Moog slim phatty (or little phatty) question.

[zahush76]

Let me get this straight. I've searched the manual. Maybe i skipped or missed a page.

If i want to modulate something, wether with the lfo or the envelope, i have to use the mod wheel to trigger it.

It seems you can't create a patch that has an lfo working from the start. It's set to zero, and if you want to make it work - you have to apply the mod wheel.

If you want to create a sync sweep using the envelope to modulate ocs 2 - it will only work with the mod wheel up. Just an example.

 

Either i'm missing something, or this is seriously a limited piece of work. Having one lfo is limiting as it is. But triggtering it only with the mod wheel is even more.

 

I hope i'm wrong, and am just missing something.

[ksoper]

I don't own one of these but I scanned the manual of the Slim Phatty. Check out the Pot Mapping section in Advanced Presets. Seems like you'd be able to mod about anything from anything and save it as a patch.

 

I may be wrong.

 

K.

[zahush76]

Pot mapping sounds like something you do with cubase\abelton, involving automation.

But thanks, i'll check that.

[Praxisaxis]

From memory, you can do what you want with pot mapping. But I'm curious to know why you think it's a limitation. It's not hard to move the mod wheel, and it is a very traditional way to set up a synth. Don't forget you can automate the modulation from a DAW too.

 

The LP has presets, but after a good lot of use you find that you often prefer not to use them! It's very hands on. The mod wheel is at its core, so far as all that goes.

[zahush76]

But I'm curious to know why you think it's a limitation. It's not hard to move the mod wheel, and it is a very traditional way to set up a synth. Don't forget you can automate the modulation from a DAW too.

 

When you bring in DAW automation, than all bets are off anyway. You can make the slim phatty behave like a synth with 10 customizable lfo's.

 

But from a "live" point of view it's a limitation. Maybe i'm too spoiled after all this time with DSI synths.

How can you make a patch on the slim phatty, with a filter sweep modulated by the lfo, and make it work as soon as you press a key? You can't. You have to play a note, and than move the mod wheel.

If you want to create a sweeping sync sound you can only make a static sound that will come to live only after you move the mod wheel. I think that's limiting. I'm used to independent lfo's.

[Praxisaxis]

I guess it is what it is... and in fact it possesses a relatively simple design, with fewer features than many other commercial analogue synths. That's what it is supposed to be - a simple synth with a cracking sound.

 

Moreover you can probably do all sorts of interesting things with pot mapping, although I haven't yet really delved into that.

[zahush76]

Thing is, that although it's a bit limited - out of all the things, not being able to remember mod\lfo settings is strange. It's a synth that has the ability to remember presets, which means it can remember (by theory) all the values. If i look at vintage synths that had patch memory (prophets, junos + jupiters etc) - this was something they could handle. Not to mention modern analog.

I mean, all that is needed is for the synth to remember a mod amount that is larger than zero. A mod or an lfo that starts as soon as you press the key, without having to trigger it with a mod wheel.

 

Other than that, it of course sounds great. But that's beside the point.

[Praxisaxis]

You have a point; Still I'd urge you to look at the pot mapping - even though it is a work around I believe you can use this feature to do exactly what it is that you are wanting to do.

[zahush76]

Is pot mapping per patch or global?

 

[bloodsample]

You can't. You have to play a note, and than move the mod wheel.

 

Maybe I misunderstood your question, but the mod wheel just controls the depth of the modulation. And the mod wheel slides like a normal mod wheel (it stays in position and doesn't spring back like the pitch wheel). So really it's just a matter of sliding the mod wheel up and leaving it there, then all your modulations will be in full effect. You don't have to synchronize key presses with sliding the mod wheel or anything. It doesn't 'trigger' the LFO, just increases the depth of the modulation.

 

In other words the mod wheel just controls the "Amount" setting. The "Amount" setting just sets the maximum amount of modulation, and the mod wheel modulates the "Amount" from 0 to the setting set by "Amount".

 

Does that make any sense? Again, maybe I'm missing the question here.

 

Cheers.

[AnotherScott]

So really it's just a matter of sliding the mod wheel up and leaving it there, then all your modulations will be in full effect.

That's an interesting solution, though then if the mod wheel is always up, what do you do about presets where you don't want mod by default, but you want to be able to introduce it in performance? Still, that may not be an issue for the OP, so that could still be a perfectly workable approach.

 

Also, though, if it's a slim phatty, then you're using an external MIDI controller of some sort, so maybe that opens up some more possibilities for control... perhaps the MIDI controller could have its own presets that call up the appropriate Phatty preset and also send a CC value that will alter the mod amount?

 

There may be some relevant useful information here:

http://www.moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11505&p=84159

 

 

[bloodsample]

... though then if the mod wheel is always up, what do you do about presets where you don't want mod by default, but you want to be able to introduce it in performance? ...

 

In that case you set the "Amount" setting to the desired level and play with that live. The mod wheel and amount pretty much control the same thing if you set the other to its maximum value. For example if the the mod wheel is all the way up the the "Amount" knob is fully responsible for setting the mod depth from 0 to 100. Similarly if the "Amount" knob is maxed out the mod wheel will set the mod depth from 0 to 100. The "Amount" pretty much sets the range that the mod wheel has effect on the modulation depth. So it's up to you to play with both to find the best configuration you want. The main difference is that the "Amount" setting can be saved to the preset whereas the mod wheel's physical position obviously can't.

 

Hope that helps.

[AnotherScott]

... though then if the mod wheel is always up, what do you do about presets where you don't want mod by default, but you want to be able to introduce it in performance? ...

 

In that case you set the "Amount" setting to the desired level and play with that live. The mod wheel and amount pretty much control the same thing if you set the other to its maximum value. For example if the the mod wheel is all the way up the the "Amount" knob is fully responsible for setting the mod depth from 0 to 100. Similarly if the "Amount" knob is maxed out the mod wheel will set the mod depth from 0 to 100. The "Amount" pretty much sets the range that the mod wheel has effect on the modulation depth. So it's up to you to play with both to find the best configuration you want. The main difference is that the "Amount" setting can be saved to the preset whereas the mod wheel's physical position obviously can't.

It took me a minute, but yes, if you program the patch so that the stored Amount is zero, then switching to the patch will give you the sound with no mod even if the wheel is up full, but then you could use the Amount knob itself live to introduce mod as desired after the fact. It's a little awkward because, despite the rotary indicators, the knobs on the Phatty are not endless (that was my surprise/disappointment with it when I first got my hands on one), so if it happens to be up at maximum, you'd need to back it off to zero before being able to use it in this manner, but it might be a workaround.

[zahush76]

While this might work, you can't deny this is a very bad example of synth design. If you can set the maximum amount of modulation, why can't we set the minimum as well? Why does it have to be always on zero by default? I don't know of any other modern analog synth (with preset memory) who can't.

If i want to have a PWM lead, than if the mod wheel is down - the sound will be a static pulse. The pwm will require me to move the mod wheel first - or resort to the "backwards" solution that was offered here.

If the mod amoumt can be programmed - than maybe moog can solve this via OS modification of some sort.

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

While this might work, you can't deny this is a very bad example of synth design.

We've been talking pretty much academically about different possible ways to do this, but having now taken a longer look at the phatty manual, it looks like there are multiple solutions.

 

First, as has been suggested, it looks like you can use pot mapping to do what you want. It lets you invoke any CC function as part of any preset. Since mod wheel is CC1, just set the Pot Mapping parameter to "MOD--> CC1" (routed to Internal) and I think that does it... it looks to me like that would let you store a modulation level that would kick in as soon as you selected the preset. (To answer your earlier question about pot mapping, it is per patch, not global.)

 

But better than that, according to the manual, "Pressing and holding the AMOUNT switch enables the MODULATION control knob to act as a MOD WHEEL control." Assuming that that setting is also stored as part of the preset, that's even simpler... you get to it with a single button press instead of having to go through a menu.

 

The way it sounds like it would work is, first you would set the maximum amount desired using the Modulation Amount parameter as usual. Then do the press-and-hold procedure to change the pot to a Mod Wheel control, and rotate it until it is at the position you want (i.e. full up). If you store the patch while in that state, I would think that you will hear the modulation at full on (or whatever amount you selected) when you switch back to that patch.

 

Besides being simpler to toggle in and out of this function, another advantage over the pot mapping approach is that Moog uses MSB and LSB to increase the resolution of its Mod Wheel function for finer control, so this "dedicated" answer that the Phatty seems to be providing for Mod Wheel setting in particular should be smoother than using the "generic" solution of being able to assign any CC number to a pot. Plus it would leave that pot mapping parameter unused, so you could still use the knob for some additional purpose.

 

That said, don't be put off by pot mapping and other parameters located in the "Advanced Preset menus" section... despite the scary implications of the word "advanced," it looks like they are very easy to get to, and it looks like there are some very useful functions there.

 

 

[zahush76]

First, as has been suggested, it looks like you can use pot mapping to do what you want. It lets you invoke any CC function as part of any preset. Since mod wheel is CC1, just set the Pot Mapping parameter to "MOD--> CC1" (routed to Internal) and I think that does it

 

Thanks. Will give it a try - though it seems like something that would maybe work on a little phatty and not so sure about the slim phatty. The LP has a mod wheel of its own. The slim phatty relies on external midi controller.

 

But better than that, according to the manual, "Pressing and holding the AMOUNT switch enables the MODULATION control knob to act as a MOD WHEEL control." Assuming that that setting is also stored as part of the preset, that's even simpler... you get to it with a single button press instead of having to go through a menu.

 

 

Tried this and it doesn't work. All it does is make the pot behave like a mod wheel. It doesn't remember the value.

[AnotherScott]

First, as has been suggested, it looks like you can use pot mapping to do what you want. It lets you invoke any CC function as part of any preset. Since mod wheel is CC1, just set the Pot Mapping parameter to "MOD--> CC1" (routed to Internal) and I think that does it

 

Thanks. Will give it a try - though it seems like something that would maybe work on a little phatty and not so sure about the slim phatty. The LP has a mod wheel of its own. The slim phatty relies on external midi controller.

It is a Slim Phatty function. The pot mapping allows the four main pots (knobs) to send any MIDI CC command (in addition to their usual functions). "MOD --> CC1" should allow the Modulation knob to be used to create and store a CC1 (mod wheel) position setting, to be recalled whenever the patch is invoked. At least that's how I read it. ;-)

 

The LP has a mod wheel of its own. The slim phatty relies on external midi controller.

As you saw, there is a way to turn the mod knob of a SP into a mod wheel (referenced in the next paragraph). But the ability to store/recall CC values as part of the preset really shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not the unit itself has a particular controller.

 

Tried this and it doesn't work. All it does is make the pot behave like a mod wheel. It doesn't remember the value.

That's a pity. That would have been a sensible thing for them to do, and a simple and elegant way to address your issue. Hopefully mapping the pot will do it.