JeffLearman Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The Wolf at Our Heels: an interesting article on classical temperaments, from Slate. I didn't know that well-tempered was not equal temperament. I used to play lots of pianos, searching for any I could find on and near campus at UMich. I remember occasinally finding some that were poorly tempered: they'd play great in keys like C but sound terrible in others. (I doubt they were intentionally tempered classicly, given the locations.) But man did they sound great playing tunes like Lennon's Imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Can't remember if this was posted on this forum or not - incredibly interesting. [video:youtube] Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The fact that tuning the scale with the correct math intervals makes a B sharp a bit higher that C freaks me out... I mean, how can it be?? Pretty interesting and brain-breaker stuff if you dig into it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLaw Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The fact that tuning the scale with the correct math intervals makes a B sharp a bit higher that C freaks me out... I mean, how can it be?? I know you're joking, but some folks don't get it that it's because 12*3/2 does not equal 7*2, (i.e. twelve "really perfect" (3/2 ratio) fifths does not give the same frequency result as seven "really perfect" (2/1 ratio) octaves). Larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 If you're interested in temperament you might like this book. It was a pretty good read: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KEF5H09SL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 The fact that tuning the scale with the correct math intervals makes a B sharp a bit higher that C freaks me out... I mean, how can it be?? I know you're joking, but some folks don't get it that it's because 12*3/2 does not equal 7*2, (i.e. twelve "really perfect" (3/2 ratio) fifths does not give the same frequency result as seven "really perfect" (2/1 ratio) octaves). I think you mean (3/2)^12 doesn't equal 2^7. But yeah, I mean ... um ... what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 Thanks for the pointer, MD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Thanks for bringing up the article, learjeff... this is a fascinating topic . This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Can't remember if this was posted on this forum or not - incredibly interesting. [video:youtube] Watched all 20 mins. Wow. I'm going to be depressed now even after I get my piano tuned. It's never really in tune. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Hey has anyone ever tried to implement a realtime smart tuning tracker in any keyboard? Imagine a world where software would analyze the tones you were playing, determine the immediate tonality, then tune the intervals to adapt. It could do it in the blink of an eye right when you strike a chord. Play a C chord and it plays a perfectly in tune C chord. Modulate to Ab and the intervals adjust accordingly. Of course there would be problems with this approach, in that you lose the color of each key. I'd argue that you lose that same color with Equal Temperament anyway. Another problem would be if you were playing modern music and tried to play 'outside'. Say you had a nice E in the left hand and decided to play a C triad on top. It would probably sound pretty nasty or freak the keyboard out. I'll stop my musings there as I run the risk of sounding all kooky and Theoesque, but watching these vids got me to wondering. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I guess it your "Smart keyboard" would sound strange but not awful, just strange. I guess something funny would happen to the harmonics of the notes, if you change from a perfect tuned (math tuned) C chord to a prefect tuned Ab, if you were using a familiar timbre like piano. There are many examples in the web of music played with just intonation or pythagorean tunings, and they don't sound bad, just sound a bit different (with some odd intervals, I must admit...). Have you ever tried to modify the tuning of your digital piano to play? Most Dp have the possibility to change the tuning from tempered to Kirnberger and others, it's really interesting to play Mozart in a tuning that Mozart himself would have found pleasant in his piano This is a good example of different tunings: [video:youtube] PS hey, I was joking the first time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 The very first thing my father did when he taught me tuning was to show me a perfect third. It really blew my mind. But tuning a piano is a great analogy for life; it ain't perfect. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLaw Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I think you mean (3/2)^12 doesn't equal 2^7. But yeah, I mean ... um ... what? Yep, that's what I mean! Thanks. The very first thing my father did when he taught me tuning was to show me a perfect third. It really blew my mind. But tuning a piano is a great analogy for life; it ain't perfect. Ain't that the truth. I tuned pianos in music school long enough to learn that piano tuning is half science, half magic, and half cramming 3 quarts of sh*t into a 2 quart pail. Larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Hey has anyone ever tried to implement a realtime smart tuning tracker in any keyboard? Hermode Tuning has been implemented in Access Virus synths (OS 6) and might be found in some Waldorf hardware synths (the last generation before the Blofeld): http://www.hermode.com/html/products-practice_en.html I have heard of a competing dynamic tuning technology but I forgot the name, and it was never implemented in a hardware synth like Hermode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I suppose in various instruments the actual frequencies coming out of it will depend on the chords being played and how loud. An automatic temperament selector would be a doable thing to program, BUT I'd hate it and find every wrong progression it makes first and then hope there's an off switch, because it can't possibly predict accurately how it is supposed to tune into a temperament at some point in a song or solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I suppose in various instruments the actual frequencies coming out of it will depend on the chords being played and how loud. An automatic temperament selector would be a doable thing to program, BUT I'd hate it and find every wrong progression it makes first and then hope there's an off switch, because it can't possibly predict accurately how it is supposed to tune into a temperament at some point in a song or solo. I can't believe it, but this is well said. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourniplus Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Lately I've been experimenting with altering the pitch when playing the accordion. By not pressing the keys completely, you can actually lower the pitch to the point that a third will become pure. What's good about it is that YOU get to decide which notes you adjust instead of a software doing it... (putting on my perloid flamesuit) "Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints." My homemade instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLaw Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Lately I've been experimenting with altering the pitch when playing the accordion. By not pressing the keys completely, you can actually lower the pitch to the point that a third will become pure. What's good about it is that YOU get to decide which notes you adjust instead of a software doing it... (putting on my perloid flamesuit) Wow. An accordion with polyphonic aftertouch (or would it be polyphonic pretouch?) Larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVG Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 The Hermode tuning system is a very workable one IMHO. I've spent a good amount of time looking into it, contacting the developers, and trying to get it to work with my existing system (no luck yet). One of the nice features which circumvents the need for an on/off switch (of which there is one) is the ability to turn a knob and adjust the amount of intonation adjustment, from 0 to 100%. Stephen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Wow, Hermode looks very interesting. The fact that at most it deviates by 11 cents means that even when it "guesses wrong", it shouldn't be wrong by much. (Then again, 11 cents is a lot of beats, for a high note!) Seems to me it would tend to guess wrong when the keyboard player is playing a complementary part such as an upper structure, especially with relatively dissonant harmony like some jazz and classical. It doesn't take into account the notes that others are playing. I wonder how Goodbye Pork Pie Hat would sound, and contrast when played as a solo version versus a comping part. Still, very cool, and the "History" page on their website is fascinating. I particularly like the graphs showing the differences between various tunings and equal temperment. I can't say I followed it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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