JBL Eon 515XT First Impressions: IT'S NOT LOUD ENOUGH!!!

[B3bluesman59]

Bill H said: I think there is a mic/line or some kind of switch on the third imput only.

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The mic/line button is on the XLR input only, at least on the G2 modesl I think it is the same with the 515s.

[Nu2Keys]

This thread is yet another illustration that a hell of a lot of folks just don't understand amplification and gain staging.

 

Well, I guess that's ME! However, in my defense, I DID start at least two different threads on here about the Eons and did a lot of online research as well. Admittedly the information available is pretty sketchy.

 

Question: What do you guys who play keys play through onstage when you are NOT also running thru the PA?

[ewall08530]

 

Question: What do you guys who play keys play through onstage when you are NOT also running thru the PA?

 

I'm always using a QSC K-10 for every gig but I'm also using

a Soundcraft Notepad mixer with it.

 

If the keys are in the FOH main PA then I output from the Notepad to DI and the monitor is on the floor.

 

If the keys are not in the FOH the K-10 goes on a speaker stand behind me and well above my head. I usually end up playing at a louder volume then I would like in this type of

situation but getting the speaker above my head and sometimes

earplugs when I have to allows me the volume I need.

Luckily the no keys in the PA gigs only account for less than 10 percent of what I do.

 

ewall.biz

 

 

[Bill H.]

For me:

 

Behringer X1832 mixer (actually cleaner and with more headroom than my Mackie 1402)

 

Yamaha P7000s power amp

 

Yorkville Elite EF508 speakers (both of them) on stands.

 

This is if I'm on my own and not going through the mains. Never a problem being heard with this system, which is usually better than the mains of whatever band I'm playing with that night. Clean crisp highs, tons of low end for synths and organs, and headroom to die for.

 

Edit: This is if I know I'm really going to need the firepower. The last several gigs I've just used Bose 802s because the rooms were small and the bands behaved themselves. They're much lighter. If I were still gigging regularly I'd probably get a couple of PRXs.

 

But I'd keep the mixer.

[JeffLearman]

In a combination powered cabinet like this one, the only number that means anything at all is Max SPL.

1) Griff beat me to it.

 

What contributes more to the area of a rectangle, the length or width? Answer: the question makes no sense. Just as area is the product of length and width, volume is the product of watts and speaker efficiency. Talking about watts while ignoring efficiency is like asking the area of a fence that's 10 feet long.

 

2) Guitar amps play WAY over their rated wattage level. In theory, wattage is rated at some specified distortion level. An amp that rates 10 watts at .1% THD could easily give 100 watts at 10% THD. Don't try to compare loudness of good flat PA speakers with guitar amps; it's a waste of time. I run a 750 watt stereo PA and play with a guy who uses an 8 watt guitar amp, and we're at the same level. But, he can outblast me if he wants.

 

3) You don't know how much headroom your system has by looking at a knob. All that tells you is how much higher you can turn it up (which is maybe what you meant: power in reserve for when those nasty guitarists get even louder). (This is what the "gain staging" comments are referring to: you can't see headroom by looking at a knob.)

 

In any case, the only time you use a mixer to make a system louder is if the input is below nominal. You shouldn't need a mixer, even with the NE's slightly low output level. Do you know how to use the patch volume knob, on the right side of the NE? I cranked the pianos up all the way, and backed off on the Hammond to balance.

 

4) Make the guitarists get amp stands that angle the amps so each is pointed at the guitarist's head. The problem is they stand right in front of it, with amp on the floor (SOUNDS BETTER THAT WAY, right?) and it blows under their legs, so it's louder to everyone but themselves. This is "guitar 101" and I'm sure Griff knows it but gawdawful too many guitarists don't.

 

5) The NE is a bit on the weak side, though not too much. Try that headphone output. If the JBL expects +4dBu, the NE won't get anywhere near its high input range. If the JBL has a -10dBV / +4dBu switch, put it in the -10dBU position. And try the headphone outputs.

 

6) What do we use? Stuff just like that Eon, though 15" woofer is not what I'd want: I like a tighter midrange response from 12" or 10", and get enough bass from 12" so that's what I use (JBL JRX112M wedges with Yamaha YMX-5000).

 

7) The Eon is rated at 132 dB SPL max, which is pretty freaking loud. (My system is 129 dBSPL, and it's no shrinking violet.) But it might have a narrow dispersion. Check the specs for the dispersion angle and make sure you're in its cone of projection -- i.e., that it's pointed at you enough.

 

The 515xt says 100 degrees by 60 degrees -- that 60 is narrow, make sure you're in it. I'm guessing the 60 is vertical, 100 is horizontal. The user's manual should clarify this.

 

8) I love my MR76. I'd like a ZR76 even more! What a great keyboard for its day; IMHO it still competes with better gear today in many ways.

[J. Dan]

Question: What do you guys who play keys play through onstage when you are NOT also running thru the PA?

 

That's not the point - the point is that you probably DO have enough power, you just need to give it a hotter signal, which is not an issue with the internal power amp or speaker, but the gains stage - be it keyboard, preamp, mixer, or whatever you use. I haven't yet heard you offer any evidence that, when pushed with a hot enough input signal, the JBL can't keep up. If it couldn't keep up because it was clipping or farting out, that would be another story.

[Nu2Keys]

... Do you know how to use the patch volume knob, on the right side of the NE? I cranked the pianos up all the way, and backed off on the Hammond to balance.....

 

That's the output level, all the way to the right, with a treble and bass control? I had it all the way up. Input level (on the left side) all the way up, too. My volume pedal was basically all the way up, and volume on the channel on the JBL at about 3/4 full volume. I had the speaker laying down pointing directly to the back of my head.

[Griffinator]

4) Make the guitarists get amp stands that angle the amps so each is pointed at the guitarist's head. The problem is they stand right in front of it, with amp on the floor (SOUNDS BETTER THAT WAY, right?) and it blows under their legs, so it's louder to everyone but themselves. This is "guitar 101" and I'm sure Griff knows it but gawdawful too many guitarists don't.

 

 

Worst part is when they dial their tone in based on what they're hearing between their legs (major loss of HF information) and the guitar gets progressively shrill and fatiguing on EVERYONE'S ears, not just the band's...

[B3bluesman59]

Question: What do you guys who play keys play through onstage when you are NOT also running thru the PA?

________________________________________________________________

I use two EON 15" G2s on my solo gigs. I usually run the keys in stereo. When playing with a band I use only one G2...one unit still gives me plenty of volume and I play with some pretty loud classic rock bands. Keys I have used with the G2s are a Yammy P-80, Kurz SP-76, Korg CX3 and a Casio PX3. As I said, these boards all feed plenty of signal into the G2s. If we are running the band through a house PA I use the G2 for a stage monitor.

[JeffLearman]

That's the output level, all the way to the right, with a treble and bass control?

Both of those are output levels.

 

The one on the left is the master output level. It stays where you set it, and it's unaffected by selected patches.

 

The one on the right is the patch volume, and is saved with a patch. If you crank it up and then change patches, it reverts to whatever was saved with the patch. So, for your main piano patch, crank that to the right and then save the patch. (I think the NE manual calls them "programs".)

 

Here's the root issue, though, from the specs:

Line Input Gain: -Infinity to +4dBu (+18dBu maximum input level)

 

That means it's basically a +4dBu input, but the NE and the ZR76 are both -10dBV outputs. The difference is about 12dB, which is two to four times as loud.

 

Use the headphone output. The trick there is knowing where to set the output level so that it's in the sweet spot for the JBL. Here's my suggestion, though it might hurt your ears for a moment.

 

Set the JBL's input to about 75%.

 

On the NE, go to organ, max all the drawbars, and turn the patch volume knob to about 75%. Volume or expression pedal all the way down (full volume). Turn off the overdrive, or if you have a baseline level you like, use that.

 

Turn the NE's master volume (on the LEFT) to zero and hold a chord on the organ. Crank up the NE's master volume until you see the limiter light coming on, on the JBL. That's the top end, so make a note of it and then back off on the NE2's master.

 

Then feel free to adjust the JBL's input fader so that the NE2's master falls in a range you're comfortable with.

 

Meanwhile, make sure all the patches/programs you use have reasonable patch volumes. As I said, I crank the acoustic pianos all the way up; I've never heard them distort as a result of that. I adjust the others to match the pianos. That way you won't have to adust the volume so much, when changing patches.

 

Finally: you mentioned a volume pedal. Is that an expression pedal plugged into the NE2's "control" input? Ideally yes -- in which case it doesn't affect the piano level, just the organ. That's the authentic way in that it adds distortion as you increase the pedal (if you have overdrive turned on). It allows you to go from screaming to sweet or vice versa with your foot, as you play. Very important for proper playing dynamics on Hammond organ, and a volume pedal (like a guitar volume pedal) won't do that.

[JeffLearman]

Worst part is when they dial their tone in based on what they're hearing between their legs (major loss of HF information) and the guitar gets progressively shrill and fatiguing on EVERYONE'S ears, not just the band's...

Let's not discuss what might or might not be between a guitarist's legs. Unless she's cute, that is.

[Theo Verelst]

Well the comparison with guitar marshall stacks and 19 or 12 inch cabinets or nesa boogies for all I care should be so that an actual 100 Watt lets say measured power (difficult measures) should in principle be matched by my 5 way 2x100W sine + sub, without too many problems and with some other instruments added. I would not like to try while having not many spare parts as it is now...

 

I guess about the direct OP question it sounds likely at least he could use some signal boost. I mean a jbl with thoses specs should not completely disappear compared to some guitars, unless they try really hard and you don't know how to make power chords or square wave solo sounds with delay to pass through those bass reflexes (or just one of them ?).

 

[JeffLearman]

Theo, it's just a line level mismatch, made worse because the NE is a bit on the low side.

 

In any case, you can't just compare watts, for the reasons mentioned above: speaker efficiency and desired distortion levels vary way too much, enough to make 20 or 30 dB difference with the same wattage. If you want to compare volume, you have to measure volume.

 

Like I said, watts don't tell you all you need to know; they barely get you in the ballpark. How much paint do I need for a fence 100 feet long?

[Theo Verelst]

I'm more interested in the quality game, but 30 dB diff depends on frequency or you're talking specia; stadion speakers. Spl per watt usually varies less than that, and neither bass relfex or spread angle will do that much, unless you use horrible cabinet reflexions possibly with bass port., or, like unfortunately people do, room reflections. Of course distortion matters but not so many dbs normally.

[Griffinator]

I'm more interested in the quality game, but 30 dB diff depends on frequency or you're talking specia; stadion speakers. Spl per watt usually varies less than that, and neither bass relfex or spread angle will do that much, unless you use horrible cabinet reflexions possibly with bass port., or, like unfortunately people do, room reflections. Of course distortion matters but not so many dbs normally.

 

Actually, the comparison cited by the OP (a Fender Twin versus a self-contained PA speaker) will have that kind of wild variance.

 

1) Guitars don't output a complete frequency range, hence they don't need a speaker that can reach from 20 to 20K. Therefore, the amplifier is made immediately more efficient by having a more limited frequency range to output.

 

2) Further, the speakers can be full-range speakers instead of convoluted combinations of tweeters and woofers, since there is no need to achieve the extension of a PA speaker.

 

3) Guitar amplifiers don't need to be perfectly clean and pristine to accomplish their stated goals, hence the attention to detail with things like damping and feedback can get thrown out the window, once again making the amp more efficient at its much more limited job.

 

4) An open-back cabinet or combo will be far, far, far more efficient in terms of raw SPL than a closed-back, whether ported or not, because there is zero air resistance against the cone.

[Nu2Keys]

...Finally: you mentioned a volume pedal. Is that an expression pedal plugged into the NE2's "control" input? ...

 

No, I have a patch cord from the mono output into the volume pedal and then out of the pedal into whatever amp I'm using. That way I can control the volume of NE2 for any sound patch with it. Is that incorrect?

[JeffLearman]

It's not incorrect, but it's not the best/authentic way to control a Hammond organ.

 

On a Hammond, the swell pedal is between the preamp output and the amp (usually a Leslie). The preamp is usually fairly clean at all levels; the distortion comes from the Leslie, and only when you have the swell pedal near full on. With a fair amount of drive, the last bit of pedal movement doesn't change volume as much as tone (adding distortion). The ability to go from sweet to screaming and back again is an important artistic element on the instrument.

 

However, many people also like to have a foot-controlled master volume, and there's nothing wrong with that. So, you were using the term correctly. I find I don't need a foot contoller for volume with the other instruments (piano, EP, clav). I control volume using dynamics, or adjust the main volume as needed and not frequently.

 

You use a different kind of pedal for the Control input, usually called Expression pedal and sometimes called CV (control voltage). I use a Kurzweil one I got cheap on ebay (and it's a cheapie controller too, not one of the nice ones that are smooth underfoot). If you look into it, be sure to find out which ones are compatible. I highly recommend it though, it's totally the way to play Hammond, just as important as drawbar control.

[JeffLearman]

I'm more interested in the quality game, but 30 dB diff depends on frequency or you're talking specia; stadion speakers.

Actually, the comparison cited by the OP (a Fender Twin versus a self-contained PA speaker) will have that kind of wild variance.

Yes, that's what I meant. For clean flat speakers, Theo is right that we don't see this range, though there's still a wide gap (well over 10dB) between studio monitors and stage speakers. Even more, between the least efficient studio monitors and the most efficient stage speakers in the types we talk about here (ignoring the stadium blasters, which I know nothing about). BTW, my off-the-cuff 30 dB is based on the simple experience of an 8-watt guitar amp being as loud or louder than a 750-watt PA. All other things being equal, that's nearly a 30dB difference in efficiency, but I'm starting with an efficient speaker system, not studio monitors that would be 10dB quieter. So the range might be even wider. But no doubt some of the loudness aspects are psychoacoustic and related more to tone color than sheer volume.

 

And to add to Griffinator's list:

 

5) Guitar speaker cabs are colored, not flat even in the limited range for the guitar. Electric guitars sound better this way, and the speakers can be a lot more efficient because of it.

 

I've never seen efficiency specs for guitar speakers, but I'm sure they'd be surprisingly higher than PA speakers. I do know that they vary a lot, though it's been too long to remember the brands. I seem to recall terms like Celestion and Black Widow. I'm sure the guys on the guitar forum could go on for days about it, just as we fuss over the difference between a Ventilator and the builtin Leslie sims.

[Griffinator]

Actually, the speaks themselves tend to be a lot more efficient on the PA side of the ball than the guitar amp side, because manufacturers are going for a specific color when they build guitar speakers, where PA speaker manufacturers are going for maximum efficiency.

 

That said, all that efficiency goes swirling down the drain in a hell of a hurry when you stuff it into a ported or sealed cab and wire it up to a crossover that is diverting power in all sorts of convoluted ways to other speakers in the system.

[frogmonkey]

Question: What do you guys who play keys play through onstage when you are NOT also running thru the PA?

 

Here's a possible solution for you. From the specs, it looks like there's a mic/line switch on the new Eon. Switch it to "mic" and it will be much more sensitive. Be careful, because it will be a LOT hotter. You might have to turn down the volume on the electro to keep it from clipping.

 

If you can't get that to work, a mixer is in order. The mic preamps will boost the signal before feeding it to the Eon. But I'd take some time to experiment with the "mic" setting first before going for a mixer.

 

I believe the new Eon will hold its own against a Twin. The old ones did.

 

 

[J. Dan]

I've seen guitar speakers with efficiencies as high as 103dB, which is rare in PA speakers, which tend to be more 98-101. Not a huge difference, but guitar speakers can be VERY efficient over their intended frequency range.

 

Also, amp ratings are usually specified at less than a certain amount of distortion. Running a clean mix, you have to operate your RMS level sufficiently below that so that your peaks aren't clipping.

 

With guitar, distortion is usually the goal. So much of the content is occurring above the clipping point. Add to that the fact that tube amps have much more headroom between the amount of distortion that results in their power rating, and full clipping. You can bet a 100w tube guitar amp is putting out way more power than a solis state 100w amp operating cleanly.

[Griffinator]

I've seen guitar speakers with efficiencies as high as 103dB, which is rare in PA speakers, which tend to be more 98-101. Not a huge difference, but guitar speakers can be VERY efficient over their intended frequency range.

 

Also, amp ratings are usually specified at less than a certain amount of distortion. Running a clean mix, you have to operate your RMS level sufficiently below that so that your peaks aren't clipping.

 

With guitar, distortion is usually the goal. So much of the content is occurring above the clipping point. Add to that the fact that tube amps have much more headroom between the amount of distortion that results in their power rating, and full clipping. You can bet a 100w tube guitar amp is putting out way more power than a solis state 100w amp operating cleanly.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

It's the reason why I'm getting ready to spring for an 8w tube combo to replace my 120w SS combo, for the same application (kicked back and used as a stage monitor with a mic in front of it for FOH and drummer's monitors)

[JeffLearman]

And the funny part is the 8 watter might cost more (boutique amps!)

 

Here's a possible solution for you. From the specs, it looks like there's a mic/line switch on the new Eon. Switch it to "mic" and it will be much more sensitive. Be careful, because it will be a LOT hotter. You might have to turn down the volume on the electro to keep it from clipping.

 

If you can't get that to work, a mixer is in order. The mic preamps will boost the signal before feeding it to the Eon. But I'd take some time to experiment with the "mic" setting first before going for a mixer.

 

I believe the new Eon will hold its own against a Twin. The old ones did.

 

I recommend against using the 'mic' setting. That's also likely to be low impedance, meaning the NE's outputs won't see the resistance they're designed to see. It causes them to sink more current. In the bad old days, that would have fried them, but I believe circuits are more robust now (because I don't see lots of warnings in manuals .. maybe the manuals are just worse!) So, it's worth a try, and probably won't damage anything, but won't be how it's designed to operate.

 

I also don't think a mixer is needed simply because you have the headphone output. Otherwise, a mixer or the right kind of DI box to rais the -10dBU signal to +4dBu (which any mixer worth its salt can do) would be appropriate.

 

The right kind of cable is an "insert" cable which has 1/4" TRS at one end and two 1/4" TS at the other. Use one TS and tape the other one out of harm's way with electrical tape. Use both if you ever get a stereo rig.

[J. Dan]

What about using a DI into the mic input?

[frogmonkey]

I recommend against using the 'mic' setting. That's also likely to be low impedance, meaning the NE's outputs won't see the resistance they're designed to see.

Some people are doing this successfully with the QSC K's.

 

 

I also don't think a mixer is needed simply because you have the headphone output.

 

The right kind of cable is an "insert" cable which has 1/4" TRS at one end and two 1/4" TS at the other. Use one TS and tape the other one out of harm's way with electrical tape. Use both if you ever get a stereo rig.

 

Excellent plan! BUT I'd say you have to plug both those TS cables into the EON, or you're missing half the sound! Stereo sounds like the Leslie Simulation won't get summed to mono.

[Theo Verelst]

Why do these zenn-motor-maintenance schemes about covering and fencing audio technology gravitate towards the lower echelons?

[Griffinator]

The right kind of cable is an "insert" cable which has 1/4" TRS at one end and two 1/4" TS at the other. Use one TS and tape the other one out of harm's way with electrical tape. Use both if you ever get a stereo rig.

 

Excellent plan! BUT I'd say you have to plug both those TS cables into the EON, or you're missing half the sound! Stereo sounds like the Leslie Simulation won't get summed to mono.

 

A fair point, for certain.

[Nu2Keys]

Wow, thanks guys for all the info. I thought getting the Eon would improve my sound without complicating it but this is all getting WAY more involved than I had anticipated. I didn't get to work with the NE2/Eon combo at all last night, but at least I have a few things to try so I'll let the Forum know how it all turns out. I'm playing another outside gig Sat. night so that will be another good test. Thanks again!

[Griffinator]

Sometimes integrated components can cause more headaches than they solve.

[Meisenhower]

Wow, thanks guys for all the info. I thought getting the Eon would improve my sound without complicating it but this is all getting WAY more involved than I had anticipated. I didn't get to work with the NE2/Eon combo at all last night, but at least I have a few things to try so I'll let the Forum know how it all turns out. I'm playing another outside gig Sat. night so that will be another good test. Thanks again!

 

It's really not complicated at all. Get a small mixer and you can adjust the gain to the EON and you're done.

 

I use my NE2 with a Mackie SRM450 and a mixer all the time and there's plenty of volume.