Amy Winehouse - Found Dead

[Cygnus64]

...or not quick enough to judge hard enough to save someone.

 

 

 

 

A slippery slope, unfortunately. Ultimately there is free will in life. Addiction is a Catch-22: the person can't stop, and yet the person can stop. It's all about hitting rock bottom. Amy's rock bottom went a step too far. In the end, it was her choice. As hard as it is to quit an addiction, it's still a choice, regardless of genetics or disease. The addict and only the addict can stop the addict.

 

...or not quick enough to judge hard enough to save someone.

[HammondDave]

 

 

 

I think this shows a lack of understanding regarding addiction. I never knew Ms. Winehouse but I would bet my last dollar that if she could have kicked her drug habit she would have.

 

 

 

 

or not... The reason people do drugs is for escape, pleasure, etc... a junkie is a junkie, period. They love doing drugs.

 

I have read many studies on drug addiction and recovery, and have known many drug addicts over my life. Some very close to me. The only time a junkie is able to kick the habit is when they sincerely want to stop doing drugs. Then they enter proper rehab clinics (not the celebrity boutique clinics that Amy and other celebrities have checked in and out of). Anyone who truly wants to stop can kick the habit. Millions have.

 

Thinking otherwise in somewhat naive, and just makes excuses for junkies...

[HammondDave]

I watched this today after I heard the news. In hindsight, it not only seems prophetic but it's such a cry for help. How could the band/mgmt/handlers even allow her to walk on stage in this condition? Pathetic and tragic.

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttJg8901qAU

 

This is what bothers me the most about this story. If you watch the other band members they are laughing, smiling, thinking this is funny!

 

A lot of blame goes to her management. She should never have been allowed to go on stage that night. She could have fallen off the stage and killed herself... or someone else!

 

Her management should have forced her to enter a proper rehab clinic that would insulate her from drugs and the outside world for at least 6 months to a year. But I guess that they would lose too much money.

 

When do people step in to protect their friends and family?

[Cygnus64]

When do people step in to protect their friends and family?

That's a tough call, but as a pro musician I wouldn't step on the stage with her like that. There's a big difference between being really stoned on stage compared with being unable to perform. Maybe her band didn't know the extent, which is certainly possible. When I do backing gigs the "artiste" is usually in a dressing room until showtime and I don't see them until I'm on stage. Maybe the band didnt see her until the gig.

[HammondDave]

When do people step in to protect their friends and family?

That's a tough call, but as a pro musician I wouldn't step on the stage with her like that. There's a big difference between being really stoned on stage compared with being unable to perform. Maybe her band didn't know the extent, which is certainly possible. When I do backing gigs the "artiste" is usually in a dressing room until showtime and I don't see them until I'm on stage. Maybe the band didnt see her until the gig.

 

I have seen several clips from that concert... They knew... and I doubt that this was the first time this happened.

 

This is how her concert started that night...

 

[video:youtube]http://hiphopwired.com/2011/06/19/amy-winehouse-falls-over-forget-words-and-mumbles-her-first-performance-out-of-rehab-video-30097/

 

Again, I don't blame the musicians as much as I blame management for allowing her to go on. It was only after world-wide criticism after that performance that they decided that it was in THEIR best interest to cancel her tour so she could "Go home and rest".

 

Yes, I believe in personal responsibility... but people do have to look out for each other. After reading Jon Ronson's excellent book "The Psychopath Test", it is obvious that uncaring people with no empathy for others are everywhere, and usually in positions of power. Maybe even in Amy's management...

[mikecorbett]

Every death like Amy Winehouse's is a tragedy. This talented woman should not be dead at 27. Alcoholism and drug addiction are diseases - fatal diseases. It killed her. This kills most people, whether you agree with the theory and medical research or not. She did not die of a moral flaw or failure of willpower. Read the first 164 pages of the big book and see what you find there.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8657002/The-27-club-the-musicians-who-played-fast-and-died-young.html

 

Well Said! Some of the strongest willed, most decent people suffer from addiction, some recover, some do not.

 

I am 11 years sober and I can tell you it was not my will power that gave me the chance to escape. I am strong willed but I could never kick the bottle. Non addicts find it incomprehensible when we addicts partake in the kind of excesses that we do: we addicts find it unfathomable when you non addicts just ¨have a couple of beers and call it a night.¨

 

Addiction has little or nothing to do with willpower, morals or decisions for many; they just simply have it like a disease.

 

I hope that Amy Winehouses death can be a magical inspiration that helps some people struggling with addictions to stop trying to fight them on their own, and look to something more powerful than themselves for help. As countless AA´s will tell you, you must first surrender to win the battle. Amys battle is over now, may she rest in peace.

[Tonysounds]

People who never suffered from that level of compulsion and madness in their addictions are too quick to judge.

Actually, they had good judgment to not have such addictions.

 

Spoken like an expert on the subject.

[mikecorbett]

 

 

 

I think this shows a lack of understanding regarding addiction. I never knew Ms. Winehouse but I would bet my last dollar that if she could have kicked her drug habit she would have.

 

 

 

....Anyone who truly wants to stop can kick the habit. Millions have.

 

Thinking otherwise in somewhat naive, and just makes excuses for junkies...

 

This may be true Hammonddave, but you come of harsh and angry at the addicts themselves. Some make it , many dont. Your lack of compassion and judgmental attitude doesnt make the world a better place, but maybe your not trying to do that.

[Tonysounds]

Let me state it more directly:

 

I don't feel sorry for people who kill themselves...

 

Fuck keeping it classy; we're keeping it ASSy. I gotta say it: I'm seeing some of the dumbest shit I've seen in a long time on this forum, and I'm completely surprised that musicians/artists, who I thought as a species had a higher degree of empathy than most other creatures, really are just as capable of ignorant hubris and incapable of sympathy as any other group I've encountered.

 

There but for the grace of your god go you. (I know I'm lucky.)

[mikecorbett]

People who never suffered from that level of compulsion and madness in their addictions are too quick to judge.

Actually, they had good judgment to not have such addictions.

 

Spoken like an expert on the subject.

 

I hope your being sarcastic Tony... The lack of understanding is getting upsetting.

 

Let me try some sarcasm. I think Ill have the good judgement not to have Parkinson's disease. Those people all merely suffer from being weak willed, spineless losers.... crazy talk.

 

People ...addiction is a disease...if you don't believe me ask a doctor. You know, white coat, went to med school for years, really smart, knows the difference between a disease and lack of willpower.

 

I

[mikecorbett]

Let me state it more directly:

 

I don't feel sorry for people who kill themselves...

 

Fuck keeping it classy; we're keeping it ASSy. I gotta say it: I'm seeing some of the dumbest shit I've seen in a long time on this forum, and I'm completely surprised that musicians/artists, who I thought as a species had a higher degree of empathy than most other creatures, really are just as capable of ignorant hubris and incapable of sympathy as any other group I've encountered.

 

There but for the grace of your god go you. (I know I'm lucky.)

 

 

Thank God Tony, I wasnt sure if you were one of THEM!!

[HammondDave]

 

 

 

I think this shows a lack of understanding regarding addiction. I never knew Ms. Winehouse but I would bet my last dollar that if she could have kicked her drug habit she would have.

 

 

 

....Anyone who truly wants to stop can kick the habit. Millions have.

 

Thinking otherwise in somewhat naive, and just makes excuses for junkies...

 

This may be true Hammonddave, but you come of harsh and angry at the addicts themselves. Some make it , many dont. Your lack of compassion and judgmental attitude doesnt make the world a better place, but maybe your not trying to do that.

 

 

 

You know nothing of me or my motives.

 

Like I said I have studied and have personal experience in this. Talk to any recovering addict (some on this list) and they will tell you that it is indeed a choice to go sober. These people I support and feel empathy for.

 

Let's see how much empathy you have for the addict when the cop comes knocking on your door in the middle of the night to inform you that some drunk or drug addict just ran down and killed your kid.

 

For some reason some musicians on this list think that drugs and alcohol are ok, and may be part of the performance experience... maybe because they themselves use them and think that it improves their performance. I really don't care who uses drugs, as long as they don't hurt other people.

 

 

[Tonysounds]

Having lost a few people very close to me from suicide, and a couple to addiction, I find the cavalier attitudes very hard to swallow, and obviously, it makes me very angry. Whether suicide is the case here or not remains to be seen, but the same sense of powerlessness I'm sure exists for her family as it does for the families of addicts and suicides in all walks of life. The depths of despair that hardcore addicts and suicides exist in deserve our sympathy if not our empathy, if for no other reason than our own dignity demands it. If the human in you can't find it, then let the artist in you find it.

 

 

R.I.P. Ms. Winehouse.

[HammondDave]

Having lost a few people very close to me from suicide, and a couple to addiction, I find the cavalier attitudes very hard to swallow, and obviously, it makes me very angry. Whether suicide is the case here or not remains to be seen, but the same sense of powerlessness I'm sure exists for her family as it does for the families of addicts and suicides in all walks of life. The depths of despair that hardcore addicts and suicides exist in deserve our sympathy if not our empathy, if for no other reason than our own dignity demands it. If the human in you can't find it, then let the artist in you find it.

 

 

R.I.P. Ms. Winehouse.

 

 

My last word on this subject...

 

If you find my words lacking in empathy, then you misunderstand my message. My empathy lies with the people who are affected by drug and alcohol abuse. Some addicts struggle... and some don't care. The ones that are battling the drugs and alcohol are the ones I truly care about.

 

Working in the music business for the past 40 years I too have seen a lot of friends die (and kill others) due to drug and alcohol abuse. Early in my career I also took some of these drugs while performing. It did not make me a better musician, or artist. In fact, it made me play like crap. I chose not to continue.

 

I also witnessed many who believed that it helped them. They eventually became addicts. Some realized it and got off of them... some continued and eventually got sick and passed away.

 

You cannot help but feel for the people who struggle with these addictions. But there is a time where you must face reality and cut bait with destructive people. Otherwise you only enable them to continue. Blaming fate and other external forces on drug addiction only enables the drug addict. "Oh, he can't help it... He's sick!" He may be sick, but he can help it if he wants to.

 

I was not Miss. Winehouse's doctor, so I have no idea what she suffered from. But I do know this. If she truly wanted to stop, she could have entered a real rehab clinic and shut herself off from society for a year. No drugs, no TV, no "friends", etc.

 

Don't be angry, Tony. We all care about this... because it brings back horrible memories of what we have gone through. Wasted lives, talent, etc...

 

Its a shame that she passed away. I was pushing for her to finally do the right thing. But like many before her, she chose a different path.

[Cygnus64]

Hammond Dave,

 

you have zero understanding of addiction, really. That's not an insult, I assure you. You can only see YOU, which happens so often. Everything is based on YOU. There are things I can do that you'll never be able to do no matter what, and vice-versa. You're assuming that since you can do something, everyone can. It doesn't work like that.

 

 

 

Early in my career I also took some of these drugs while performing. It did not make me a better musician, or artist. In fact, it made me play like crap. I chose not to continue.

 

This is the perfect example. You're thinking that everyone is like you. They aren't. Everything is from your POV, not someone elses. By that rationale, you should be have no defects in your life. You should literally be able to beat LeBron at basketball, make better music than Beethoven, be richer than Buffett, on and on.

 

 

 

But I do know this. If she truly wanted to stop, she could have entered a real rehab clinic and shut herself off from society for a year. No drugs, no TV, no "friends", etc.

 

As someone with uber-addiction experience, this is just plain Urban Legend land. It's like you think "Rehab" is like going to the dry cleaners or something. "Rehab" is not "Bewitched", it rarely works. Rarely. Go to an AA/NA/anythingA and you'll learn this quickly. People have been to "rehab" ten times.

 

I knew Amy Winehouse was going to die, every addict knew. She had no chance. It's like Vampire movies, where some vampires arent "full" vampires because they havent made their first kill. She was full vampire, no turning back. Watch her on that video, that's End stage addiction. Doesn't matter if it was OD or suicide, it's the same in her case. She's possessed. Amy Winehouse checked out a few years back, she was already dead in that video.

 

We're all different. Just because you can do something doesn't mean I can do it. You (and others without addictions) do not have a point of reference, therefore you can only base things on yourself. Just because you can quit something easily, don't assume that others can, no matter how much they want to. The lady in that video is about as pained and tormented looking as a person can be. I guarantee you this: she knew she was going to do, and she still couldnt stop. That's something you simply won't be able to understand. I do.

 

 

 

 

[harmonizer]

My dad has been sober since 1981. Was he strong, lucky or both? Here's the story:

 

As my mom was planning his intervention with help from one of the local rehab facilities (I was told it was also where John Phillips went), she was told that the leading success factor in getting the addict to enter rehab was whether or not the addict's boss was present at the intervention. My dad's boss at the time was a good enough human being to answer my mom's plea to attend my dad's intervention. My dad's last protest at that intervention about why he could not enter rehab immediately was that he had an important business trip that was supposed to start in 2 days. His boss said "there is no business trip" (meaning, "you're probably fired if don't enter rehab"). So my dad entered rehab on the spot, largely because his boss was there to help him.

 

Like many entertainers, Amy Winehouse did not really have a boss. There is a never ending supply of people who will offer to be the assistants or managers for any celebrity, and the addict can choose to surround themselves with assistants or managers who will not imperil the supply of their preferred chemicals.

 

So, was my dad strong, lucky, or both? I think black-and-white characterizations don't really do the subject justice.

[HammondDave]

All good points... Everyone is different and under different pressures, etc.

 

Harmonizer... Your story makes a lot of sense. And thank God your dad had a great boss who cared. He could have just fired your dad, but he took responsibility as a human being...

 

And Cygnus... thank God you found sobriety in your own way. Any success story is a great story.

 

I guess time will tell what exactly happened to Amy.

[LX88]

First of all, let me say how much I resent the reminder to "keep it classy". I have been busted for such ( perceived ) infractions before and as far as I am concerned the real classlessness is to appoint yourself as the morality monitor of this forum.

 

As was the case with Michael Jackson , there were people who had a financial interest in making sure that Amy had a consistent drug supply. When you send a known drug addict on a major European tour,supplying the addict with drugs is a major part of the equation. There had to be important people behind the scenes to enable Amy's addiction. And these people knew the degree of the problem.

 

Amy had a lot going for her but as is often the case, she had just as much going against her. The absolute worst thing that can happen to an addict is to have limitless financial resources.

Amy was set for life after having one blockbuster hit record. Having that kind of money at your disposal can greatly assist the severity of the problem.

 

William Burroughs once described this type of junkie as having an "oil burner" habit. It is a level of addiction that is commonly found in people with unlimited resources and when it gets to that point it can be very difficult to treat or even deal with rationally.

 

My heart goes out to Amy's family, who were very involved and concerned about her.Can you imagine what it is like to have a child that you adore and then see them develop as a young adult into the trainwreck that accompanies major drug addiction? In this case it reminds me of an oil spill that was out of control.

 

What Hammond Dave is saying about millions of cured addicts may be true and as always, I respect his right to express his views. And I ABSOLUTELY agree that the addicts themselves have to want to stop that has to be priority number one in their lives.

 

But when addiction strikes very major stars like Elvis, like Michael and now Amy it is an out of control spiral that is GREATLY assisted by the greed of others behind the scenes.

 

Rarely does the average person receive as much "help" as those who have an escalated degree of access to drugs due to their notoriety. There are always those who stand to benefit from these situations and make it that much more tempting for the addict to continue the spiral of self destruction.

 

 

[ProfD]

It is impossible to feel another person's pain without walking in 'their' shoes. Deep rooted problems affect anybody regardless of social status, talent, fame, fortune, etc.

 

Amy's family and 'real' friends could not save her. She could not save herself. Whatever troubled her was more than she could handle as evidenced by the constant attention it received in a media driven world.

 

However, in 27 years, she managed to showcase her talent and leave behind body of work that is her music. Individuals of greater talent will not achieve such an accomplishment with more time and fewer personal issues.

 

I hope that Amy's soul will find the peace that eluded her in life. RIP Ms. Winehouse.

[frogmonkey]

What a sad, sad story. RIP.

 

I guess it's a cautionary tale. In my own life, gigging and touring, I see that it would be very easy to fall into addiction and excess. There's a LOT of drinking and partying going on all around me, and being on tour can be uncomfortable and sometimes downright unpleasant. It's so easy to have another beer (or six) to take the edge off.

 

Yeah, I get addicted to just about everything, easily. That's one reason I won't try any new (to me) drugs. Luckily none of my addictions are any where near as extreme and advanced as Amy's seem to have been. But I take this story as a call to increased vigilance and reflection.

[richwhite9]

Society has struggled with this openly for the last 40 years.

 

There's several types of users and not all can be treated the same.

 

There's the tough love, don't enable, and let them hit bottom school of thought toward hardened addicts. It's only when an addict despairs and loses all hope that they can reform and take part in their recovery. Sometimes the tough love thing does work. The operative word is sometimes.

 

There's the binge drinker/addict who falls into habitual use. The habitual use is easier to control and is a different symptom than the binge. These are often classified as functional addicts/users who still live within society.

 

There's the young and dumb user who is more a cultural addict or drinker and has the easiest path to recovery of all with a good support system.

 

Then there's the older pattern abusers with no support system and too old to get a decent job or return to college (50+). A very tough population given their perceived options in life.

 

And so on. Society and Science are still learning as are practitioners. Those who are open to learning anyway.

 

There are bad practitioners too. They've got the whole military triage one-size-fits all mentality that can be just as devastating to some recovering abusers. These include practitioner control freaks and insurance sucklings and academic paper research types who have other interests and agendas. Caveat Emptor when it comes to treatment services and the pharmacopia crowd.

 

 

 

[LX88]

One of the problems with Amy MIGHT have been that she almost never could have hit bottom financially, though she appeared to have hit it in her inability to deliver anything close to a credible performance in her last public appearance.

 

I can imagine that her own guilt about the recent failed tour triggered yet another round of spiraling.

 

Does anyone remember hearing Whitney Houston's comments about not using crack ( Crack is Whack) , because she made too much money to use such a lowly street drug ? The quality of the drugs some of these people have access to can be very high. It makes it that much harder to stop.

[clpete]

Very Sad.

 

This video gets me, especially now.

 

[Bridog6996]

Dark as it if to say, her drug and alcohol problems probably fueled her success even further. Lord knows the media loves a train wreck. That's not to take away from her talent, but I think it's unfortunately true to a certain extent that what killed her is also what helped make her famous.

[SK]

I haven't posted at KC in a while (real life has gotten intense recently), but this news made me feel a need to say something

 

It's extremely sad news since it seemed preventable. I was actually glad Amy's Belgrade concert documented her addiction, thinking it would send a clear signal to everyone around her to keep her safe. Everyone has weaknesses, and Amy paid the ultimate price for hers. At only 27, she wasn't mature enough to take control of her life amid the pressures of fame and fortune.

 

About addicts: I've known a few and I have my 'well formed opinions', but the girl has hardly been gone 24 hrs., and her good contributions (not her personal demons) should be respected.

 

I don't have any of her CD's, but from what little I've heard, her voice was fascinatingly unique, broadly dynamic and unpredictable. I think she qualified as a true song stylist with her own raw, special spark. It wasn't as developed yet at her young age, but that spark is evident in special musicians (like Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Miles Davis, Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix, Bill Evans, and more relevantly, Billie Holiday.) It's the artist's DNA - you only need to hear a few notes to know who it is. (Most on that list also had addictions, but I don't like to mix one's flaws/personal demons with a person's art/life's work.) Similar to jazz players, Amy's songs weren't as memorable for me as what her singing style brought to a song. Like improvisation, it was about the trip, not the destination, and the potential for where things could have gone.

 

So RIP, Amy. Your special voice and Dickensian name will be missed.

 

(If/when my circumstances allow, I hope to be back to post again. Until then - my best to everybody here.)

 

[Adan]

Yes, I think the proper thing to do is to allow an appropriate period of time to celebrate the good things that someone did while alive. Or, if you can't do that, then respectfully say nothing. The golden rule does not cease to apply after death. There is plenty of time later to teach children well. Ever since AW became popular, people have been saying, "see, this is why drugs are bad." Give it a rest, if only for a couple days.

[Jon May]

Another reminder of her early talent.

 

[video:youtube]

[Aidan]

It's sad that she's gone but sadder still that we are once more seeing Diana-like mass hysteria, as many whom I suspect never so much as bought one of her records rush down to Camden. Among the "tributes" laid outside the flat are, apparently several packets of cigarettes and bottles of vodka, wine and beer. This picture in particular left me deeply depressed:

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/25/article-2018385-0D25BBC500000578-982_634x447.jpg

 

 

 

[allan_evett]

This was sad news to have received. I feel for her family, and close friends.

 

When I first listened to Amy Winehouse, it was readily apparent that I was hearing a depth of talent and vocal delivery that was gutsy.... intense.... soulful. It made me feel nostalgic, thinking back to some of the vocal performances I grew up hearing during the late 60's / early 70's.

 

As for the rest of the discussion that has taken place, I feel a degree of mental exhaustion when I think about any sort of analysis/contribution. That's not based on the discussion itself, as I certainly appreciate some of the empathic insights offered, but instead has everything to do with the situation still feeling a bit too close to home. Last August 20th a dear friend of mine drank herself to death, and her absence still echos a bit loudly for a small circle of us who were touched by what she gave to us.

 

RIP, Ms. Winehouse.

[jimkost2002]

Cygnus and Tony, well said brothers!

+ infinty

 

Dont judge until you walk a mile in another's shoes.

 

RIP Amy Winehouse