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Have you ever used VSTs for a live gig?


CEB

VSTs Live  

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  1. 1. VSTs Live

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I don't know. I'm a hardware only guy.

 

The only time I've used computers is when I do studio tracks at this one place. The studio guy says play this and I play it.

 

It is a computer thingy but it sounds real good. I think it is something called Ivory.

 

All I know is I got paid.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I don't know. I'm a hardware only guy.

 

are you sure? human body consist of ~60% of water.

 

Yes, I'm 200 pounds of twisted steel and sex appeal.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I don't know. I'm a hardware only guy.

 

are you sure? human body consist of ~60% of water.

 

Yes, I'm 200 pounds of twisted steel and sex appeal.

 

:facepalm:

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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To answer the question in the other thread, shouldn't it be DO you, instead of HAVE you? If somebody tried it once and went back to hardware because they had problems, I think i'd count them in the hardware group.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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To answer the question in the other thread, shouldn't it be DO you, instead of HAVE you? If somebody tried it once and went back to hardware because they had problems, I think i'd count them in the hardware group.

 

You are right. I can delete this and start a new one.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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If somebody tried it once and went back to hardware because they had problems, I think i'd count them in the hardware group.

 

Well, I went back to hardware, but it wasn't because of problems with my software rig. I just didn't like the extra setup + boot time, more cables to trip over, and overall lack of tactile control.

 

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
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Right now I'm using my laptop to run VB3. I was using an old XP machine, but it failed to start up last weekend before a show; turns out that the hard drive is toast. Since I use my Electro to control VB3, I simply used the Electro's internal sounds as a backup.

 

I've now got my (Win 7) laptop configured to run VB3/Cantabile, so that's what I'll be using now. I have the same issue with it as I did with the old XP machine - the driver for my Presonus Audiobox seems to disappear every time I start the computer. So I just need to make sure I allow myself enough time before each gig to sit and re-install the driver. It's something I'm willing to deal with, because...

 

VB3 kicks so much ass.

 

 

Stuff and things.
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AU yes, VST no.

Does that count?

:laugh:

 

I get it! :wave:

 

 

 

What if you've used something like the Hamichord or Crumar Mojo, which has an embedded PC running a software instrument (in these cases, VB3)? There must be other similar examples. Would you consider that 'running a VST'?

 

Receptor is sort of a category unto itself, is it not?

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Tried it.

 

Just over 100 gigs on a PC laptop (Win XP SP3) plus NI's Kore 1 (it has midi and audio ins and outs).

 

The Kore library

Some Kore soundpacks

Truepianos

Sonivox strings + brass

 

Rebooted between sets/acts.

 

Two crashes.

 

Now back to hardware.

I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books.
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What if you've used something like the Hamichord or Crumar Mojo, which has an embedded PC running a software instrument (in these cases, VB3)? There must be other similar examples. Would you consider that 'running a VST'?

 

Receptor is sort of a category unto itself, is it not?

 

It IS running VSTs !

The difference w/ Hamichord and Crumar Mojo is,- the computer, software host and the plugin are optimized to do only THIS,- running VB3 V2.

 

Receptor is a different story.

There´s the demand to run many VSTs from different manufacturers,- so Receptor handles some of these better and others not so good.

VSTs for Receptor must be "receptorized" because VST aren´t made to run in Linux.

Some plugin manufacturers "receptorize" their plugins better than others.

 

A.C.

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Yes Al, I understand that. But Hamichord/Mojo are VSTs running under a specialized system. I've not seen anyone here say they would not even consider such hardware due to them being "PCs," whereas I have seen some say that about "using VSTs live" meaning on a laptop or similar small computer.

 

My question is, has anyone here eliminated consideration of such products because they are "PCs"?

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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My music computer is a several year old generic Dell running XP SP3, to which I have stripped every non-essential service and application.

 

It is not on the network, has no virus protection running, and no auto-update crap.

 

It boots in about 10 seconds, and never gives me a problem. I would gig with a SBC version of this, replacing the hard drive with a SSD.

 

The only worry is overheating on an outdoor gig, but I think that is more a problem with the laptop form factor than anything else.

 

I would put the SBC in a rack with a proper fan, or inside an instrument with a bit of ventilation.

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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I've not seen anyone here say they would not even consider such hardware due to them being "PCs," whereas I have seen some say that about "using VSTs live" meaning on a laptop or similar small computer.

 

Hmm, a music instrument isn´t a PC because what we normally understand to be a PC is a "gamer" or "office" machine or something similar.

Also, we differenciate between PC and Mac, but both are Personal Computers and that´s what PC means.

 

For the organ enthusiasts, Hamichord and Crumar Mojo, soundwise and both using trusty GSi VB3 plugin technology, seem to be products wiping out a lot of objections in regards of the usage of PC components technology in a hardware music instrument.

I´d say,- we WANT it works great and we believe it will until we´ll eventually find out it doesn´t work the way we expect.

 

My question is, has anyone here eliminated consideration of such products because they are "PCs"?

 

Me not and because they aren´t (see above).

It´s based on PC component technology, yes, but I think it´s much easier to realize the functionality of a organ model based on that technology than realization of a complex workstation based on that technology is.

If the organ modelling algo runs, it runs, it´s one thing only.

In a multitimbral MIDI multi-mode workstation, several different software engines run simultaneously incl. all user editing here and there while playing keys and/or sequences/arpeggiators run and samples are streaming from disc etc.,- it´s much more complex.

 

I expect a Kronos, using the same processing ressources (Intel Atom 1.66 GHz dual core embedded) stresses the processor much more than a Crumar Mojo running VB3 v2.

I also expect Kronos software to be much more code and more code means more hidden bugs,- normally.

I don´t want to say Kronos doesn´t work as expected and I mention Kronos only because of the same processor/motherboard combo used.

 

Reliability was often the argument against usage of stock computer components, so that might rule for the Hamichord, Crumar Mojo and Kronos, because these are the hardware instruments using the Intel Atom technology since the V-Machine was released.

I´m not aware of any other instruments using Intel Atom and motherboard, so I don´t know how reliable it will be under stress situations.

 

There is a new generation of Intel Atom in the pipeline and technology grows fast.

We´ll see more and more musical instruments using PC component technology in future,- so sooner or later we will have to adapt.

 

Time will tell whether manufacturers sell us crap or take care for their products and reliability.

I don´t buy too early and look which experiences early users report and it´s absolutely not impossible I decide for a Crumar Mojo and a Kronos some day and regardless what´s inside.

 

But I also don´t want to be the "beta-tester".

 

:-)

 

A.C.

 

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3 years ago, I was gigging with a full-software setup. 88 key controller, 61 key controller and a Thinkpad. Eventually added a Hammond XK-1 and a Kurz SP4-7 to the setup, now about half the gigs I do are just the XK and SP, and when I use the laptop setup, all the core essential sounds are coming from hardware, with the laptop providing the frosting. This way, if the laptop crashes (and it has, even though I keep it off the Net and am very careful about what I put onto it) I'm still covered and can finish the gig. Or at least have something to play while the laptop reboots.

Turn up the speaker

Hop, flop, squawk

It's a keeper

-Captain Beefheart, Ice Cream for Crow

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No, but not because I didn't want to, rather because it was a logistical nightmare I didn't particularly care to delve into at the time. I'm still considering adding a controller to my current "rig" (right now, a Roland XP-50 and nothing else) along with racking up my spectacularly stable desktop machine (I don't trust laptops any farther than I can throw them) to use as a softsynth server.
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3 years ago, I was gigging with a full-software setup. 88 key controller, 61 key controller and a Thinkpad. Eventually added a Hammond XK-1 and a Kurz SP4-7 to the setup, now about half the gigs I do are just the XK and SP, and when I use the laptop setup, all the core essential sounds are coming from hardware, with the laptop providing the frosting. This way, if the laptop crashes (and it has, even though I keep it off the Net and am very careful about what I put onto it) I'm still covered and can finish the gig. Or at least have something to play while the laptop reboots.

 

Have you run into latency issues when triggering sounds from the hardware and software simultaneously?

 

I've never used virtual instruments, but when my outputs went dead on my main keyboard several weeks ago, I ran it's SPDIF output through my laptop, just to get audio out of it (SPDIF in, analog out). My Aux out was still working, which carries the click on sequenced tracks. When I was just playing, I noticed no latency. But when there was a sequence, the click was coming directly out, and the sequenced tracks were going through the laptop. There was a very obvious latency that was very annoying to both me and the drummer.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Have you run into latency issues when triggering sounds from the hardware and software simultaneously?

 

I basically don't do that, because I haven't found the need to layer sounds from the laptop and hardware. But I have my system pretty finely tuned and the latency set very low. I can't remember the exact spec, and I'm at work right now. But for quite a while, I gigged with the XK as an upper board, and a lower board triggering LH bass and EP sounds, and never felt any latency between the parts. In general, I view the laptop as just another sound module, albeit one that takes way too long to start up and crashes occasionally...

Turn up the speaker

Hop, flop, squawk

It's a keeper

-Captain Beefheart, Ice Cream for Crow

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I think part of my problem is that my signal had to go in AND out of the computer. I was running it through LIVE because that's what was bundled with the interface. It was telling me 8.9mS, which I would think would be pretty negligible, but if that's in AND out, then we're talking more like 17.8mS which is very noticeable. I'm used to modifying my timing based on sounds with different attacks and such, but when it's triggered by a machine, the differences are glaring.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I use a Receptor. Works flawlessly for what I do. I also have a MacBook pro with Mainstage that I use on sessions that I may start using live here and there.
Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
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I would be interested in trying a laptop to run some piano software, plus I might like to try the VB3. This would be just for practice and to expand my pallette of sounds.

 

Can anyone recommend some piano software? Laptops are becoming so frickin' cheap that I am tempted to try something like that rather than buy a new board.

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I've used Mainstage and Ableton Live running NI Absynth and Massive plugs using an M-Audio Fast Track Pro interface on a Mac Book Pro and had no problems whatsoever. Maybe I'm just lucky! ;)
Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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My music computer is a several year old generic Dell running XP SP3, to which I have stripped every non-essential service and application.

 

 

Same rig. Works like a charm.

9 Moog things, 3 Roland things, 2 Hammond things and a computer with stuff on it

 

 

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Have you run into latency issues when triggering sounds from the hardware and software simultaneously?

 

Even I didn´t gig w/ a hardware/software combo up to now, I investigate in this and test systems in my home studio environment to do it if possible.

I have several computers and a lot of hardware keys and modules to test any combiations,- and yes, there ARE latency issues which become very obvious in a combination of software and hardware in use as tone generators and being triggered over MIDI by the same controller-keyboard.

 

If the hardware tonegenerator and the software-plugin both use percussive sounds layered at almost the same volume level,- you hear the offset.

The offset varies depending on which hardware modules and software instruments are layered and the complexity of software patches have also influence on the plugin´s behaviour itself.

 

But,- with a carefully planned range of usage of the software instruments and together w/ hardware tone generators,- you´re able to work around this issue and it also depends on how many VST/AU you use simultaneously in a setup for a performance of a song/ tune.

 

Plugins like VB3, consuming very low CPU, are very responsive while other plugins focus on complexity of sound and stress the system much more.

You´ll also find virtual instruments and FX plugins introducing hidden "look ahead" buffers which add more latency if he plugin is in the signal chain.

 

It´s probably a long process to find the right plugins and host system for the/your individual purpose and it can be done if you´re willing to invest the amount of time necessary, know exactly what you want and,- most importnant, later know what you system can´t do perfect.

 

In any case, most is better to realize w/ hardware and less time consuming, but also much more bulky and more expensive.

 

If you want compact, total recall, stability and lowest latency possible,- invest in DSP for synths (my recommendation is Sonic Core), control it by a laptop or rackmount PC (for programming and GUI) and use only these VSTs which cover sounds Sonic Core synths don´t cover,- the bread and butter stuff NI Kontakt covers p.ex..,- and use 2 keyboard controllers delivering sounds too.

 

If you only want to use a handfull of low CPU optimized VSTis, you could be fine w/ a cheaper native system too.

It all depends on how timing critical your work is and what your demands are.

 

There was a very obvious latency that was very annoying to both me and the drummer.

 

Can happen always and you only know after the investment/purchases are done and after you created your setup and use it.

 

A.C.

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