Kurzweil PC3K series now complete

[AnotherScott]

128MG seems so archaic. Even a GB of RAM seems too small.

The problem is that high speed Flash memory that can be executed "in place" (i.e. addressed as RAM rather than storage) is still very expensive. The alternative would be streaming from storage, which is what Kronos does... but I suspect they are only able to do it because the approach is fundamentally supported in the board's Linux underpinnings, and the rest of the hardware is in place to support it. And even then, samples must be specifically optimized to be able to stream (at least so far, it can't be done with user samples).

[TechEverlasting]

Waiting a hour for a sample bank to save is exactly what I mean about it being old technology. That was the kind of performance we use to see in the dark ages.

 

How often do you need to change your sample library for musical theater?

 

Mike T.

 

Just to clarify, what I'm talking about there is backing up a sample library to external USB storage. This isn't something that has to be done often. When I turn my PC3K8 on and 15 seconds later have all my favorite K2 sample libraries at my finger tips along with an amazingly powerful VA synth I don't feel at all like I'm in the dark ages.

 

I can't think of any case where one would load samples during a musical theater gig, although this used to happen all the time back when Akai S900s were in use. The whole point of musical theater is to come up with the best possible bank of sounds and then have it be there unchanged for every single show. I know that some top-40 band players will load different instrument samples up during a gig. This isn't something that would be viable on a PC3K.

[J. Dan]

I've said this before, so I'll apologize in advance for getting back on my soapbox - but everybody's implementation is archaic....Kronos doesn't really stream for all practical purposes, because samples the user creates are not streamed, but have to be pre-loaded into RAM. That's no different than technology that's been around since the beginning of sampling.

 

10 years ago, Alesis implemented sampling on the Fusion the way it should be, IMO (too bad it had so many other shortcomings, bugs, etc). It loads samples from the internal HD on demand into ram FIFO. Once you call up a patch, it's essentially preloaded until you pull up enough new samples to kick it out of the cache. This is exactly the way any computer works. When you open a file, it loads from the HD into RAM. Imagine if, in order to edit a document, you had to preload that file when you boot your computer. You could only open preloaded files. Wanna open another one? Have to restart and preload it. How ridiculous is that? On my fusion, even the largest samples only take a couple seconds to load, because you're only loading one or two at a time, and most are virtually instantaneous. I generally "preload" the first set, and everything's pretty instantaneous after that. But even if I didn't, a second or two between songs isn't bad. I just can't understand why others haven't gone that route - especially when they are basically computer based, and that's how computers tend to work anyway.

[AnotherScott]

The Alesis approach would not work as a substitute for Korg's streaming on the Kronos, because (unless I'm mistaken) the Alesis samples themselves could still all fit into RAM. The Kronos cannot load a 4.7 gb piano sample into 1 gB of RAM, therefore it must stream off the SSD in real time. (And I'd say that kind of streaming is a significant feature, even if you discount its usefulness because that feature--at least so far--only works with factory samples.)

[J. Dan]

The Alesis approach would not work as a substitute for Korg's streaming on the Kronos, because (unless I'm mistaken) the Alesis samples themselves could still all fit into RAM. The Kronos cannot load a 4.7 gb piano sample into 1 gB of RAM, therefore it must stream off the SSD in real time. (And I'd say that kind of streaming is a significant feature, even if you discount its usefulness because that feature--at least so far--only works with factory samples.)

 

Yes, you are correct there. But again, streaming is only available for factory samples, which is no different than playing ROM sounds from traditional workstations (ROMplers). So yes, while it's significant, if you're using it as a true sampler, there is no advantage. The Alesis DOES stream audio tracks from HD (up to 8 if i'm not mistaken), but those can only be used in a song, and not triggered from the keyboard.

 

Now, if Korg would update the technology so that user samples could be streamed, that would be a....wait for it.....game changer.

[AnotherScott]

But again, streaming is only available for factory samples, which is no different than playing ROM sounds from traditional workstations (ROMplers).

I understand your wish for it to work on user samples, but I would not say that what they are doing is no different from ROMplers. Custom ROMs aren't cheap enough... no keyboard has a 4.7 gb piano in ROM, much less two of them. ALso, Korg can come out with new pianos and you'll be able to stream those instead, whereas ROM based models could not have their sounds swapped out for new/alternate ones. Also, if you don't need the pianos, you can take them out of the pre-load and free up some more RAM for your own samples. Really, it may not do what you want, but it is still fundamentally different from what other boards have done in the past.

[MikeT156]

Great info you guys, thanks for the clarification.

 

Techeverlasting: do you ever have to change your library when the theater you're providing the music for does a different show?

 

USB can be slow, the SSD seems to be the way things are going. But for a large amount of storage at a low price USB drives are hard to beat.

 

 

Mike T.

[TechEverlasting]

 

Techeverlasting: do you ever have to change your library when the theater you're providing the music for does a different show?

 

Mike T.

 

Sure, I seldom use the exact same set of samples twice. There are often unusual instruments needed as well as sound effects and occasionally pre-recorded vocal cues. Once a show's basic set of samples is finalized it doesn't change, and nothing ever gets loaded during a show.

 

As interesting as the Fusion concept is, this wouldn't work for what I do. I need to be able to instantly go from any one sampled sound to any other. This is a big problem with using many VSTs for theater, most of them take some time to change sounds. I can't even switch between two variations of an Ivory 2 piano that use identical keysets without an audible glitch. Kontakt's pre-loaded instrument banks accessible from MIDI program change are invaluable for this sort of thing.

[MikeT156]

Not having to load anything new during a show makes your life easier. Have you ever had occasion to get a power glitch while a show is in progress and then have to reboot, or do you use a continuous power supply? As they say, the show must go on.....

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Mike T.

[Delaware Dave]

hmmm, the Kronos uses the Karma and the CX-3 technology. How old are they?

[TechEverlasting]

Have you ever had occasion to get a power glitch while a show is in progress and then have to reboot, or do you use a continuous power supply? As they say, the show must go on.....

 

 

Mike T.

 

Yes, the occasion has arisen, unfortunately. A two minute boot-up might as well be eternity if you're in the middle of a show. Continuous power supplies help, but one time I had a viola player lean back and pull out the IEC cable with his chair.

 

So far the PC3K8 has been a rock-solid performer, and the fact that it can be back up and running in 15 seconds no matter what is a major plus.

[MikeT156]

by Delaware Dave:

 

hmmm, the Kronos uses the Karma and the CX-3 technology. How old are they?

 

Not quite as old as your ancient Hammond equipment, or possibly the VAST engine in your PC3.

 

In this case I was speaking of processing power and memory/storage capability, for the most part.

 

For example, I mentioned that the PC3K only has 128 MB of RAM to load samples. Now that can be misleading, in the case of the Yamaha Motif XF, it has a small amount of sample RAM, but libraries can be loaded directly to the Flash Memory cards with instant access to what is stored on them the same as the factory ROM.

 

The other thing that is important is how large a piano sample can you load and play, or stream for SSD? The Kurzweil triple strike piano seems ancient when compared to that standard.

 

I don't mean to diss Kurzweil, I for one would not buy a KB without a sampler or at least sample memory. So the K series is a welcome addition to the PC3 line. Kurzweil was WAY ahead of the competition in terms of quality libraries over 10 years ago, so technology alone is not going to render quality sounds obsolete.

 

Computer power is so cheap these days that when I see an instrument that does not or cannot address huge blocks of RAM as a potential dinosaur. I know we all have to keep in mind that KB's on the market today may have started being designed two years ago, so we are not going to get the latest and greatest in technology.

 

Edit: Techeverlasting. That 15 second boot-up is pretty quick, for sure. My Motif ES8 takes WAY longer than that to load my User banks and samples.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Mike T.

[Cowzar]

by Delaware Dave:

I don't mean to diss Kurzweil, I for one would not buy a KB without a sampler or at least sample memory. So the K series is a welcome addition to the PC3 line. Kurzweil was WAY ahead of the competition in terms of quality libraries over 10 years ago, so technology alone is not going to render quality sounds obsolete.

 

When you load a K-series sample into the PC3K, you still have to do work. Most here are experienced K2 users and understand what needs to be done when they bring the samples into the PC3K. If you are expecting to load in and play - then you may not like what you hear. In fact, you may not hear anything.

 

I don't want anyone unfamiliar with a Kurzweil to think they can buy a PC3K and grab a K2 library, load in and play. You won't. You will need to do editing. Grab the PC3K manual (PDF) and look at the chapter on "Legacy File Conversion"

 

 

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

Not quite as old as your ancient Hammond equipment

Seeing that the KB3 organ and leslie simulation have been revamped in the last 6 months, I guess I'd have to challenge that statement

[AnotherScott]

hmmm, the Kronos uses the Karma and the CX-3 technology. How old are they?

Not quite as old as your ancient Hammond equipment

Seeing that the KB3 organ and leslie simulation have been revamped in the last 6 months, I guess I'd have to challenge that statement

I think Mike's point was that your ancient '57 and '69 Hammonds still sound great. Newer technology does not necessarily equal better sound. And for that matter, the 10 year old (or whatever) CX3 technology still sounds better than the newest KB3, IMO.

[MikeT156]

by Another Scott:

 

I think Mike's point was that your ancient '57 and '69 Hammonds still sound great. Newer technology does not necessarily equal better sound. And for that matter, the 10 year old (or whatever) CX3 technology still sounds better than the newest KB3, IMO.

 

Indeed. As much as I like the portability of the Hammond Clones, I still have to give the prize to my original B3 and Leslie I had years ago. Carrying a console organ around back in the seventies was a big pain for everyone, but nothing really sounds quite as good as a B3 and Leslie 122. Its still the most sought after sound pure organists want to hear. Technology has done a remarkable job of coming real close to that sound, but that certainly doesn't render the original B3 obsolete.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Found these two links today over at the SonikMatter forum. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't really lay down the funk, blues, and rock with a PC3. The sound still depends more on the PLAYER than the hardware!

 

 

 

Some real tasty playing - piano, Rhodes, brass, Hammond.

(links are work/family safe)

 

[poserp]

Computer power is so cheap these days that when I see an instrument that does not or cannot address huge blocks of RAM as a potential dinosaur. I know we all have to keep in mind that KB's on the market today may have started being designed two years ago, so we are not going to get the latest and greatest in technology.

 

A lot has to do with architecture. While we're used to desktop processors being very feature rich, their microcontroller brethren might not be so heavy-weight. Generally speaking, keyboard manufacturers do one one of the following:

 

1 -- Desktop processor + software

2 -- Microcontroller + other chips

 

Unless, of course, the board is fully analog. Anyways, the PC3/K/LE series fall into that second category. There is a microcontroller and two MARA chips (one on the LE keyboards). AFAIK, the MARA chips can't directly access memory, so the microcontroller is responsible for doing so. It's also the chip that runs the OS and computes control signals (i.e. evaluate FUNs, sample control sources, generate LFO and Envelopes, etc). Thus all the "limitations" of the PC3/K/LE series have to do with the limitations of the microcontroller that's running the whole show. Most of these parts aren't multi-threaded, they're running real-time operating systems (which don't operate like desktop operating systems), and so on. My guess is the microcontroller in the PC3 series instruments can't address more than about 256 megs of memory, since the onboard flash (for storing os/programs/etc) is 64mb, and there's room for a 64mb expansion and 128mb expansion.

[pawel]

HOW long as you can load samples into PC3K?

PS: im record movie

[pawel]

http://www.muzykuj.com/testy/instrumenty-klawiszowe/kurzweil/kurzweil-pc3k8-test,369.html

Test from Poland.

Pictures, mp3 samples and video.