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Midi dilema


Keybass

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My rig consist of a CP-5 controlling a Motif XS rack and a Oberheim matrix 1000.

My other keyboard is a Hammond XK3c ( through a vent of course) midied to a slim phatty for lead sounds.

 

I am looking for a way to store all of my midi info for both keyboards to a preset.

Does such a thing exist?

 

Thanks for your help.

Peace

 

 

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My rig consist of a CP-5 controlling a Motif XS rack and a Oberheim matrix 1000.

My other keyboard is a Hammond XK3c ( through a vent of course) midied to a slim phatty for lead sounds.

 

I am looking for a way to store all of my midi info for both keyboards to a preset.

Does such a thing exist?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

You mean,- ALL your MIDI settings and dependencies into a single global preset ?

 

If YES,- you need an additional device, managing all your MIDI in your rig/setup incl. total recall of all the settings per patch/preset.

 

This could be a combination of laptop, MIDI application and MIDI interface (w/ physical MIDI I/Os) or a hardware device.

 

I´m sure, there are software apps existing doing this, but don´t use one myself.

Brainspawn Forte, designed for software instruments on a PC, is able to manage hardware devices too, p.ex..

AFAIK, Apple Mainstage does it too.

 

I´m using a discontinued MIDITEMP PMM88E MIDI/matrix switcher/processor unit,- which IMO is the best up today.

Using this, dedicated MIDI programming of your single keyboard-controllers and modules becomes obsolete,- the unit is the controller itself.

You set up your MIDI wireing and MIDI TX / RX channels on your keys/modules,- and from that point, all programming is centralized by using the units remote controller.

 

The MIDITEMP is a luxurious device from the 90th and rare, but there are similar and cheaper units existing, also from the past and to find @ebay,- like Digital Music Corporation MX-8, Waldorf or similar.

 

A.C.

 

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1. Ideally - you need a hardware solution. Check out the Midi Solutions website - they make custom stuff, too. Others might suggest a better hardware solution.

 

2. If you have an iPhone/iPad/iPod, you could use an app like Midi BreakoutBox, along with the iConnectMidi device.

 

3. A laptop, or ideally - a small, lightweight netbook. Depending on Mac/PC, lots of apps that will do the job. Remember - midi processing is NOT resource-hungry at all. So you can go ahead and let form factor - size, weight, etc - guide your choice. I'd go with the smallest netbook available. Actually, I'd prefer this over option #2 - with a Rolang UM-2G, the overall form factor is much more compact, lighter and robust.

 

Hope this helps, good luck!

This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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I am looking for a way to store all of my midi info for both keyboards to a preset.

 

You'll need to be more explicit here. "All of my midi info" is far too nondescript for us to be able to answer the question properly.

 

Are you asking for something to trigger your program changes for each song on all your gear with a single button press?

 

If so, you could pick up any old-school hardware MIDI sequencer that has 2 MIDI outputs (i.e. Roland MC-50), and program just the patch changes for each song into it, then simply select the 'song', hit play, and it would send the program change messages to your boards.

 

 

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The CP5 doesn't have "Master" mode per se, as Dan refers to it, but it does have that kind of ability to store presets that include Program Changes for attached devices, as does the Hammond XK-3c. However, this won't solve your problem, for one and maybe two reasons. The clear reason is that the MIDI zone functions built into both of these units only support up to 4 sound sources in a preset, and you're trying to control 5. The other possible problem is that I don't know if the units all have the proper jacks and routing capabilities to physically wire all 5 items together through combinations of MIDI INs, OUTs, and THRUs, to get all the Program Change data where it needs to go from one or the other of those keyboards... that would at least be a bit of a puzzle, which may or may not have a direct solution, it may need some kind of additional THRU or MERGE boxes. But again, since you have 5 devices, it's not even worth trying to figure that out.

 

As Al said, dedicated boxes for this purpose don't exist anymore, a used MX-8 would be a good way to go. It's a 6-in, 8-out MIDI patchbay with 50 storable presets that can include all the program changes.

 

As for Ashville's suggestion of the MIDI Breakout Box app, that's a bit complicated because you have two controlling keyboards, and that app is really designed as a 1-in device (a given preset can only route MIDI from a single MIDI channel). In a way, that may not matter, if you're not processing any input (leaving the various modules dedicated to their particular controllers just as they are now, and not looking for the program to manage any splits), then I guess you can leave the IN port empty and just add a 5-out Thru box to send the Program Changes out of the iPad to the 5 devices; though if you take that route, I think you'd also need some Merge boxes so that the modules can receive the Program Change command from the app and also the actual playing notes from the attached keyboard. This sounds okay to me in theory, at least. Note that it requires an iPad (it's iPad only... not iPhone/iPod). Also, any CoreMIDI interface should do, you don't need the pricey iConnectMIDI. The $29 Apple Camera Connection Kit and a standard USB->MIDI interface should do it.

 

Another way to go, requiring the least additional hardware, might be to use the Zone control features of both keyboards, and kind of link them. As I mentioned, both of your keyboards can control 4 sound sources, and you need to control 5. But let's say you used the CP5 to create a 4-sound-source preset consisting of an internal sound, an XS Rack patch, a Matrix 1000 patch, and an XK-3c patch... you'd be maxxed out... BUT I think you might in turn be able to have that XK-3C patch programmed to call up a sound on its attached Phatty, and that's how you would get the fifth device into the recalled CP5 preset. You're basically daisy-chaining the zoning capabilities of the two controllers combined. You might be able to do this with no additional hardware at all, if the Matrix 1000 has a MIDI thru function, otherwise you probably need a Thru box. The setup may be a bit convoluted initially, but I think it would do what you want. I think the same basic idea would work regardless of whether you want the CP5 or the XK-3c to be the source for your patch changes.

 

 

On the XK-3c, look in the manual under "ZONES" and you'll find information on storing MIDI channel, MSB, LSB, and Program Change information for up to three external sound sources in a single recallable preset. (Although this is commonly used to also assign the external sound to trigger from a portion of the XK-3c's own keyboard, it is not required that you do that. You can choose whether or not actual note-on information from the keyboard should be sent to those other devices, along with whether or not they should respond to various controllers).

 

Likewise, for the the CP5, look in the owners' manual under "Integrating with Other MIDI Devices" and for more detail, in the reference manual under "Zone Edit." The CP5 supports up to 4 zones which can be split among internal and external sources. Again, the external devices don't actually have to respond to any keys that you play. (Unlike the Hammond, I think you do technically have to assign them to a key range, but you could just assign them to a range of a single key that falls outside the 88 keys on the unit, so no key you play will ever trigger the device if you don't want it to... i.e. you may want the CP5 to send a patch change to the Hammond, but you don't necessarily ever want to play the Hammond sound from the CP5.) Again, each zone definition includes MIDI transmission channel, MSB, LSB, Program Change, and the ability to filter out controllers.

 

So by essentially daisy-chaining the functions of both units, you might be able to do what you need to control all 5 sound sources from a single patch change from one of the keyboards... the big question mark for me in this approach is whether the CP5 or XK3C can be set to recall patches that include their zoning functions, using plain Program Change commands over MIDI. Maybe this works on one of the two boards, or neither, or both. It would be an interesting experiment.

 

An example of why this is a variable here can be found in the Casio PX3. It has many internal patches that can be called up via external Program Change commands; and you can also create your own patches--"registrations"--that include MIDI routing and patch changes for attached devices; but if you want to call up one of those custom registrations from an external device, you can't do it with a Program Change command (it can be done with sysex, though). I don't know the architecture of either the CP5 or XK3c well enough to know whether something like this might come into play.

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I notice a real problem with the lack of midi knowledge of the generation of musicians who grew up after the heyday of fairly complex midi rack rigs of the 80s.

 

Everybody I knew back then had midi switchers and patchbays and master keyboards.

 

Who is going to answer midi questions when all of us old farts die off?

Moe

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"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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I notice a real problem with the lack of midi knowledge of the generation of musicians who grew up after the heyday of fairly complex midi rack rigs of the 80s.

 

I'm in that group. I was born in 1980, didn't get into playing keys until about 2000. I'm a midiot.

Stuff and things.
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The CP5 doesn't have "Master" mode per se, as Dan refers to it, but it does have that kind of ability to store presets that include Program Changes for attached devices, as does the Hammond XK-3c. However, this won't solve your problem, for one and maybe two reasons. The clear reason is that the MIDI zone functions built into both of these units only support up to 4 sound sources in a preset, and you're trying to control 5.

 

On the XK-3c, look in the manual under "ZONES" and you'll find information on storing MIDI channel, MSB, LSB, and Program Change information for up to three external sound sources in a single recallable preset. (Although this is commonly used to also assign the external sound to trigger from a portion of the XK-3c's own keyboard, it is not required that you do that. You can choose whether or not actual note-on information from the keyboard should be sent to those other devices, along with whether or not they should respond to various controllers).

 

True dat. I use the S70xs to control 3 units patch changes, including the XK3c. However, I use the XK to change patches on the Voyager as well, so when the XK gets a PC message from the S70xs, it in turn sends and appropriate PC change to the Voyager, when required.

What we record in life, echoes in eternity.

 

MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg.

https://www.abandoned-film.com

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I use the S70xs to control 3 units patch changes, including the XK3c. However, I use the XK to change patches on the Voyager as well, so when the XK gets a PC message from the S70xs, it in turn sends and appropriate PC change to the Voyager, when required.

Perfect! So it sounds like my theory about daisy-chaining the 4-program-zoning capabilities of the two boards to be able to invoke a single preset that will bring up 5 programs (one on each device) should work!

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I notice a real problem with the lack of midi knowledge of the generation of musicians who grew up after the heyday of fairly complex midi rack rigs of the 80s.

 

Everybody I knew back then had midi switchers and patchbays and master keyboards.

 

Who is going to answer midi questions when all of us old farts die off?

 

My guess is there won't be a need for such knowledge. At that point it will all be a plug and play GUI menu point select thing.

 

I am doing preliminary research on what gig board I want to get next year to replace the Kawai MP-5 and how the new board will control my rack. No one makes what I really want anymore. The world's concept of how to a implement midi rig must have changed since 80s and 90s. I'm a dinosaur, RRRRRRaugh!

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I use the S70xs to control 3 units patch changes, including the XK3c. However, I use the XK to change patches on the Voyager as well, so when the XK gets a PC message from the S70xs, it in turn sends and appropriate PC change to the Voyager, when required.

Perfect! So it sounds like my theory about daisy-chaining the 4-program-zoning capabilities of the two boards to be able to invoke a single preset that will bring up 5 programs (one on each device) should work!

 

Yessir. If I wanted to utilize all the controller options for program changes on the XK3c, and the 5 total on the S70xs, we're talking 11 keys or modules that could be controlled with a 2 button press off of a master keyboard controller.

What we record in life, echoes in eternity.

 

MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg.

https://www.abandoned-film.com

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Everybody I knew back then had midi switchers and patchbays and master keyboards.

 

I went MIDI-less last year, thinking I'd seen the back of such live rig monstrosities. Wrong. I've since been steadily re-aquiring modules, patchbay/processor (the unknown but mighty Function Junction), MIDI leads by the bucketful...

 

And programming everything to run Local Off again...aaaargh!!!

Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. - W. C. Fields

 

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I went MIDI-less last year, thinking I'd seen the back of such live rig monstrosities. Wrong. I've since been steadily re-aquiring modules, patchbay/processor (the unknown but mighty Function Junction), MIDI leads by the bucketful...

 

And programming everything to run Local Off again...aaaargh!!!

 

And that´s indeed the best way to go for live performances and larger rigs.

I kept my PMM88E and 2 Sycologic M16/M16R/M16x matrix switcher combos for that purpose,- even a Kurzweil PC3 can do almost anything a PMM88E does,- but the star type MIDI routing possibility is missing by the lack of enough MIDI I/Os.

 

Well, in the US, MIDITEMP is extremely hard to find used and Sycologic is rare like hell everywhere in the world,- but in the US, J.L. Cooper MIDI boxes were very popular and a friend of mine, keyboardist and pro studio owner, he uses a J.L. Cooper 15 In x 20 Out up today, 2 of the inputs mergable.

 

The Audio Architecture Function Junction is a fine box b.t.w. and also a cheap MX-8 does processing to 2 of the inputs IIRR.

 

I´m in local off mode w/ all of my keyboard controllers always, looking at the internal tone generators as slaves, so there´s no different handling between controllers and modules.

It´s also the easiest way to combine hardware and software MIDI.

Go w/ physical MIDI to and from the matrix-switcher to the hardware and assign software w/ the USB MIDI coming from the controllers and if available.

 

But a small rig is also easily controllable by a KURZ PC3 setup (or setups)if there are not more than 2 controller-keyboards and 2 - 4 "modules" in the rig.

Up to 2 modules daisy chained to each MIDI out of a PC3 works o.k. and a 2nd keyboard connected to PC3 MIDI In does too.

 

But the programming makes it uncomfortable compared to a MIDI data processing MIDI matrix switcher.

If you can connect every single keyboard and module to a dedicated MIDI I/O,- there´s no need to deal w/ MIDI channels anymore, all can be on channel ONE,- you only deal w/ MIDI channels if the rig becomes much more complex and you only deal w/ the MIDI channels inside the MIDI processor/matrix,- not in every keyboard or module.

Programming is much faster and connected/disconnected MIDI lines are remembered in the MIDI box which, if it is an advanced one, sends PRG and Bank Change commands, merges, splits, layers, transposes by MIDI I/O (and/ or MIDI channel).

 

For the newbees I´ve found this:

Advanced MIDI Applications

 

A.C.

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I´m in local off mode w/ all of my keyboard controllers always, looking at the internal tone generators as slaves, so there´s no different handling between controllers and modules.

 

Absolutely - the ability to completely disengage your keybeds from your sounds and freely assign any sound combination to any physical keys is so powerful that I couldn't really give it up in the end.

 

However, the downside is having to rely on patchbay controllers up to 20 years old or more, usually discontinued or made by now defunct manufacturers. It also brings the problem of what to do if you're flying out and not using your own rig. I'm worried about it sufficiently to be looking for modern alternatives, but about the only feasible one I can find might be the MOTU MIDI Timepiece AV, and even that's problematical. It would mean buying an old Mac capable of programming it - the Windows implementation leaves a lot to be desired - and even then it's not completely programmable in stand-alone mode.

Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. - W. C. Fields

 

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For the newbees I´ve found this:

(huge unnecessary link deleted)

 

Hey Al, want to do us a favour and use the URL tag? That huge link is a complete eyesore, and kills the width of the forum.

 

:thu:

 

What he said, I have to look at my neighbor's screen to read this thread... ;)

What we record in life, echoes in eternity.

 

MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg.

https://www.abandoned-film.com

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For the newbees I´ve found this:

(huge unnecessary link deleted)

 

Hey Al, want to do us a favour and use the URL tag? That huge link is a complete eyesore, and kills the width of the forum.

 

:thu:

 

What he said, I have to look at my neighbor's screen to read this thread... ;)

 

Sorry guys !

Wasn´t my intention.

I just only copied the link from top of my browser to my forum post and it looked like this,- don´t know why.

Using latest Firefox b.t.w. and doing it the same way as always.

 

:-(

 

A.C.

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For the newbees I´ve found this:

(huge unnecessary link deleted)

 

Hey Al, want to do us a favour and use the URL tag? That huge link is a complete eyesore, and kills the width of the forum.

 

:thu:

 

The long link refered to a online read of chapters of this book,- also MIDI matrix switchers.

Now I´m copying the link the same way, but is the link to buy that book.

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-MIDI-Applications-Helen-Casabona/dp/0882843664

 

So, that´s a URL tag isn´t it ?

If yes, it was the same before.

 

A.C.

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Now I´m copying the link the same way, but is the link to buy that book.

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-MIDI-Applications-Helen-Casabona/dp/0882843664

 

So, that´s a URL tag isn´t it ?

If yes, it was the same before.

 

A.C.

 

:facepalm:

 

No, I'm suggesting you use the forum's URL tag, rather than simply cutting'n'pasting the URL into the text of your message. Sure, the forum will make the link active when it sees the http:// , but it doesn't wrap gracefully to do so. Put the link inside the URL tag, and put whatever text you want the link to show to readers, such as:

 

Click here to view the Helen Casonabona book that Al Coda wants you to read.

 

 

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:facepalm:

 

No, I'm suggesting you use the forum's URL tag, rather than simply cutting'n'pasting the URL into the text of your message. Sure, the forum will make the link active when it sees the http:// , but it doesn't wrap gracefully to do so. Put the link inside the URL tag, and put whatever text you want the link to show to readers, such as:

 

Click here to view the Helen Casonabona book that Al Coda wants you to read.

 

 

So,- because of my age,- are you able to provide a link or recommend a book on using URL-tab in forums,- or something as simple like your apples % oranges in the VAX77 vs. Nord Stage 2 76 thread ?

 

:-D

 

B.t.w.,- I don´t WANT anyone reading anything, but for absolute MIDI newbies, it might be a idea.

 

A.C.

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are you able to provide a link or recommend a book on using URL-tab in forums,- or something as simple like your apples % oranges in the VAX77 vs. Nord Stage 2 76 thread ?

He used the

[ IMG ] --image URL here --- [ /IMG ]

function (without the extra spaces I added between the brackets)

 

I don't know where there is an index of these things. That one happens to be in the FAQ (actually, the answer there is different), but they're not all there, and that page isn't the easiest place to find information anyway (it's random topics in random order). What I've done when I've wanted to do something like embed a video or whatever is locate a message where it was done, and "quote" it to see the code that was used. For URLs, I've just pasted the way you did, I was just lucky that none of them were long. Since (as far as I can see) the info on how to do these things is not clearly posted anywhere, I think the idea is that you just do it any way you can manage, and if it's wrong, wait for Sven to yell at you. ;-)

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Perfect! So it sounds like my theory about daisy-chaining the 4-program-zoning capabilities of the two boards to be able to invoke a single preset that will bring up 5 programs (one on each device) should work!

 

See, this here's what I call an elegant solution :thu:. My post naively assumed that something like this was not available (:facepalm:) - and is basically a walkthrough of the broad categories of alternatives available.

 

As for Ashville's suggestion of the MIDI Breakout Box app, that's a bit complicated because you have two controlling keyboards, and that app is really designed as a 1-in device (a given preset can only route MIDI from a single MIDI channel). In a way, that may not matter, if you're not processing any input (leaving the various modules dedicated to their particular controllers just as they are now, and not looking for the program to manage any splits), then I guess you can leave the IN port empty and just add a 5-out Thru box to send the Program Changes out of the iPad to the 5 devices; though if you take that route, I think you'd also need some Merge boxes so that the modules can receive the Program Change command from the app and also the actual playing notes from the attached keyboard. This sounds okay to me in theory, at least. Note that it requires an iPad (it's iPad only... not iPhone/iPod). Also, any CoreMIDI interface should do, you don't need the pricey iConnectMIDI. The $29 Apple Camera Connection Kit and a standard USB->MIDI interface should do it.

I specified iConnectMidi since it's the only 2-in/2-out interface :). Not sure you'd need any additional thru/merge boxes - can't the XS rack, the CP-5 and the XK3 be programmed to ignore PC messages? If yes, then it's pretty simple - the 2 outs to the two rack modules. Oberheim sounds switched though PC changes. XS rack in multitimbral mode - just switch channel in the app for different sounds. Finally, daisy chain: XS rack thru->CP-5->XK3. Local sounds off on both keyboards, listening in on separate channels. Should work, no?

 

And thanks for pointing out that MidiBreakoutBox listens in on only 1 channel - bummer. So the OP can't use both keyboards together - here's a crude workaround: permanently transpose both keyboards, so that the note range is always different (needs sacrificing a few notes while playing both boards together). In the app, split and re-transpose to compensate. Effectively, it's like both keyboards are transmitting on separate channels.

 

Again, this is all merely for academic interest - your solution is clearly hands-down winner. Personally, I would never bother with option #2 - smartphone/tablet apps like MidiBreakoutBox are way behind the curve, compared to their PC/Mac counterparts. Too much hassle, not enough flexibility gained. Neat, elegant hardware solutions FTW!

This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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