Is anyone else here "over" drums?

[Scott Fraser]

Part of it may be the expense of full drums-what a waste it would be to have a set sitting around while you play bongos at gigs. But that`s just what a lot of bands do here-rehearsal and venue space is really expensive so a lot of groups play in parks and at train stations. The drummers often use something like this:

http://www.flamencoexport.com/all-flamenco/flamenco-percussion-box-and-stems/la-peru-flamenco-cajon-drums/natural-profesional--flamenco-percussion-boxbox-drum---la-peru.html

 

The cajon is a great all-in-one percussion solution. Lots of the world music guys I work with have incorporated it into their bag of tricks. Some have built kits around tabla, djembe and/or darbukka. There's a lot a creative percussionist can do to construct a unique gear set up, to produce his/her own unique take on the vast world of percussive sounds.

[Larryz]

Drums are good for a dance band (gotta have them)...but otherwise they are not necessary...I don't like drum machines except for practice at home...I also do not like the canned backup music or vocal harmonizers in live situations...I can handle a looper though from time to time...but yes, I'm over drummers (I still enyoy playing with them when the oppertunity arises)...

[Gifthorse]

Also it depends on the drummer you are playing with. Some guys are more interactive, and think about the whole mix--not just the drums.

 

Unfortunately most rock drummers insist on playing super loud all of the time.

 

At least in my limited exposure.

 

I really think electronic kits are awesome coupled with modeling for guitars and bass. That way you can get a studio quality mix that is not too loud.

 

I hear you about having music that isn't dependant on drums. For acoustic live it is very difficult to get a good stage mix when there are drums, bass, vocals. Seems like acoustic guitar has less midrange than electric (dpending on how you dial it in of course). Kind of gets buried in the mix.

 

In fact I HATE playing acoustic live.

 

I felt privileged in my last band to play with our drummer. He made it creative and fun to play, also he could play to a click perfectly in 1 or 2 takes. He could improvise, and was always tasty in his approach. Best part---he could/would play quietly and was always dynamic to the mix we were going for.

 

Unfortunately in Detroit we had no market for our music and couldn't even get a gig. I know that was because we didn't play covers--but still, I wish we had lived in a city like Denver or something where people appreciate acoustic music more.

 

We would play with 6 bands. You know, a speed metal band, a hip hop group, a blues band, us, and a poet or something. HORRIBLE lineup. BY the time we played people were already leaving the bar. LOL

[d halfnote]

I'd say that the evolution of the "trap kit" drum-set and its use has been every bit as influential and important in the development of modern music as that of the guitar and the Fender-style electric bass. It would be hard to steer a major trend away from its being central to the rhythm-section and generally expected, accepted conventions of popular music styles.

 

Cuban music, and its prime offshoots of mambo & salsa, has gotten by without trap kits, & become hugely popular in the Latin world.

Just 2 sides of the same thing:

both are a collection of various perc insts that deliver a variety of sounds.

[d halfnote]

I remember one situation playing guitar at church, where the singer was complaining that they "literally had to scream" - in a room with a very low ceiling. I tried to tell her, "my (small) amp is only on 1", but really, the problem was the DRUMS, not me, because they had no complaints when it was just me and the keyboardist.

 

The drummer was doing nothing wrong, but in that acoustic environment, they'd be too loud if they just LOOKED at the drums, LOL!

There are ways, both in the playing, the strikers & the drum setup, to modify loudness...(which Caeven pointed out already, I now realize).

 

[Chad Thorne]

"'Over' drums?"

 

No.

 

Sometimes I like playing music that doesn't include drums. More often I prefer to play with a drummer, given that it's one of the very fine, tasteful, sympathetic guys I routinely play with, or somebody equally good. I've always been "over" playing with lousy drummers.

[Eric Iverson]

Sometimes I like listening to music that doesn't include instrumentalists at all... a capella vocal harmony can be gorgeous!

 

Mostly I just don't like a "one size fits all" approach. Tasteful drumming is great in the right context. Tasteful "anything" is also!

 

But then, sometimes it's cool to someone going for the gusto, even if it's not exactly "tasteful"!

 

But don't tell that to a kid with a big amp (and lots of effects)who has never played in a band before, LOL! Or God forbid, a bass player.....

 

[Chad Thorne]

But then, sometimes it's cool to someone going for the gusto, even if it's not exactly "tasteful"!

 

But don't tell that to a kid with a big amp (and lots of effects)who has never played in a band before, LOL! Or God forbid, a bass player.....

Oh, let's just take a little poll (NOT on the guitar forum!) of who people feel routinely and typically plays too loud in a band. I've got a nickel that says it won't be the bass player!

 

Dissing bass players. I'll drop you like a bad transmission...

[Eric Iverson]

You're right, Chad, not all bass players play way too loud, by any means - in the jazz ensemble I'm in, they certainly don't.

I just had a couple of bad experiences with kids who would play as if they had to be heard in the next county, with the speaker right in my ear, and when I asked them to turn down "just a little" they did so, and then when my back was turned, turned the MOFO UP!

No it's not fair to paint all bass players with that brush!

 

Re: bass. I have a beautiful old Fender Precision my dad gave me (he paid $150 for it) I'd love to play in a band - if it's simple music, I think I could handle it! I definitely enjoy playing guitar with good bass players - it makes it ten times easier to play good lead lines if you have that kind of solid support!

 

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

I have never been in a band where the bass player plays to loud. It is always the guitar player, and that person is me! Further, many times the bass player is the best musician in the band.

[A String]

I'd be more inclined to say that the bass is often too quite. I like to hear the bass and the mood it can bring to the band. I hate when it is so far down in the mix that it's just a low sound you can pick out if you listen closely. Paul McCartney's bass is a good example of where it should be in the mix, IMO.

[skipclone 1]

I have definitely heard some overloud bass players-makes Sade`s mixes sound inaudible. The problem vis guitar is the nature of the instruments-if there are vocals and the guitar is too loud, they are competing in almost the same frequency range. Even a ridiculously loud bass allows vocals to be heard.

[Eric Iverson]

True, but it's still ridiculously loud!

[Beat Poet]

One thing alot of drummers overlook is choosing the right sticks for the song. Rods and brushes can really add some "maturity" to a basic beat. I love mallets, they produce a rich orchestral sound.

 

There aren't any rules about what sticks to use either. I played with a singer where on some songs I had a mallet in one hand and a wood stick in the other...or sometimes a shaker in one hand and a rod in the other. Open your drummer's mind up!

[Eric Iverson]

I'm working with some up and coming drummers in the jazz ensemble - not as their INSTRUCTOR, LOL - and sometimes questions such whether to use sticks or brushes come up.

 

I agree that there is unexplored tonal territory for drums, same as any other instrument.

[LarryN]

The who is louder problem can be any amplified instrument or drums. It's hard to be objective. Sometimes a player will be in the main path of another player's sound or next to loud drums and turn up to hear themselves. Having my amp off the floor closer to my ears helps. I also stand in front of my speaker. It's good if you can negotiate speaker placement. Some drummers like to hammer on the music without realizing it. It can be painful. I worked with a drummer that I called "the Cadillac" (Kevin Dillon) because it was such a comfortable ride.

[Eric Iverson]

This is why musicians on stage need to have a trusted person go out and hear the sound as it's heard in the audience, because none of us hear that when we're on stage!

And yes, all of us want to make sure WE'RE heard, regardless. But the idea is that EVERYONE should be heard clearly, isn't it? Yes, back off on the volume when appropriate, and turn up when it's right to do so.

But ideally, the audience should hear beautiful music, with nothing getting buried in the mix.

[Griffinator]

And yes, all of us want to make sure WE'RE heard, regardless.

 

When I'm on stage, all I care about is whether I can hear myself alongside everyone else. It's the sound man's job to make sure the audience can hear me.

[whitefang]

I'm coming in way late to this discussion, but I want to bring up what Scott said about Ringo playing the song and not just supplying the beat. It's essentially why Buddy Rich said he liked Ringo as a drummer better than Billy Cobham. Ringo played no more than what the music required. Cobham tried to outshine all the other musicians.

 

It's rare the drummer who can play the song AND still manage to shine without being overbearing. For my money, the only ones I can think of are Ansley Dunbar, Mitch Mitchell and Bill Bruford.

Whitefang

[Dr. Ellwood]

I'm coming in way late to this discussion, but I want to bring up what Scott said about Ringo playing the song and not just supplying the beat. It's essentially why Buddy Rich said he liked Ringo as a drummer better than Billy Cobham. Ringo played no more than what the music required. Cobham tried to outshine all the other musicians.

 

It's rare the drummer who can play the song AND still manage to shine without being overbearing. For my money, the only ones I can think of are Ansley Dunbar, Mitch Mitchell and Bill Bruford.

Whitefang

 

Charlie Watts

[whitefang]

Y'know, I'll have to dig up some Stones recordings and listen more closely. Watts IS better than average, but I really don't recall( off hand)him SHINING.

 

I'll get back to you on that...

Whitefang

[skipclone 1]

Having my amp off the floor closer to my ears helps.

 

I think this is a good idea in general, both for overall sound and hearing yourself.

[Larryz]

This is why musicians on stage need to have a trusted person go out and hear the sound as it's heard in the audience, because none of us hear that when we're on stage!

And yes, all of us want to make sure WE'RE heard, regardless. But the idea is that EVERYONE should be heard clearly, isn't it? Yes, back off on the volume when appropriate, and turn up when it's right to do so.

But ideally, the audience should hear beautiful music, with nothing getting buried in the mix.

 

+1 always nice to have a couple of trusted buddies in the audience who can let you know to turn up or down while on stage...great technique and it avoids problems with the soundman diming your guitar and/or mic...

[Beat Poet]

Someone

It's rare the drummer who can play the song AND still manage to shine without being overbearing. For my money, the only ones I can think of are Ansley Dunbar, Mitch Mitchell and Bill Bruford.

Whitefang

 

Ian Paice?

[whitefang]

Don't know him, poet. Tell me who he is and give some recommended hearings, and I'll enter with ears and mind wide open.

Whitefang

[stamplicker]

Drummer for Deep Purple....

[whitefang]

Oh, OK. Never knew their line-up, save for Blackmoore and the ever changing frontmen.

 

Sorry, but IMHO, I can't include him on my list.

Whitefang

[The Geoff]

Plus the One for Charie Watts. He was very active on the London Jazz scene for several years before joining the Stones & has a deep & very subtle understanding of groove.

 

 

We've just started a little country-rock trio - no drums - 2 x guitars & bass & vocals.

 

G.

 

We're off the ground in two weeks (15th Dec), going to my regular Open Mike night for our first public appearance. It'll be a first for Pete, out Lead Guitarist, who's a virgin (performer! ).

 

Numbers will be:

 

Take It Easy - Eagles

Mud on the Tyres - Brad Paisley

Love Don't Live Here Anymore - Lady Antebellum

 

I'll have a pal in the audience to tell me if the bass is too prominent.

 

G.

[Guitarzan]

i have no issues with drums, in fact what i listen to usually has an abundance to cool drumming as well as slick bass players.

[whitefang]

Speaking of slick bass players(and getting a bit off topic), I recently had the opportunity to here a better remix of Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels' "Jenny Take A Ride/See See Rider". I don't know who the bass player on that track was, but he was doing some phenominal work. Especially for the time period.

Whitefang