Best jazz pianists, living or deceased?

[I-missRichardTee]

May I ask the jazz lovers this:

Is there a rough consensus on the top piano players , living or dead, among this forums jazz appreciating members?

 

Where are the following in the hierarchy of jazz piano?

 

Bill Evans, Monk, Tatum, Oscar, Brad, Hancock, McCoy, Rubalcaba, Shearing, Keith, Chick, W Kelly, B Powell, E Garner, Duke, Hines, Gene Harris, Joe Sample, Hersh, Mulgrew, Sonny Clark, Flannigan, H Jones, K Kirkland, Waller, Jamal, Willie the Lion, Cedar, Longo, Tristano, Hawes, George Duke, Richard Tee, D Benoit,

 

You are welcome to subtract or add to these nominees; subject to forum scrutiny

 

If you believe in the notion of mixing hierarchy with art, you might have the:

1. very best category, 2 innovators, 3. virtuoso with great musiciality,

4. excellent

that's just off the top, be my guest and create (or delete) other categories, unless you are repelled by HIERARCHY problem with that is, generally agreed upon much lesser [pianist like eg_______ will be seen as equal to or better than Oscar or Herbie, that is stretching it , for me. So SOME kind of hierarchy seems necessary!!

 

Edit This is really difficult, isn't it?

Regarding the categories themselves: Maybe isolate an aspect- such as amazing technique? To my mind these names come up ( and technique is absolutely NOT disassociated from great musicality in this rendering - please! No blazing technique that is generally deemed unmusical, ok? )

Most Technique Tatum ( likely winner ) , Oscar, Ahmad Jamal, Keith, Chick, Fats, (Evans?)

Many of the greats on my make shift list of great pianists, do not enter this category of "musical, and most technical".

So that is one approach.

 

then there is innovator/ (composer or not), category- for that Horace, Tyner, Tatum, Monk, Evans , Oscar, Garner, Jamal, Brad, Keith, Chick, Hancock, Duke, add your own nominees. This is a can of worms, because one man's idea of what innovation is may be quite different from another's so let's go into this with open minds, and see if there is a consensus about who belongs in that category!!

 

Groovingest pianists opens up "soul players" and even Eddie Palmieri for me

But Oscar is there.

 

Special Herbie section ( one of my heroes ) Herbie is strongly in the groove category, for me, Herbie has the uncanny ability to "fit in", to make grooves that seem dubious, into something memorable- I cite the "Native Dancer" CD of Wayne S. That rhythm section sounds a tad unfamiliar with one another- a studio bass player who sounds like he is doing his reading thing, a S American drummer, and Herbie. There are times they avert "train wrecks" yet come out very much intact. There is another track with Herbie, I think "Cornbread" where rhythm section does not sound tight yet Herbie elevates it with his magic.

 

SOLO piano!! Tatum, Oscar and who else???

 

I started this in a spirit of learning and sharing our ideas, not overly heated dispute. If we respect other opinions, we can learn something.

 

[Joe Muscara]

Is there a rough consensus on the top piano players , living or dead, among this forums jazz appreciating members?

[CrimsonianKing]

Jordan Rudess!

[Skinny]

Brian Culbertson

[Dana.]

Keith who?

[Adan]

J.S. Bach

[Skinny]

Or wait, Beethoven...?

[Jazzwee]

What happened to guys like Dave McKenna on Solo piano? Or Tristano for innovation?

 

Love the Herbie commentary

 

And the recordings may not reveal it completely due to poor quality of the times but it's been written in multiple places how Evan's touch at the time was unsurpassed. Like Classical level playing brought into jazz. This was new at the time. Of course, now players like Mehldau and Jarrett and even Herbie started on Classical.

 

The problem is that technique is a moving target. More and more young players focus on technique (Eldar, Hiromi, etc.) and less on musicality. So though one may think to separate technique from musicality, it's when you don't that the older players (Tatum, Oscar, AND Evans -- though Bill was not about pyrotechnics) win out.

[Theo Verelst]

...

 

Where are the following in the hierarchy of jazz piano?

 

Bill Evans, Monk, Tatum, Oscar, Brad, Hancock, McCoy, Rubalcaba, Shearing, Keith, Chick, W Kelly, B Powell, E Garner, Duke, Hines, Gene Harris, Joe Sample, Hersh, Mulgrew, Sonny Clark, Flannigan, H Jones, K Kirkland, Waller, Jamal, Willie the Lion, Cedar, Longo, Tristano, Hawes, George Duke, Richard Tee, D Benoit,

 

... something.

 

Probably the relevance in these times of the half of them is under Don Grolnik andJim Beard for being active in fusion jazz..

 

Of course G. Duke and Hancock and Corea in lines influenced mostly by Monk are torch bearers as such. Joe Sample deserves honourable mention of course. I agree with Tee as influencial but not so much in the avant garde of Jazz. Probably there are good examples in pop/funk/rock who are also important in jazz.

 

Theo

[Jazzwee]

There was this story in Kenny Werner's book and I believe in Bill Evan's biography that jazz pianists would gather at some party and they would play at a piano and claim the piano sucked.

 

Then Bill Evans would sit on the same piano and dazzle them with an outstanding tone. They couldn't figure out how Evans could create that sound on an instrument they though was pretty pathetic.

 

Due to the quality of recordings during those days and lack of dynamic range, we're not able to appreciate this as much as KJ perhaps since we are still able to see KJ. But jazz pianists rating each other is worth something. Today, they equivalent guy (to Evans) that is the envy of Jazz pianists is KJ.

 

But before Evans, it was more about rhythm, swing, and being heard against the horn players and the subtlety of dynamics and tone was not high on the priority list of the jazz pianists of the time.

 

Though I recall there were some pianists with a refined pianistic touch like Hank Jones.

 

Now maybe some of you are old enough and into jazz early enough to actually have heard Bill Evans play so maybe you can tell us how it sounded in real life.

[Theo Verelst]

I suddenly remembered seeing a good performance of Michel Petrucciani, and of course one of the main ones: Russel Ferrantes, who I do consider quite in the lieu of jazz-rock and jazz-funk.

[Michelle ggurl]

I think Alfredo Rodriguez has touch like you speak of with Jarrett, Jazzwee. He is pretty avant garde, so he is really opening up his improv to exploit that, of course.

 

Since I'm on my Latin jazz pianist kick I would also add these to the list of greats (ie, just plain "excellent" category, not to say any are reinventing the wheel):

 

Gonzalo Rubalcaba

Chucho Valdes (reminds me of Oscar Peterson, and another player who I feel has a very recognizable tone, but different from the Jarrett/Evans vein you are speaking of)

Michel Camilo

 

Oh, there are many others ...

[johnchop]

I don't think music is a sport, so I'm kinda in line with the tongue-in-cheek responses here.

 

What IS useful is to say "hey, if you like this cat, check out <...>". That's one of the great things about this forum.

 

I suppose you could come up with a metric to "rate" players by their influence, but at the end of the day, I can't imagine this is useful.

 

I could listen all day to Bill Evans, Esbjorn Svensson, Alan Pasqua, and (new to me, but discovered thanks to KC) Stefano Bollani. I can absolutely _appreciate_ scores of composers/players, but not want to be caught up in their recordings all day long (e.g. Chick Corea and Hiromi).

 

But so what? To each his own.

[16251]

My take is that they're all great. My lists would reflect the pianists who I aline myself with and those who are great but either will never have the technique or harmonic mind to ever get close to their style. The other thing would be the players I always come back to for inspiration.

 

If I only could list five inspirational and favorite pianists they would be - Bill Evans, Sonny Clark, Herbie Hancock, Tommy Flanagan, Red Garland. It's difficult to only name five but I'll stick to those.

[Bobadohshe]

Since I'm on my Latin jazz pianist kick I would also add these to the list of greats (ie, just plain "excellent" category, not to say any are reinventing the wheel):

 

Gonzalo Rubalcaba

Chucho Valdes (reminds me of Oscar Peterson, and another player who I feel has a very recognizable tone, but different from the Jarrett/Evans vein you are speaking of)

Michel Camilo

 

Oh, there are many others ...

 

Eddie P?

[Bobadohshe]

I don't think music is a sport, so I'm kinda in line with the tongue-in-cheek responses here.

 

What IS useful is to say "hey, if you like this cat, check out <...>". That's one of the great things about this forum.

 

I feel you. GOAT threads are obnoxious, esp when they are so broad in scope. It'd be more interesting if the focus was narrowed, like 'who was the most influential hard bop pianist of the 60s?' or 'who would you go see today out of all the still living jazz piano greats?'.

[solpincus]

Red Garland was credited for 'inventing' , in 1955, the left hand inversion that is always played in the octave below middle C. the bass note of the inversions was usually the 3rd or the 7th, & usually included a 'tension' (9th,11th, 13th,) either raised of flatted. Bill Evans,who also played with Miles, expanded on this use of inversions, often facilitating a series of half tone inner voice runs within the interior of the inversions, allowing for a slight (sometimes) dissonance that added 'energy' to the chords. He also would play lines that would have the inversions matching the 8th notes in his solos. In dominant chords, because all of the salient tones were represented in the clustered inversions, he was able to play 8th note runs with greater freedom,sometimes bordering on atonality.Pretty soon, many jazz pianists ( including Oscar) began expanding their harmonic approach in a similier way.

Jazz Organists, who played the bass lines with their left hands, began utilizing these inversion with right RIGHT hand on the lower manual (808, or 838) when comping for other soloists.

Milt Buckner was credited with 'inventing' the 'locked-hands ' approach to playing melodies, (or solos) , a technique which George Shearing later popularized with his quintets. Needless to say, many other Jazz, or 'Lounge' pianists began using this technique world wide. Organist (JimmY Smith uses this when employing the 'Squabble' style in some tunes .

I think most of us knew where the 4th voicings came from & who used them.

Many of the unsung heroes of the piano were buried in near-anonymous obscurity, while backing up vocalists. Hank Jones is one....Ellis Larkins is onther....

[Jazzwee]

I think Alfredo Rodriguez has touch like you speak of with Jarrett, Jazzwee. He is pretty avant garde, so he is really opening up his improv to exploit that, of course.

 

Since I'm on my Latin jazz pianist kick I would also add these to the list of greats (ie, just plain "excellent" category, not to say any are reinventing the wheel):

 

Gonzalo Rubalcaba

Chucho Valdes (reminds me of Oscar Peterson, and another player who I feel has a very recognizable tone, but different from the Jarrett/Evans vein you are speaking of)

Michel Camilo

 

Oh, there are many others ...

 

Rubalcaba's chops are out of this world. Herbie said in a concert with him that he wanted to cut off his fnngers (tongue in cheek of course).

 

BUT - Michel Camilo is the one that I really enjoy listening to among your list.

 

And I'm glad to be introduced to Alfredo Rodriguez...will have to check him out.

 

Funny, though, as much as it's entertaining to make lists, my Playlist on my Iphone/Itunes never really deviates much. Typically, I just stick to the guys that "invented" a particular style that influences me. There's a purity to that.

 

And my list is short: Bill Evans, Herbie, KJ, Chick, Brad Mehldau, Alan Pasqua, Fred Hersch.

 

Someone made a comment that I don't have much of a bebop influence in the way I play. Well, I guess this explains it...

[Jazzwee]

Milt Buckner was credited with 'inventing' the 'locked-hands ' approach to playing melodies, (or solos) , a technique which George Shearing later popularized with his quintets.

 

Wow - I learned something new. I previously thought it was Red Garland that invented locked-hands. But Wiki says's you're right. I guess Red took from him.

[solpincus]

You're probably right. I think Buckner's most significant period was the mid 40's. Red was more of a Bop-inspired player ( although it's kind of difficult to place Garland, or Bill Evans or tommy Flanagan either into a firmly-defined genre like 'Bebop' the way one would do with Bud Powell, (& even THAT is open to scrutiny; listen to Un Poco Loco, or that strange recording he did of 'I GET A KICK OUT OF YOU'. Those kind of stand alone, stylistically speaking.)

[solpincus]

There is (or was) also a counter-culture of Pianists who, often in After-hours spots like Jimbo's BOP CITY ( IN SAN FRANCISCO during the 40's & 50') and in pretty much all of the major Big Cities east, west , mid west, deep south, north, who were never recorded, (or recorded in some obscure setting) who would scare the be-Jesus out of the so-called Big Names ( & who the ' big names' no doubt stole from, or learned from). In San Francisco, there was a stride-player named stanley willis, who would wear a robe, wear a rich-shaw hat, who would often play with charles Mingus, or Verne Alley. The stories about him would rival some of the scariest ones back in New York. a drummer who I often played with back in the 70's & 80's, was house drummer for Bop city back then. He told me that one night, after playing at Fach 1, (sic?) Kenny Drew, ( who was big in the 50's) came in to Bop City one night. the hordes of horn-players mobbed mr drew, but could not get his attention : he was stricken with momentary paralysis watching stanley willis playing some obsure tune at a break-neck tempo, solo, in stride, with a hankersheif over his left hand.

another local player was known in circles back in New York, was John Baker. of course, many of these types of players were much lesser known, because MANY of them had serious JUNK problems, & were often in jail, prison, or some kind of monastic recovery facility. Plus, many of them were hiding out from the Vice squad. No doubt, these after hours spots were often a source of serious discomfort for many big name players who would visit them while in town. every major big City had places like these where 'school' took on a very different aspect, the atmosphere was VIRULENT, & NOBODY was allowed to 'coast.' Charles Mingus (himself a brilliant pianist, aswell as vangard bassist & composer) took this attitude to New York with him. It literally became his credo for life. Just ask ANY pianist who worked for him.

[Michelle ggurl]

Since I'm on my Latin jazz pianist kick I would also add these to the list of greats (ie, just plain "excellent" category, not to say any are reinventing the wheel):

 

Gonzalo Rubalcaba

Chucho Valdes (reminds me of Oscar Peterson, and another player who I feel has a very recognizable tone, but different from the Jarrett/Evans vein you are speaking of)

Michel Camilo

 

Oh, there are many others ...

 

Eddie P?

 

He was already mentioned in the OP, and I certainly agree that Palmieri's contributions are significant.

 

And for the record, my intent in participating in this thread is not to engage in some kind of "sport" or competition (like a fantasy football league). That's why I'm just sticking to adding some players I think have greatness but who haven't been added to the list.

 

EDIT: Ah, Rubalcaba was also in the original list...

[Michelle ggurl]

 

BUT - Michel Camilo is the one that I really enjoy listening to among your list.

 

Yeah ... of that short list, my faves are Camilo and Chucho. Honestly I find I need to approach both Rodriguez and Rubalcaba in small doses. Been into Elaine Elias a lot lately (Brazilian).

[MonksDream]

Good call on Elias, Michelle! Have you heard any Egberto Gismonti? He plays guitar as well and is freakishly talented on both instruments.

[Michelle ggurl]

Yes, Gismonti actually inspired a piece I wrote (and play) that will be on my next CD ... whenever I can pull it all together enough to record it.

[Jazzwee]

Geez, let's not be so serious about this that we even have to defend participation in an entertaining topic. It's entertaining that's it...

 

Seriously which is more entertaining: 'NS2 for jazz' or 'Discussion on Jazz pianists'?

 

Will some player come on top? Nope. But some new names did come out that I'd be interested in checking out.

 

Though in defense of the OP, he broke down differently into innovation, chops, groove, solo piano...Not as a straight Greatest Of All Time kinda thing.

 

BTW - Michelle, I had an interest in Michel Camilo one time while I tried to figure out his LH/RH two handed soloing thing. That was intriguing. But it'll take me 50 years to build up my LH

 

 

 

[MonksDream]

Hmm, other players not yet mentioned that people should check out include:

 

Cyrus Chestnut

Kenny Kirkland

Neil Cowley

Bobby Timmons

James Williams (is my bias towards Art Blakey's pianists showing )

Cedar Walton

Nat King Cole (surely one of the greatest)

...and, happily, the list can go on an on

 

Are they the "best"? Who cares? They're all exciting to listen to and that's what I strive for in my own playing and appreciate in theirs.

[MuzikTeechur]

In my school, we have email conferences, and often times in the student conference someone will pose the question: "Top 10 bands of all time" or "Top 10 guitarists of all time" etc. Now, as their teacher I'm thrilled that they're taking the time to talk/chat/type about music and musicians at all, but I find that the answers are invariably limited to the respondent's scope of experience. How can one include Eric Clapton if one has never heard of him (hard to imagine, but it happens)? I had never heard of Gene Harris until about 10 years ago I was driving home from somewhere late at night and stumbled on an obscure jazz show. I went out and bought everything I could find by the guy the next day. Prior to that, he wouldn't have appeared on any of my "top 10" lists because I didn't know about him.

The very thing - innovation - that made all of these pianists famous in the first place is the very thing that makes them impossible to rate against one another. Without the early pianists (Art Tatum, Jelly Roll Morton, Scott Joplin, Count Basie, Duke, Fats Waller...) we wouldn't have the later guys (and girls). Does that make them better? Was Steve Jobs smarter than Carl Sagan? Was Sagan smarter than Einstein?

The whole exercise is subjective and academic. A more salient question would be "Your 10 Most Favorite Jazz Players" - then you allow for some personal opinion and taste, rather than trying to decide which is "best" when you have a whole basket of mixed fruit to compare!

 

[Jazzwee]

I hear you muzikteechur and your points about differing points of reference are valid. However, most people didn't seem to go past the title. The OP broken it down into

 

Innovators

Chops

Groove

Solo Piano

etc.

and based on your own opinion.

 

So it could be educational. For example, as occurred above, I never heard of Milt Buckner inventing Locked hands...

 

I'm actually curious about who people think are the innovators since sometimes it may not be obvious.

[Malpaugh]

Hmm, other players not yet mentioned that people should check out include:

 

Cyrus Chestnut

Kenny Kirkland

Neil Cowley

Bobby Timmons

James Williams (is my bias towards Art Blakey's pianists showing )

Cedar Walton

Nat King Cole (surely one of the greatest)

...and, happily, the list can go on an on

 

Are they the "best"? Who cares? They're all exciting to listen to and that's what I strive for in my own playing and appreciate in theirs.

 

Some guys I've always liked that get overlooked:

 

Richie Beirach

Warren Bernhardt

Mike Nock