voltage, and shut you down if the voltage deviates from set limits. Larry. Top Yes, I know. That's exactly why I'm asking if anything about my set up and circumstances warrants the additional expense of the one with actual Voltage Regulation (other than peace of mind for worst case scenarios). Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDP Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I use VR because voltage "sag" or undervoltage causes power supplies to attempt to compensate. However the power supplies in synths, processors, etc are not designed to do this efficiently so delicate electronics downstream can be affected quite negatively. For me it is "peace of mind" and I never leave home without it. But, if your stuff is already kept in studios with really good clean power coming in, it would be overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickd Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I use an APC voltage regulator, really just for peace of mind on gigs where I haven't played there before. Before I got it, I only had problems on outdoor stages where the generator wasn't up to spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 For years, I've had an old Furman AR-117 Voltage Regulator in my large Synth rack. It is now, sadly dying of old age and I need to replace it. I've been told by more than one studio tech that "voltage regulation" was unnecessary for a rack of hardware synth modules and samplers, but when I ask why the explanation soars over my head. So, I'm looking at two possibilities. PL-PLUS DMC and P-1800 AR Perhaps some of our more technically educated citizens would be willing to guide me. It is a 40-50ish space rack with only synths, samplers and sample players, a Meek EQ, a custom headphone box, and a MOTU 828 and Midi Timepiece. I also connect my MBP to it (AC & audio/midi). There are no amps connected, and my Hammond is never pluged into the rack. I want relatively cleaned up power, and I want it to fall on it's sword if a really nasty "out of range" spike occurs (which has thankfully only happened once in my entire career). I have a large system too in my studio,- 2 30HU racks full of sound-modules incl. mixers etc.,- there´s a Furman PL Plus E (I´m in europe)in every rack. I don´t take these out for gigs and rarely did in the past. For any gigs w/ 3 keys and 3 modules, I have a transformer based 500VA power regulator being almost undestroyable in a flightcase. It´s a fat beast and weights 20 kilos but regulates very well within narrow specs. For outdoor a power regulator is a must. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I would expect a lot cleaner power in studios than in live venues. There is no way I would run a live gig without my Furman. It has the step transformer in it to correct voltage as well as the usual filtering stuff. Moe --- "I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker http://www.hotrodmotm.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDP Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 FWIW - I use a triplite VR. They also make a rackmount unit that is 21.8 Amp continuous output (2400 watts / 110 voltage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I would expect a lot cleaner power in studios than in live venues. There is no way I would run a live gig without my Furman. It has the step transformer in it to correct voltage as well as the usual filtering stuff. Misinterpretation,- I have the Fuman PL Plus E in every rack,- not only in my 2 big ones. Furmans are my power strips and rack lights. If I set up a small rack for live, I have the power regulator and a Furman,- but in the Studio, I don´t use the power regulator because I don´t have to here and it´s insufficiently dimensioned for the studio gear anyway. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I know on the Tripp Lite there $25,000 warranty coverage for any devices damaged while plugged into a Tripp VR. I have no idea what the hoops to jump through in order to collect. I wonder if Furman has a guarantee? "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I never thought I needed one until I played somehwere that the voltage was low and it caused two of my keyboards to shut down. At home I run my keyboards through a small UPS that takes care of voltage and blinking power. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I haven't the time to go into the same detail as last time this came up, but will just cut to the chase and recommend SurgeX, for studio (vs. live) use. http://www.surgex.com/ Ironically, I use SurgeX for live use, and related but simpler non-sacrifical protection (not the same as regulation) in the home, as I'm more likely to encounter large fluctuations at performing venues than in areas I already know well. Furman is sacrificial, as is TrippLite. Both are MOSFET-based. Eugenio Upright, 60th Ann P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico Bari, Dano Bari Select Strat/Tele, Am Pro Jazzmaster, LP 57 Gold, G5422DC-12, T486, T64, PM2, EXL1, XK4, Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I've been using a Tripp Lite LC1200 for 15 years. Would never leave home without it. It does the voltage regulation thing like the AR-117. worth the investment. 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
village idiot Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I use a power distro modded by Motion Labs for 6- 20amp circuits and a Furman voltage reg with two IBM 1u ups all in a 14u rack...All the gear is powered by the instrument racks and all of those racks can only plug-into the distro, which has adapters and bare wire to tie into any venue. My instrument racks have Furman PL8Ds....I didn't think it was needed even tho I could tell when the ice or beer cooler came on in the venues we were playing. I have ended up on two occasions with a full rig of 7 boards and doing the entire set on the top manual of my Hammond: because the power was bad. I never go out without that distro rack on the truck. I have played festivals where the generator was crackling and crazy, or they grabbed electric from the wires in a light pole! The cost of repair to your equipment can be overcome...cost to your reputation is much harder. I don't think anyone can reliably predict when a spike or brownout will happen as we get our power from so many unknown sources.....Even the best of studios can have spikes that go beyond their circuit planning...you cant take a chance. I must say tho, the power here in America, particularly the West Coast is the best I've seen yet. I am told by my Tech that Japan is the only country with better power, because their infrastructure is so recent... Europe is typically a nightmare!! I would be wary of some of the current brands of power systems because many are now made in China...some with sacrificial fuses even. A number of companies here in the states make great VRs and distros, and will make a system to fit your amps and budget. Never cut what you can untie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
village idiot Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I was going to put up a pdf of my distro from the design stages, but my Facebook page doesnt seem to allow the posting of PDFs. If anyone has an interest, I will email directly the PDF for review. Never cut what you can untie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP3 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 The biggest problem is line frequency swings especially if you play a Hammond. The pitch is directly dependent on have a solid 60Hz power source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
village idiot Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 without line voltage regulation....pitch will change on the Hammond as stated and the band will have to tune to you!!if you're lucky enough for it to be stable for any length of time. I have a black box that makes a conversion for the line frequency so that I can use the Hammond in England..$350.00 for the box, but it costs more than the box and the Hammond combined to ship the Hammond over...better to buy a Hammond on English soil and sell when you leave! The brownouts and serges are murder on your power supplies over time. Never cut what you can untie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Surge protection is always a good idea. Power conditioners are good for places where flipping a switch here dims the lights there A LOT, for a moment. I mean, places with really crappy power, or the wrong kind of gear on the circuit. All the above and voltage regulation, and possibly UPS, are good for outdoor gigs where you might run long power cables from bad power sources -- but mostly for the power amps, and not so much for the digital gear. Voltage regulation is overkill for most modern digital gear, or any gear that uses switching power supplies, other than power amps. The way switching power supplies work is that they know "this pin needs to be at voltage X." They have some higher voltage coming in. When the pin is below X, they feed it juice from the higher voltage. When it's at X, they cut off that juice. They work SO fast, the voltage never goes over X (except a lightning strike, where all bets are off!) The input voltage is somewhere around 110 volts AC. X is usually much lower, such as 12V or 5V (and often there are several pins that need different voltages). Of course, the 110 AC goes way above X and also way below it. The ciruits are smart enough to disconnect when it's below. And there's a circuit to store enough juice when the AC goes below. (It's not quite that simple, but you get the idea.) So, there's no need to get the exact right voltage coming in. It's going up and down all over the place anyway, and the switching supply can handle it if it's not quite high enough or a bit too high. Why are power amps a special case? Well, they aren't really, unless you're running them near their max levels. When they're maxxed out, they don't respond well to brownouts! That circuit that's switching on and off to keep a pin at X voltage is working its ass off barely able to keep it at X because of the power hungry stuff downstream. Any loss of input juice is bad. HTH. Don't take it as gospel; I'm a software guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 HTH. Don't take it as gospel; I'm a software guy. laugh Maybe so, but your explanation is pretty much a match for what I got from Nashville's top studio techs. Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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