Am I wrong thinking I can really gig with VST's?

[timwat]

 

Frankly, as a new player, I think you should be focusing on making your playing more clean, more professional, and becoming a better performer than playing with the latest and greatest toys. Your audience will absolutely notice.

 

As with everything on this forum, YMMV.

 

This.

 

Just my 0.02 - what you play is far more important than what you play it with.

 

My historical context - gigged software on a MacBook Pro with SSD for about a year and a half. Still ran into instability and glitches, often occurring in mission-critical, high-profile gig situations. I quit it and returned to hardware only. At this point I do not see myself ever going back to laptop based live rig, although I've learned to never say never.

 

For now I gig a Kronos 73, PC361 and keytar. More than enough rig for me.

 

[offnote]

Just my 0.02 - what you play is far more important than what you play it with.

 

OP is adult and he knows this, why not to answer his valid question without comments....

[AnalogGuy1]

In case anyone else has the same question, the stats on the responses (as I understand them, anyway) are:

 

39% say a VST solution is fine for gigging live

13% warn against using VST's for live use

43% are OT (but interesting!)

4% make a recommendation, but unclear what it is

 

With over half being on topic, that's a great signal to noise ratio for a forum! (timwat, I hear you; you are in the camp warning me against using them based on your personal experience. That's the kind of personal story I was hoping to hear from my question, although I'm sorry about your unfortunate result.)

[offnote]

BTW some guys years ago were gigging with something like this and didn't worry if it's safe...

 

http://www.audiomastermind.com/blog/wp-content/images/gabriel77.jpg

 

don't tell me one laptop with interface is more risky then this...

[timwat]

Just my 0.02 - what you play is far more important than what you play it with.

 

OP is adult and he knows this, why not to answer his valid question without comments....

 

Why not spend a little more time getting to know the community, and finish reading the REST of my short reply before posting asinine missives?

[offnote]

Why not spend a little more time getting to know the community, and finish reading the REST of my short reply before posting asinine missives?

 

why don't you understand who I was referring to?

getting to know community? please...

[Sven Golly]

why don't you understand who I was referring to?

 

Because you quoted him, dumbass.

[timwat]

In case anyone else has the same question, the stats on the responses (as I understand them, anyway) are:

 

39% say a VST solution is fine for gigging live

13% warn against using VST's for live use

43% are OT (but interesting!)

4% make a recommendation, but unclear what it is

 

With over half being on topic, that's a great signal to noise ratio for a forum! (timwat, I hear you; you are in the camp warning me against using them based on your personal experience. That's the kind of personal story I was hoping to hear from my question, although I'm sorry about your unfortunate result.)

 

You may be interested in the longer version of my anecdotal experience.

 

When Logic 8 was released, I was pretty wowed by the potential of Mainstage version 1. Because the majority of my live work is jazz based, I wasn't thrilled with Logic's EXS24 pianos and bought Ivory Italian Grand for acoustic piano. Had to run the standalone version of Ivory IG, as MS 1 didn't support hosting 3rd party stuff.

 

Result? Lots of glitches, instabilities, drop outs and the like. Worst was a couple of high profile gigs outdoors in 100+ degree heat. Laptop stopped producing sound, some modules locked up while others didn't - and all I could use was Kawai MP4's native piano. This happened more than once during a typical NorCal summer. Not good.

 

Fast forward to Logic 9 with Mainstage 2. Lots more stable, now hosts Ivory AU native and everything. Even upgraded my MBP to SSD for lightning fast boots.

 

Result? Still having intermittent weird behavior with Ivory, and definitely NOT liking the fact that on-the-fly patch tweaking and the like requires previously configuring sliders and knobs on the controller. Impossible to pull up that cool pad or gritty lead on a whim in the middle of a tune.

 

So had already been leaning toward going 100% back to hardware - Casio PX3 provided a stopgap piano for a few months - and when Kronos came out it pretty much solved the needs I had - it's not perfect but provides the immediacy and stability of hardware, with large-sample acoustic piano detail. Upgraded OS in Kurz now provides clonewheel that satisfies my limited B3 emulation needs (which aren't heavy enough to demand a more specialized solution).

 

What did I learn the hard way? My personal gig needs included specifics that some here share, others don't. But they included enough variables to warrant me going back 100% HW. YMMV.

[yannis D]

People who gig with laptop are NOT a minority any more.

 

I realize that English is your second language (or third, or fourth..), and I certainly don't speak Greek, but this is not an accurate statement. If they are NOT a minority, then they are a MAJORITY? I don't think so.

 

English is not my first language indeed, but i guess i can manage it speaking them (and french BTW...). What i mean in my thread is that people using VSTs "and" hardware on stage (i specified this later on, i'm using both and i talk from my own experience...) may be half of the active keysmen or even more than that. I don't think people using only VSTs on stage are a majority. They're still a minority, but even this will change in the near future IMO.

[Sven Golly]

What i mean in my thread is that people using VSTs "and" hardware on stage ... may be half of the active keysmen or even more than that.

 

Strongly, and I mean vociferously, disagree with this statement. I can pretty much guarantee that half of the members of this forum don't use VSTs on stage, and this forum represents the more technically minded keyboardists in the world.

 

Don't believe me? Go ahead and put up a poll.

 

[mcgoo]

I've been gigging with a Laptop for the last 4 years or so. I've pretty much worked out instability issues, but there was definitely some trial & error of finding out what I could & couldn't do & what CPU / RAM intensive plugs were & weren't worth using.

 

Biggest single factor that can bring my system to its knees is if there's a power out. The Laptop won't power cycle (because of its internal battery), but the audio interface will. When that happens, the Laptop dumps the drivers & I have to reboot. That could take a whole song by the time it's back up & my gig setup is reloaded. I have a 1/2 rack module in my rig there as a backup (and I even use an odd sound from it here & there) just in case.

 

One of these days maybe I'll get a bus powered interface which (I hope) would eliminate that scenerio.

[joeljjison]

Hi Analogguy,

 

I do not believe you are wrong. Firstly, I'd like to make a few more broad points;

 

I believe that how well you know how to use your gear is far more important than what you gear is. Ie, its better to stick for something for longer and really learn how to use it for everything you need.

 

However, regardless of the stability or instability of your set up... if your scared when you go on stage, its not for you. You have to get over the fear or change your set up.

 

If you regularly practice at home with your laptop based set up without problems you should be fine. I do believe though the laptop you trust for stage use should not be frivolously used for internet, games, and... all the millions of things a computer does that aren't running VST's.

 

I've used computer set ups before, and I've experienced instability ONCE. It completely put me off. But I had a computer that was slow, and full or rubbish, with not as much RAM as I'd have liked.

 

Somebody mentioned the Muse Receptor as an option, but an expensive one.

 

The entry level one is £1350 in England... you could almost get three for a Nord Stage 2 88 keys...

 

I'm actually going to a shop to demo one later this week, and I may try and post about it in this forum.

 

I sometimes think a key problem with the laptop set up is that VST's are always improving, and pushing the boundaries of what computers do. If we had smaller computer sounds, that were merely on the level of good hardware solutions, you may gain amazing stability, in addition to the already relatively infinite sound choice, and having a laptop as a sound module.

 

I'm hoping the receptor proves to be something I could trust...

[Gary75]

I have a Receptor I use on gigs, it's a Rev C. I use Scarbee Rhodes and Clav on it, and that's it. Those two sounds take up nearly 1.8GB. I don't use DFD and run it at 64 in the buffer. I also use a UPS, and touch wood, so far I have not had any problems since I brought it out of retirement.

[AnalogGuy1]

D'oh...I never thought about adding a UPS to the setup as a heavy-duty form of power conditioning and isolation; that's a great idea. Even in my very limited experience we once were powered from a giant old diesel generator - and it was flaky.

[davinwv]

I'm geographically isolated, so it means a lot to me to hear your advice and stories. Glad to know I'm not as alone in the VST thing as I first thought reading through some of the posts here. Thanks!

 

I am geographically isolated as well. I have been using VSTs live since October, 2008, and have never looked back. I have only experienced instability on a couple of occaisions, and I believe extreme heat outdoors was a contributing factor in both. In any case, I was back up and running in about 20 seconds or so.

 

I run all my instruments in Cantabile Performer at 128 samples. All the instruments - VB3, Scarbee Vintage Keys, Garritan Steinway, and Orchestral String Runs ensemble strings - feel like hardware.

 

I doubt I will ever go back to hardware.

[David Loving]

Sven - you're right - I did not think it through about Leon Russell - for all I know, directly, he had the lyrics on his laptop! :idk

[MuzikTeechur]

People who gig with laptop are NOT a minority any more.

 

If they are NOT a minority, then they are a MAJORITY? I don't think so.

 

wrong logic - it can be fifty fifty.

Math was not your first or second (or third?) subject I guess.

 

 

I'll grant your point - that it could be 50/50, but it's not. People who use VSTs ARE a minority. It could be, perhaps, a plurality, but the original point remains.

 

[Moonglow]

In case anyone else has the same question, the stats on the responses (as I understand them, anyway) are:

 

39% say a VST solution is fine for gigging live

13% warn against using VST's for live use

43% are OT (but interesting!)

4% make a recommendation, but unclear what it is

 

I'm wondering if that 13% would be statistically significant at the alpha = 0.05 level. My gut says yes. If I can find the time, I will conduct a simple chi square analysis, which would be the appropriate statistical test based on the nature of the (i.e., nonparametric) data you have provided......albeit from a non-randomly-selected sample. Of course, as to whether this would translate to practical significance is for you to discern. Myself, I've been exclusively using hardware for 30 years, largely based on the proportion of variance associated with reliability/stability issues among that 13%. However, I would be interested in seeing the data relating to the occurrence of live performance issues among those using rigs that involve correctly-configured set-ups, using computers exclusive for live performance applications, and controlling for other confounding variables mentioned in this thread.

[JeffLearman]

My Thinkpad never had problems in >100 degree outdoor gigs, which I had a couple, but we were always in the shade (thank goodness). Humidity was high too; that's NC for ya. I was more worried about the 100' extension cords and have since got some 12 guage ones to make sure.

 

Baby powder is a staple in my gig bag for those outdoor gigs. I've had to use it inside a few times, too.

[Ashville.Guru]

Biggest single factor that can bring my system to its knees is if there's a power out. The Laptop won't power cycle (because of its internal battery), but the audio interface will. When that happens, the Laptop dumps the drivers & I have to reboot. That could take a whole song by the time it's back up & my gig setup is reloaded. I have a 1/2 rack module in my rig there as a backup (and I even use an odd sound from it here & there) just in case.

 

One of these days maybe I'll get a bus powered interface which (I hope) would eliminate that scenerio.

 

Mcgoo, I've had the same problem, and found a workaround to it. Crude, but way better than having to reboot on stage . What OS and DAW/host you're using...?

[mcgoo]

Biggest single factor that can bring my system to its knees is if there's a power out. The Laptop won't power cycle (because of its internal battery), but the audio interface will. When that happens, the Laptop dumps the drivers & I have to reboot. That could take a whole song by the time it's back up & my gig setup is reloaded. I have a 1/2 rack module in my rig there as a backup (and I even use an odd sound from it here & there) just in case.

 

One of these days maybe I'll get a bus powered interface which (I hope) would eliminate that scenerio.

 

Mcgoo, I've had the same problem, and found a workaround to it. Crude, but way better than having to reboot on stage . What OS and DAW/host you're using...?

 

Win XP Home, Sonar Producer 8.0

[HammondDave]

If I ever go back to live performing, I will be going the VST route. Played a couple of my last gigs with the VB3 on my PowerBook Pro. It completely blows every other clone out of the water... The perfect rig would be a Xk3c system running the VB3... But I am not going back to that... Probably a lightweight controller with my laptop.

[offnote]

Biggest single factor that can bring my system to its knees is if there's a power out. The Laptop won't power cycle (because of its internal battery), but the audio interface will. When that happens, the Laptop dumps the drivers & I have to reboot. That could take a whole song by the time it's back up & my gig setup is reloaded. I have a 1/2 rack module in my rig there as a backup (and I even use an odd sound from it here & there) just in case.

 

One of these days maybe I'll get a bus powered interface which (I hope) would eliminate that scenerio.

 

have you heard about Uninterruptible Power Supply? It's cheap and effective. You connect all your laptop peryferials to this box and you forget about power out problem.

 

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachments/non-linear-editing-pc/19543d1284830546-uninterruptible-power-supply-what-brand-software-do-you-use-br1500lcd.jpg

[CEB]

That is actually a nice thing to have for digital hardware in a hardware only rig.

[mcgoo]

Biggest single factor that can bring my system to its knees is if there's a power out. The Laptop won't power cycle (because of its internal battery), but the audio interface will. When that happens, the Laptop dumps the drivers & I have to reboot. That could take a whole song by the time it's back up & my gig setup is reloaded. I have a 1/2 rack module in my rig there as a backup (and I even use an odd sound from it here & there) just in case.

 

One of these days maybe I'll get a bus powered interface which (I hope) would eliminate that scenerio.

 

have you heard about Uninterruptible Power Supply? It's cheap and effective. You connect all your laptop peryferials to this box and you forget about power out problem.

 

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachments/non-linear-editing-pc/19543d1284830546-uninterruptible-power-supply-what-brand-software-do-you-use-br1500lcd.jpg

 

Of course I have, you silly goose. But there's the schlep factor, & the cost factor (for a good one). I haven't had power outage problems on gigs alot-twice that I can remember, and only once when it (metaphorically) caught me with my pants down.

[offnote]

I haven't had power outage problems on gigs alot-twice that I can remember, and only once when it (metaphorically) caught me with my pants down.

 

I'm sure audience loved it :grin:

[Ashville.Guru]

Biggest single factor that can bring my system to its knees is if there's a power out.

...

One of these days maybe I'll get a bus powered interface which (I hope) would eliminate that scenerio.

 

Mcgoo, I've had the same problem, and found a workaround to it. Crude, but way better than having to reboot on stage . What OS and DAW/host you're using...?

 

Win XP Home, Sonar Producer 8.0

Oops, sorry, can't help you there - while reading your post, I mixed up 2 different issues; I've had problems with both. One is of the keyboard USB-midi driver being dumped, the other of the audio driver being dumped. I use Ableton Live, and an update solved the audio issue for me. For the midi issue, I found a neat Ableton-specific solution, and a general one.

This is one reason where USB scores over firewire - you can use bus-power on laptops. 1 cable to connect, no wall-wart PSU.

[johnchop]

FWIW, the only gear failure I've seen at recent gigs I've played has been the guitar or bass player's rig. Amps + pedal chains in both cases. Then again, neither gig involved real money.

 

Anway, I'd treat a software solution on a paying gig as I would a DAW for billed studio hours: don't screw with something that works, at least not without testing.

 

Actually, the same philosophy applies to "hardware": I wouldn't update a Nord or Kurz PC3 to the latest OS right before a gig. Once I did update, I would run through all my patch changes as if I were playing the gig to minimize snafus.

 

-John

[offnote]

Anway, I'd treat a software solution on a paying gig as I would a DAW for billed studio hours: don't screw with something that works, at least not without testing.

 

Actually, the same philosophy applies to "hardware": I wouldn't update a Nord or Kurz PC3 to the latest OS right before a gig. Once I did update, I would run through all my patch changes as if I were playing the gig to minimize snafus.

 

-John

 

+1

 

I don't know from where this perception that hardware is more reliable then software come from. Good software at least can recover if the fuse breaks...

[johnchop]

Good software at least can recover if the fuse breaks...

 

And not so much if something ELSE breaks.

 

Again, I think it's a matter of understanding risks, mitigating them to your comfort level, and then getting on with it or not.

 

 

-John