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Organ clone and Leslie clone questions including 3300, 2100


I-missRichardTee

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I own a Vent

2007 CX3 Korg ( can anyone relate- I actually returned the Suz XK3 for the Korg! )

A Speakeasy pre, looks Mono

a motion sound "top"

An old Voce

AND a complete Leslie 2100 System- top and bottom.

 

I have barely used most of this gear.

Between lack of gigs where B3 is the centerpiece and this plethora of barely tested gear, I am a bit confused about how to improve mt B3 situation.

 

On a gig this past week I tried using an 88 with the Korg cx3 and the Vent

no mixer just my two 15" G2 eons.

I guess it worked, but being older, I want more.

There is a Leslie ( do guys with GAS ever learn?) 3300 for sale for $1800 ( it could be gone by now) and I am wondering how the 3300 fits into all the gear I mentioned? I had heard a blurb that the 3300 is killer?

How do you rate the Vent, 2100, 3100?

I recall trying the 2100 with the CX3 and being less than impressed. The Leslie sim in cx3 seemed almost as good, maybe equal or better in some cases.. but that was five years ago.

I also recall mixing the XK3 with the 2100 and THAT was better than the 2100 with the CX3! So this is definitely grounds for confusion. Any of you lovers of B3 Leslie wish to help a guy out?

 

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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3300 has 1/4", 8-pin and 11-pin inputs. It fits well with everything .... except my Chevy HHR along with my boards.

 

The 3300 is my favorite production leslie ever. But some of my taste are strange.

 

Wurlie patches through a 3300 are awesome. Makes for a nice sound on Three Dog Night's 'Mamma Told Me'.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Have you experience with Leslie 2100 and the Vent??

Is the 3300 in 2 pieces like the 2100? I can fit the 2100 in a hatch back easily?

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I have a 3300 with a speakeasy rack pre-amp and Nord C1 and it rocks - Pursuant to B3er's suggestion, I changed the stock tube to an old RCA and that makes the overdrive even better although it does not gurgle like a real Hammond-Leslie combo. One day I will put NOS tubes in the Speakeasy and see how close that comes.

 

I also have a MS145 and quite like that too, but never dug the MS "tops" because the bottom rotor catching up to the horn was critical for me.

 

The Vent sounds great (have one of those too - real bad GAS in my house) - but am inclined to sell it as it is nothing like being in a room with real air IMO.

 

The 3300 smokes the vent IMO, until packing down after the gig.

 

The MS145 smokes the vent too IMO, and is manageable after the gig, so I often gig with that.

 

But in my home studio, I rarely use the vent or the MS, and almost always gravitate to the 3300, as it smokes the MS145.

 

That said, that too is not enough, and I'm on the hunt for A100's/B3/C3- 122-147 combos this week (home studio only) so the GAS still burns...

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Edit: Why the Speakeasy with the 3300?

 

Would you suggest I use BOTH the Speakeasy AND the Vent, for the time being? I have not used Speakeasy since the "advent" of the vent ha ha. Does Speakeasy add to the Vent?

 

I have an A 100 that has not been turned on in about 7 years, I dare not try.

And a nearly pristine leslie 145

 

Can the 3300 be carried in two halves like the 2100 system?

 

While I have you here! What do you think of the newer cx3? I replaced the XK3 with the Korg ( weird huh) there was something about the cx3 that I preferred even though I gave UP something with the XK3

I am thinking of carrying 2 separate manuals

and I was thinking they should be DIFFERENT companies to gain more variety.

 

1 Do you like the idea of 2 different companies in your arsensal?

2 If so, which two????

I can't get certain sounds on the CX3

the XK3 gets other sounds that no other quite gets.

 

We all know that no two B3's sound the same- so it follows that these companies are going to capture different aspects of B3 glory!

thx

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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If it turns out that

Cx3 Ventillator AND mono Speakeasy is a good ticket

how in the world does one engage these 3??

The Vent is mono

So I come out of only ONE OUT on the CX3

INTO the Vent

then TWO OUTS on the Vent into the TWO ( EON ) powered speaker IN's.

 

If Speakeasy would add something authentic or desireable where does it fit in?

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Have you experience with Leslie 2100 and the Vent??

 

NO

 

Is the 3300 in 2 pieces like the 2100?

No It is one piece traditional dual rotar design.

I can

fit the 2100 in a hatch back easily?

The entire 2100 system? Depends but I doubt it. I have only seen the top section.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Edit: Why the Speakeasy with the 3300?

My speakeasy is the rackmount, not the floor pedal. It warms things up with more tubes in the chain. If memory serves me, it emulates the Hammond's tubes, whereas the 3300 single tube emulates the 122/147 pre-amp tubes. Check out the Speakeasy website:

 

http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com/current-products/speakeasy-vintage-tube-preamps/

 

I have an A 100 that has not been turned on in about 7 years, I dare not try.

And a nearly pristine leslie 145

 

What are you waiting for? Get it serviced and turn it on. The A100-145 smokes them all.

 

Would you suggest I use BOTH the Speakeasy AND the Vent, for the time being?

 

I haven't tried this but I did see another forum member recently suggest it and last I heard he was quite pleased.

 

Can the 3300 be carried in two halves like the 2100 system?

 

No it's one piece on castors ~ 120 lbs

 

What do you think of the newer cx3?

 

I haven't tried one, but I'm sure it sounds great through a Vent/3300/MS145. In fact, I have admittedly gassed of late for a version 1 Korg CX3 under my Nord Stage2 (weighted) as it's flat (can stack on it), has real drawbars and is analog, and it too would likely cut it with a vent/3300/MS145. All these clones are back in season now...

 

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If it turns out that

Cx3 Ventillator AND mono Speakeasy is a good ticket...

how in the world does one engage these 3??

If Speakeasy would add something authentic or desireable where does it fit in?

 

I think the chain is CX3-> Speakeasy -> Vent

 

Better yet, call/email Steve Hayes at Speakeasy and he will tell you.

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FWIW Speakeasy is selling the lower manual for the Ventura TX-5. There was a blog article on the CX-3 working very well with the Ventura manual if anyone would want to run their CX-3 dual manual.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I was saying a full two piece 2100 system easily fits in a hatchback.

 

How big is the 3300... as deep and wide as trad Leslies ( 145 147 ) ??

This info is a bit arcane, not easily researched... so appreciate the input.

 

Does anyone here "know" why I returned the XK3 and bought the cx3 instead?

I don't mean psychological reasons 0_0, but musical ones.

I could never put my finger on my own reasons, but though I miss the suzuki something made me go for the cx3 !

edit, in fairness to Suzuki xk3 series, I did NOT play it through the 2100 system, but rather through PA speakers.

The Suzuki likely bests the cx3 if both are played through a real Leslie

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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The onboard Leslie sim of the XK3 is awful. If you were judging it by that, then I can understand why you'd go for the CX3 instead.

 

Now you're talking about two real Leslies (the 21 System and the 3300) and the Ventilator. The XK3 would sound killer through any of those and more authentic than the CX3. The CX3 will also sound good through them, though.

 

The 3300 is just slightly smaller than a Leslie 145. It has casters and handles on the side. It is around 120lbs. It is not very easy to get in and out of a vehicle by yourself, though I do it often. With the right preamp tube, it sounds awesome. Headroom for days, nice break-up when you push it, and tone controls to shape the sound how you want. If you're kicking bass it will suffice in most applications but I like to use the sub output into a powered sub for more pedal-bass room shaking madness.

 

I also use a 2101 / 2121 system with a Ventilator at the same time. The Vent provides the grunge. The 2101 provides the moving air. The 2121 provides a very great sounding keyboard amp for my digital piano and the Ventilator. It's a nice system. I give the soundguy a direct out from the Vent and don't even bother mic'ing the 2101. It's just for my own enjoyment on stage, since I like moving air.

 

What kind of tone are you going for? What kind of music do you play?

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The onboard Leslie sim of the XK3 is awful. If you were judging it by that, then I can understand why you'd go for the CX3 instead.

 

Now you're talking about two real Leslies (the 21 System and the 3300) and the Ventilator. The XK3 would sound killer through any of those and more authentic than the CX3. The CX3 will also sound good through them, though.

 

The 3300 is just slightly smaller than a Leslie 145. It has casters and handles on the side. It is around 120lbs. It is not very easy to get in and out of a vehicle by yourself, though I do it often. With the right preamp tube, it sounds awesome. Headroom for days, nice break-up when you push it, and tone controls to shape the sound how you want. If you're kicking bass it will suffice in most applications but I like to use the sub output into a powered sub for more pedal-bass room shaking madness.

 

I also use a 2101 / 2121 system with a Ventilator at the same time. The Vent provides the grunge. The 2101 provides the moving air. The 2121 provides a very great sounding keyboard amp for my digital piano and the Ventilator. It's a nice system. I give the soundguy a direct out from the Vent and don't even bother mic'ing the 2101. It's just for my own enjoyment on stage, since I like moving air.

 

What kind of tone are you going for? What kind of music do you play?

 

Well, my first Organ attraction was Booker T, then Jimmy Smith, John Patton, Groove Holmes, then Larry Young, then I got hip to guys like CT from Tower of Power!!

So Blues, Jazz, Funk, and the most mysterious for me- Gospel... have you heard some of those bad boys on youtube playing Gospel...my goodness some of them are monsters.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I also use a 2101 / 2121 system with a Ventilator at the same time. The Vent provides the grunge. The 2101 provides the moving air. The 2121 provides a very great sounding keyboard amp for my digital piano and the Ventilator. It's a nice system. I give the soundguy a direct out from the Vent and don't even bother mic'ing the 2101. It's just for my own enjoyment on stage, since I like moving air.

 

I'd been meaning to figure out a way to do the same thing with my 3300/MS145, but haven't been able to figure how to use one Leslie switch/pedal to trigger both Leslies (one being the soundguy's vent, the other being my on stage Leslie/MS145). I tried a Y cable but it did not send the same fast/slow signal to each. How did you address this?

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When I saw Tower of Power a few years ago (from backstage), Roger Smith had a Hammond Suzuki B3p with twin 2101/2121 Leslies. It sounded awesome. The new 2101 mkII has the same tube preamp section as the 3300. If you want a real spinning horn, I'd look into that along with the 2121 bottom cabinet, which as I mentioned makes an awesome keyboard amp for digital piano, etc.

 

Dglavko, I use a custom made cable that connects to the 11pin output on the XK3. The other end connects to the 2101 via it's 11pin connector. That end also has a 1/4" TS cable for audio and a 1/4" TRS connector for the switching signal, which go to the Ventilator.

 

I don't know anything about the MS145 or how it switches speeds so I can't be more specific in that regard, sorry.

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Question

Can anyone help me understand why I returned the XK3 ( which I probably want BACK again in the later version XK3c ) for the older ( 2006 or 7 ) cx3?

I am looking for a technical explanation of what I was responding to.

 

RE Roger Smith

So I need to dump the 2101 and buy a revised 2101 mk2?

 

Is there any approximate consensus about the better emulations? Is the XK3c through a Leslie as good as anything else?

Does the Speakeasy ( mine is from about 6 years ago ) improve the sound of 2100 or Vent's?

Thank you.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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No, roger was using two of the original 2101 Leslie's. Sounded great.

 

As for why you favor the CX3 over the XK3, if you're looking for vindication for that choice, I can't help you. If you like the sound of the CX3 more than the XK3, that's your decision. Whether or not I do or anyone else does is not important.

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I liked them both, but my reasons are not clear.

I'm saying that each emulation has aspects that are desireable and not.

Is there anything about the cx3 that you prefer to what ever your chosen B3 emulation is?

 

I have never played 2 B3's that sounded the same; nor Fender Rhodes'.

I was hearing too much of a good thing from the XK3, I don't know how to better ID that Hammond quality.

The cx3 had a wholly different "picture" of the B3 sound.

I miss that "too much" quality in the XK3 ( Is the revision of the XK3, the XK3c tonally a little modified?) , because the cx3 does not have that quality?

 

That is one of the reasons I am thinking of adding an xk3c to the cx3.. dual manuals. Has anyone tried merging two different manuals together.. are there issues with Expression, or other issues?

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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No, roger was using two of the original 2101 Leslie's. Sounded great.

 

As for why you favor the CX3 over the XK3, if you're looking for vindication for that choice, I can't help you. If you like the sound of the CX3 more than the XK3, that's your decision. Whether or not I do or anyone else does is not important.

 

OK Roger Smith was using TWO 2101 systems- that would be four cabs, correct?

 

So for my less than concert size gigs

and based on the fact that I own the full 2100 system ( 2 cabs and amps )

you are suggesting I use the whole 2101 system with the Vent in the chain... ? And the Speakeasy I own, does that enhance this?

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Is there anything about the cx3 that you prefer to what ever your chosen B3 emulation is?

 

My chosen Hammond is the XK3 with the XK33 lower manual and full pedals. I can't think of anything the CX3 does better except for the onboard Leslie sim but since I don't use the Leslie sim in the XK3, that doesn't matter to me.

 

I was hearing too much of a good thing from the XK3, I don't know how to better ID that Hammond quality.

 

Two things: The XK3 comes out of the box sounding like the perfect Hammond organ, probably closer to what Laurens Hammond originally intended and strove to achieve than anything poor Mr. Hammond actually produced while he was alive. In other words, it's tame, kinda dull, and too perfect. You must take the time to tweak it and that's where the strength of the XK3 comes into play; it allows a lot of customization.

 

If you don't want to do all that work, I give out my custom tonewheel set for the XK3 for free. It's based on my 1958 B3 and makes the XK3 much less perfect. It introduces some flaws, like all real B3s have. It turns the XK3 into a different organ.

 

Secondly, combine that ideal organ sound with a Leslie sim that fails to actually simulate the wood cabinet or amp or crossover or tubes and just simulates the sound whirling around... in other words, it fails to emulate 50% of what makes Leslie sound the way it does... and that "perfect organ" just sounds wrong.

 

As I've said on this forum before, the RAW tone of the XK3's engine is remarkably close to the tone of a real B3 straight off the preamp. The sound of the Hammond organ we all know and loved is shaped and compressed and spun by the Leslie. Put the XK3 through a real Leslie and it sounds killer. Tweak the settings to optimize and you've got yourself a helluva emulation. But by itself, it doesn't have that classic sound because the classic sound we're used to is through a Leslie.

 

The cx3 had a wholly different "picture" of the B3 sound. I miss that "too much" quality in the XK3 ( Is the revision of the XK3, the XK3c tonally a little modified?) , because the cx3 does not have that quality?

 

That's the problem with a lot of other clones. If you listen to them sans the Leslie sim, sans c/v, sans FX and EQ, they do not sound like a real tonewheel Hammond coming straight off the preamp. They are idealized but in a different way. And it starts to get "old" after awhile.

 

That is one of the reasons I am thinking of adding an xk3c to the cx3.. dual manuals. Has anyone tried merging two different manuals together.. are there issues with Expression, or other issues?

 

Never tried it. Not sure if you could MIDI them together in some way so the expression pedal would with both. You could run the output of the CX3 into the XK3's FX loop, which is pre-expression pedal.

 

OK Roger Smith was using TWO 2101 systems- that would be four cabs, correct?

 

Yes. But he has roadies.

 

So for my less than concert size gigs

and based on the fact that I own the full 2100 system ( 2 cabs and amps )

you are suggesting I use the whole 2101 system with the Vent in the chain... ? And the Speakeasy I own, does that enhance this?

 

I don't think you'd need the Speakeasy if you tied in the Vent. The Vent adds the grunge. The 2101 gives you the stage presence of moving air. It's a very nice combination.

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Your experience, very well expressed, is very helpful, and resonates with my experience with a B3 I once owned ( I have an A100 now, but in storage AND disrepair )

I recall listening to my killer B3 without the Leslie... That is something all seekers of the B3 sound ought to do. It was very educational ( and your remarks here, just jogged those old recollections back for me.. thank you much ) - I was surprised how much the LESLIE was an INTEGRAL part of the total package.

Your remarks are on the money

 

So time to ditch the cx3

what about the XK3c? How is it "better" than the XK3?

 

At some point I will ask you how to hookup

2100 system

and the mono vent

definitely over my head!!

 

Thank you

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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So time to ditch the cx3

what about the XK3c? How is it "better" than the XK3?

 

It's only time to ditch the CX3 if you're tired of it. If it's working for you, then keep it. If you're missing something, I think you might find it with the XK3 or XK3c. Or you might find it with something else. Only you can decide that.

 

The main differences between the XK3 and XK3c are as follows:

 

1) XK3c has a better onboard Leslie sim

2) XK3c has chorus/vibrato that can be turned on or off for each manual... on the XK3 the chorus/vibrato is one or off for the entire organ

3) XK3c has improved MIDI control capabilities

4) XK3c has more options to tweak

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