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JBL Eon 515XT First Impressions: IT'S NOT LOUD ENOUGH!!!


Nu2Keys

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Why are you using an inline volume pedal instead of a control pedal to control expression?

 

You are not getting the authentic hammond tonal response to volume change.

 

Well, for one thing I already had the volume pedal so it was easy to just hook it up and go. Also I use it to control the volume for piano sounds, too. For some gigs, usually shorter gigs, I don't use the pedal at all, just the on board volumes.

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My conclusion is that as built the JBL Eon 515 XT is not the correct piece of equipment and does not have enough volume for my needs. Now I have to decide whether to live with my purchase and buy a mixer to accomplish my original intentions, or sent it back.

 

I know I said I was out, but I do want to try to help you here.

 

To be clear, if you choose to return the Eon, don't bother considering any other powered P.A. speaker, because they'll all behave in a similar fashion. Go get yourself a Roland KC series amp, and be done with it. :snax:

 

Thanks, I appreciate that. And I agree! I had actually tried an EV powered speaker at a gig last year and it wasn't even CLOSE to being loud enough. Well, it actually worked at THAT gig because it was a VERY low key/volume gig but I realized that it wouldn't work for most of our gigs because of the two guitar players we have and the volume that we play. And at most of our gigs the amps are not miked. However, it was only 200 watts, so when I heard about the Eon 515XT I assumed that with three inputs and 625 watts it would be plenty. I guess I need to stop thinking with a guitar player/guitar amp wattage mindset.

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Sven is right, with the exception of an Eon 15 G2. Ebay. Loud without a mixer.

 

Or, if you really want revenge on the guitarists, TWO eons :evil:

http://cgi.ebay.com/jbl-eon-g2-15inch-pair-/200558229470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb233b7de

 

How is the G2 made differently than the 515XT that it appears to be a superior product? And why?

 

I have no doubt that the new Eons sound better and put out more volume than the G2's... once you dial them in right. The G2's just happen to accept a lower input signal. Remember, these are designed to be PA speakers or PA monitors, and their use as keyboard amps is incidental.

 

Again, this is a well-documented issue; someone recently bumped the long thread about the 3rd generation Eons, presumably apropos to this thread.

 

 

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Sven is right, with the exception of an Eon 15 G2. Ebay. Loud without a mixer.

 

Or, if you really want revenge on the guitarists, TWO eons :evil:

http://cgi.ebay.com/jbl-eon-g2-15inch-pair-/200558229470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb233b7de

 

How is the G2 made differently than the 515XT that it appears to be a superior product? And why?

 

I have no doubt that the new Eons sound better and put out more volume than the G2's... once you dial them in right. The G2's just happen to accept a lower input signal. Remember, these are designed to be PA speakers or PA monitors, and their use as keyboard amps is incidental.

 

Again, this is a well-documented issue; someone recently bumped the long thread about the 3rd generation Eons, presumably apropos to this thread.

 

 

What do you mean when you say "dial them in right"?

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Dial them in right = get the input signal hot enough to where you're taking advantage of the overhead on both sides (input and speaker amp).

 

You kinda create a bigger challenge with the external volume pedal here as well, as the output of the keyboard is known to be low out of the gate, and if you're further suppressing it, you're creating an extremely low voltage situation. You're not experiencing this using a guitar amp because it has a built-in preamplifier and is designed to take very, very low-output signals.

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However, it was only 200 watts, so when I heard about the Eon 515XT I assumed that with three inputs and 625 watts it would be plenty. I guess I need to stop thinking with a guitar player/guitar amp wattage mindset.

 

Mr. Nu2Keys - remember, it's not the rating of the power amp that is of concern here, it's the sensitivity of the input that's causing the difficulty.

 

You need a mixer. They're handy. Most small mixers have microphone inputs and EQ controls. Those features add a great deal of versatility.

 

I recommend that you look into a small mixer and one or two full-range, good-sounding powered speakers.

 

KLONK for Sweetwater Sound's mixer page.

 

I bought a JBL EON 15-PAK (for PA and keyboards) quite awhile ago. It's still going strong and sounds good. In fact, I wish I had bought two. I also bought a speaker stand to use for situations that require a small PA.

 

JBL, QSC, EV and others make great powered speakers. I would take a couple of those and a small mixer over any keyboard amp that I have heard to date. The flexibility of placement and the quality of sound trumps any cost difference as far as I'm concerned. Plus, you can start with one speaker and get a second one later; or just stick with one.

 

Keep asking questions here, Mr. Nu2Keys. It's a lot cheaper than spending money on gear that doesn't meet your needs.

 

Good luck,

 

Tom

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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In a nutshell, Griff said it.

 

I would definitely lose the volume pedal- even without the gain issue. You're missing a huge part of the organ experience that way (increased distortion when the pedal is floored), and on other patches you should use your fingers for dynamics. :)

 

Really a mixer is the best solution, despite the obvious drawback of extra schleppage. I'm a little puzzled by your experience with the Behringer... are you sure you had the EQ set right? I used a Behringer Eurorack ub1202 for years before switching to a Mackie. There was an improvement, but it wasn't that dramatic.

 

Also by "dialing in" I mean experimenting with the levels. For example with the mic/line trick, it might be so sensitive as to require a delicate balance of turning the keyboard itself down so as not to get TOO hot a signal. But yeah, maybe that's too fussy.

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The comment made about the volume control is on the mark. An in-line pedal is nothing but a variable resister (potentiometer) that cuts the signal down. Even at wide open, there is some resistance, cutting back an already weak signal.

 

Go with a control pedal. That way you get the full output potential, along with better control. If you're playing piano, just put the pedal full on.

 

I had some concerns the first time I played my new Yamaha MM8 directly through my QSC K10. Wasn't sure it would be loud enough. But, with some adjusting, using the Mic setting for the input, I was able to compete with a very loud guitar player. In fact, I was a bit loud.

 

Normally I run through a mixer, and that helps out. You may not have liked the sound because of the quality of the mixer, and the way it colored the sound. Try it with something with better quality, and you may find you love the combination.

 

Basically, don't give up yet. Keep trying different gain structures, and you may be very pleasantly surprised.

 

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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Well, I guess the bottom line for me is that I'm typically NOT a send stuff back kind of person, so I will probably keep the Eon and make it work. The good thing is that I have several working options depending on the situation. I can use Input 3 with the Mic/Line switch to mic, come out of the headphone out, or use a mixer. Or just a regular input for low volume gigs. Not bad I guess.

 

I have a friend who wants to sell his Peavey PV6 mixer. Are those any good?

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I have a friend who wants to sell his Peavey PV6 mixer. Are those any good?

 

While it wouldn't be my first choice if I were buying a new one, they are just fine (certainly way better than that Beh@!#@*er one you tried), and that particular model should suit your needs just fine!

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I doubt the Behringer mixer is at fault here. The newer Xenyx ones (which I believe this number is) are pretty clean and uncolored. You are doing so many different things and trying to compare your sound when you are in different rooms with the Eon, guitar amps, and drums all in different locations. There's a heck of a lot of other variables that are going to affect your sound way more than a Behringer mixer will.

 

So anyway - here's who we are (most of us anyway): We're mostly a bunch of older guys who play at reasonable levels onstage with everything going through the mains. We prize fidelity over all else in our keyboard setup.

 

Here's who it sounds like you are Nu2Keys: You're in a flat out pedal to the metal band with bashing drums, two screaming guitars, and nothing miked or DI'ed whatsoever (am I right?) You prize volume over all else in your keyboard setup.

 

You know what? Under those circumstances I'm really not sure if a single Eon will keep up no matter what you do with it.

 

I believe you said somewhere in this thread that you've been happier running through guitar and bass amps, and that others have been as well.

 

Maybe that's what you should do. Take the Eon back and be happy onstage. That's what it's all about ultimately. Who are we to argue with that?

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What I said was that I got more compliments on my sound from the rest of the band the night I ended up using the bass player's spare bass amp, ironically because a friend who is a sound man had promised to bring me a powered speaker to use that night but he forgot. The best sound that I've ever had that I liked best was playing at a festival gig DI'd thru the PA and Eon's were the monitors. And we're not a metal band, but actually a blues band.
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If you're being DI'ed that's a whole different thing than what I was assuming - and a wholly better thing of course. You should be able to position that Eon for monitoring and easily be able to hear yourself no matter how loud the rest of the band is playing.

 

I wasn't assuming you were a metal band but didn't know what you guys were playing really. It was just a metaphor for a band that plays all out onstage.

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Yeah, if we're doing festivals or gigs with a sound man I'll run DI and get a good monitor mix. That's the best! However, most of our gigs are small bars and clubs where we only mic the bass drum and one overhead for the drums, if that. On those I'm competing for onstage volume with two loud guitar players and a loud bass player. THOSE gigs are the ones I need a lot of power for.
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OK I don't know how you've had the Eon positioned - but under those circumstances get it up on a speaker stand, position it just off your left or right shoulder, and make sure that nothing is blocking the horn and that the club has a direct line of sight to it. If you're relying on the Eon to completely carry the load you need to give it a fighting chance.

 

Maybe you're already doing this - if you are my apologies.

 

But I really don't think changing out the mixer is going to affect anything in a live environment like yours. I wouldn't buy the Peavey if you can continue to borrow the Behringer.

 

BTW I see nothing wrong in playing flat out :) The most memorable club band I've seen this year (and I've seen over 20) was a bunch of guys - none of them could have been a day over 25 - blasting away with more energy and enthusiasm than I've seen in a long time. It was incredibly loud and sloppy, but you couldn't help but get caught up in it. It was perfect for the venue - which was packed out that night.

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Nu2keys

 

I have the JBL 510's which are the previous generation to the XT's (they still make the 510's because per JBL, they won't be making a 510-XT version).

 

1) Loose the volume pedal. Get a roland EV-5. I have found this works best with the NE2. Gives good organ expression control.

 

2) Buy a small mixer. I use a Rolls MX28. Simple 3 in and one out. You won't need bass and treble controls. You only need to boost the gain to drive the XT to full volume. With this mixer I use the main output on the NE2, not the headphone output.

 

I have tried the mic input gain thing but it creates to much noise. I mostly play in places that provide FOH, etc so I use my 510's as monitors set on either side of me facing up from the floor. With another band I use them as my main system in bars/clubs etc. I have them set up on a stand projecting out. I have PLENTY of headroom/volume in these situations so I can only imangine how loud one XT would/should sound.

 

 

Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK-1 + Ventilator, Korg Triton. 2 JBL Eon 510's.

 

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I've used the Eon for two gigs so far, and I've positioned it laying down behind me facing toward my head. We have two gigs this weekend and I will probably buy the PV6 mixer, since it is here and available and at a good price, so I will have several volume enhancing options depending on what the gigs turn out to be like.

 

I'll have to investigate the Roland EV-5 because I really don't know if I will like what it does differently than waht a volume pedal does. I will say this: On our second CD (I wasn't on the first) I used the studio's M3 and I didn't like the fact that the volume (expression?) pedal didn't turn the volume all the way off. On some songs we do I like to fade to zero or build up from nothing. Maybe that's not normal Hammond orgain type things but I'm coming to keyboards from being a guitar player.

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I'll have to investigate the Roland EV-5 because I really don't know if I will like what it does differently than waht a volume pedal does. I will say this: On our second CD (I wasn't on the first) I used the studio's M3 and I didn't like the fact that the volume (expression?) pedal didn't turn the volume all the way off. On some songs we do I like to fade to zero or build up from nothing. Maybe that's not normal Hammond orgain type things but I'm coming to keyboards from being a guitar player.

 

What the EV5 will do (and it wouldn't be my first choice expression pedal, because it has such a short throw, and I have one and keep it as a back up, to the Yamaha FC7 w/adapter, a much better pedal IMHO) will allow the organ stage of the Nord sound and express like a "real" Hammond.

 

It's already been explained to you by a number of people about the disadvantages of using the volume pedal with the already weak output of the Nord, yet you continue to seem reluctant to go with that very good advice.

 

I really don't understand your issue with the volume NOT turning all the way off when using a swell pedal. Legions of Hammond players for decades have done fade out endings on recordings and live and manage to play through this issue. It's just part of a Hammond being a Hammond. In a live situation, it's still quiet enough that you should stop playing your fade by the time you reach bottom (I do it all the time on Green Onions).

 

Seriously though, the trade off between a volume pedal that goes to zero output vs. a swell pedal that allows the natural distortion and harmonic saturation that happens when a Hammond is floored is a "no brainer", especially since one is counter to your goal (hotter output for your Nord) and you'll be amazed how much better your Nord organ stage will sound.

 

Sorry, but your asking a group of hard core Hammond "purists" advice about something that bastardizes a sound we hold dear, so pardon us for being a little adamant about it.

 

About speaker placement, I routinely place my powered speaker (Mackie SRM450 run into a rack line mixer), lying wedge style about one meter behind me to my right at a 45 degree angle to me and the audience. It works great for personal monitoring AND also provides ample coverage when not going FOH on small to medium venues. I routinely play (my NE2 and CP33) with a guitarist with a Fender Vibrolux and have no issues keeping up with him or my bassist. I do gain up the NE2 about 20% higher than the CP33 on the mixer and it's plenty hot! Simple gain staging is everything.

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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To address your points:

 

1. The other night when I tried all of my volume enhancing options with my NE2 and Eon I actually tried them with and without the volume pedal hooked up and I found no perceptible difference in total output volume with the volume pedal in the chain. I fail to see how having a simple volume pedal "bastardizes" the sound. I have a foot switch for the rotary that I use to switch the Leslie sound from fast/slow. Is that bad, too?

 

2. Coming from a guitar background it seems crazy to me that the volume/expression pedal on a Hammond (or anything, for that matter) does not completely turn off the volume. I can't imagine turning my Strat all the way off and still getting sound out of it. That would mean it's time for replacing the potentiometer. I guess I can maybe understand the "Hammond" mentality but the NE2 is NOT a Hammond and I'm not a "Hammond" guy. I know of two local guys who wouldn't play a gig without a B3. THOSE guys are Hammond guys, but I'm not.

 

 

3. Is everyone on this Forum a "hard core Hammond purist?" Really? Nobody on here is more of a synth player? Nobody on here is a jazz pianist? No classical or concert pianists on here? No guys in working bands that play clones? If so, I guess I'm on the wrong forum. I guess if this is a Hammond Purist Forum then I need to find a forum for guys in working bands who play whatever board fits their personal and professional needs.

 

BWT now that I think about it how much of a hard core Hammond purist can you be if you're using a Yamaha expression pedal? The only reason that you would need that is if you are not using a real Hammond organ, at least not an old one! Can you be a hard core Hammond purist if you're using a Hammond/Suzuki clone?

 

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Mr. Nu2Keys - it's OK. Take a breath.

 

Take a minute and read the information on this website about Swell Control in Electronic Organs: KLONK HERE!

 

Excerpt from the article:

 

To my ears it encapsulates all of the major characteristics of real swell boxes which are worth simulating, and these are recapitulated below:

 

1. The overall attenuation of the sound when the box is closed should not be too much or too little.

 

2. There should be some frequency-dependent tone control effect related to pedal position, rather than a simple volume control.

 

3. The sensitivity of the control should be greatest near to the "box closed" position.

 

4. The maximum rate at which the sound changes should be limited, even when the pedal itself is moved quickly.

 

=================

 

Mr. Nu2Keys, forums and email messages have limited bandwidth. Folks are trying to be helpful here. The message is distorted because you're not talking face-to-face and can't see expressions. Much is lost.

 

THIS is the reason why I think many of these discussions would be a LOT easier if we were all talking with each other - say in a bar on a Saturday afternoon with a beverage of choice in hand.

 

No kidding.

 

Step back from the computer. Take a break. Come back a little later.

 

We'll be here. :)

 

Tom

 

 

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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To address your points:

 

1. The other night when I tried all of my volume enhancing options with my NE2 and Eon I actually tried them with and without the volume pedal hooked up and I found no perceptible difference in total output volume with the volume pedal in the chain. I fail to see how having a simple volume pedal "bastardizes" the sound. I have a foot switch for the rotary that I use to switch the Leslie sound from fast/slow. Is that bad, too?

 

2. Coming from a guitar background it seems crazy to me that the volume/expression pedal on a Hammond (or anything, for that matter) does not completely turn off the volume. I can't imagine turning my Strat all the way off and still getting sound out of it. That would mean it's time for replacing the potentiometer. I guess I can maybe understand the "Hammond" mentality but the NE2 is NOT a Hammond and I'm not a "Hammond" guy. I know of two local guys who wouldn't play a gig without a B3. THOSE guys are Hammond guys, but I'm not.

 

 

3. Is everyone on this Forum a "hard core Hammond purist?" Really? Nobody on here is more of a synth player? Nobody on here is a jazz pianist? No classical or concert pianists on here? No guys in working bands that play clones? If so, I guess I'm on the wrong forum. I guess if this is a Hammond Purist Forum then I need to find a forum for guys in working bands who play whatever board fits their personal and professional needs.

 

BWT now that I think about it how much of a hard core Hammond purist can you be if you're using a Yamaha expression pedal? The only reason that you would need that is if you are not using a real Hammond organ, at least not an old one! Can you be a hard core Hammond purist if you're using a Hammond/Suzuki clone?

 

To your points.

 

You hit the nail on the head with your statement starting with "I fail to see . . . . ."

 

 

Point 1.

 

You simply don't understand the difference between an inline voume pedal and the swell pedal (via the control jack) on the Nord. If you actually tried a control pedal instead of your inline volume pedal, you'll hear the difference. I guess that's something you're not interested in considering. Since you're a guitar player, I'll try and put it into terms you can more easily understand.

 

The swell pedal on a Hammond creates a "saturation" much like overdriving a tube guitar amp. At some point, it doesn't get louder, the sound gets more dense and some cool harmonic stuff starts to happen. The "control pedal" circuitry in the Nord emulates what the rheostat box in a tonewheel hammond does. It's also why the control pedal jack doesn't control volume on the other sounds on the Nord.

 

Using a footswitch to change rotary speed doesn't bastardize anything, since it simply is a speed control. I use the same kind of footswitch when using the Nord internal if I'm not using the Vent.

 

No need to be cheeky, especially when you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

Point 2.

 

The NE2 is a Hammond clone and capturing the basic functionality of what it is cloning is part of what it is suppose to do. You're not a Hammond guy, so be it. If you don't like it, too bad. The rest of us that purchase a clone on its basis to more faithfully replicate the way a Hammond works, appreciates it.

 

Maybe you should just play a rompler.

 

 

Point 3.

 

No. Everyone here is NOT a hard core Hammond purist, however you have had a very large number of responses from those that are. You should consider the advice given from those who know more about how a Hammond works than you do, as the "correct way", but do what you want anyway. Just because you choose to ignore something doesn't invalidate it's correctness.

 

This forum caters to all groups, genres and levels of players. It is disconcerting when someone who gets such good advice from lots of people continues to get ignored, since it seems like you're just "answer shopping" until someone tells you what YOU want to hear. If what you want to hear is wrong, you won't likely here it here.

 

FWIW, I'm both a jazz pianist, who is classically trained. I'm also a jazz organist and have played Hammonds for most of my life. I also play clones because they're more practical and they sound good enough to serve my "bread and butter" applications in most settings.

 

Your "BTW" has NO bearing to this conversation (and brings a tone that goes a little negative, which is always nice to hear when someone tries to provide assistance), and I don't need to justify my Hammond "street cred" but since you brought it up, I'll respond.

 

1. I own and play four console tonewheel Hammonds, all with Leslies.

 

2. I gig with my B3/142 on where it is appropriate and necessary, or it is expected (example, a large jazz festival gig with my organ trio).

 

3. I also use an Xk3 Pro system with the Hammond Exp-100F pedal when I don't take the B3 out.

 

4. I love my Nord for it's ease of transport and it makes the perfect accompaniment to my CP33 as a top keyboard. The Yamaha "expression pedal" has a long throw and provides the best control solution out there when using the Nord and taking out the consoles or the Xk3 system is overkill.

 

Even the most ardent Hammond purist has to succumb to the reality of gigging with a console tonewheel and using more practical options when they're called for.

 

Now, with this post, I'm going to join Sven in getting "out of this discussion" since nothing more can be said to help you, since you have no interest in listening to reason or experience.

 

:wave:

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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Other powered speakers will be similar unless they have switches to select between -10dBV and +4dBu.

 

I already covered the importance of an expression pedal above. I may have overlooked one bit, though: I said that the expression pedal won't affect volume for things other than Hammond. However, someone posted something that sounded like it has a mode where it can work for the other sounds too. Of course, you can't get both that and the pedal-wah feature.

 

Also, try using the TRS from headphone out into your volume pedal into the JBL. Just use one side. IMHO, it'll sound better than using both, for most patches.

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I appreciate the comments and recommendations on this subject from everyone involved. I tried all of the suggestions except for the expression pedal suggestion because I will have to buy one to try it, which I will do. Thanks to all!
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