HammondDave Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Am I the only one bothered by the seemingly loose use of the word "Drawbar" when the device is actually a fader with a drawbar tip on it? Looking at the Numa and the Hammond/Suzuki SK1/2, both manufacturers are calling their tone shaping devices "drawbars" when they are actually "faders". The word "Drawbar" is defined by the two words... Draw and Bar. Draw meaning "pulling away", and Bar meaning a long piece of hardware. The new devices are not bars, and you do not pull them away. They are faders (yes, just like on the Motif) with drawbar tips on them. I don't call the faders on my Motif "drawbars", even when I use them for the same purpose when controlling my VB3! OK... my rant is over... You may commit me now... '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Even the "Drawbars" on the old tonewheel Hammonds were in effect faders. It is just that the fader control (drawbar knob) was placed on the end instead of in the center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Instead of Hammonddave or VentaDave maybe your nickname should be CurmudgeonDave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Even the "Drawbars" on the old tonewheel Hammonds were in effect faders. It is just that the fader control (drawbar knob) was placed on the end instead of in the center. True, but they look and feel solid compared to your average fader. Obviously because of its smaller size/weight, the SK1 utilizes faders. Are they made in China? When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3maniac Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Having played/gigged with real Hammonds for many years, I am more comfortable with something that at least emulates real drawbars. I even bought a NI B4D control set-up so I could use my laptop for the occasional jam sessions....Don Yamaha MOXF8, MOXF6, Radial Key Largo, Yamaha DXR 10's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 For all intents and purposes, they are drawbars. They function like drawbars. They feel like drawbars. They look like drawbars. How about we stop nitpicking and save our critiques for when we've actually played the instrument in question? Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 What fun would that be, Jim? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 "Drawfaders" -- only they're not faders either; they're linear pots, so "drawpots". (A fader is a volume control.) Most faders feel different than drawbars, but evidently not here based on what Jim says. If the feel and spacing is the same, it doesn't matter to me whether they stick out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 If I had seen this thread first, I would have posted the below here (instead of on the SK1 44 parge thread): The original Hammond Drawbar design was taken from professional audio equipment, like broadcast consoles - carbon or wirewound potentiometers were not used, there were a number of fixed resistors wired in series, with a sliding switch designed to make contact with one resitor junction at a time. Most of these at the time were made in circular form, but there were some designs that were linear. So, the original concept had nine different solid silver busbars in close proxminity, with resistors between each one, generator signal applied to the top of the chain. There were also two different drawbar designs in the tube/tonewheel days. The first design had small enough contacts on the drawbar so that contact was broken from one buss before being made on the next - which meant that sound totally disappeared if one left the db exactly between two settings. The second series used contacts that were large enough to temporarily short between two different busses. As with so many of the original designs, they were made at a time when human factory labor was cheap enough that time required for assembling all these things was not a major cost factor. By the 1960's Hammond (original company) began doing many things to reduce the amount of human labor required to build a salable product. The drawbar design used today in such products as the XK3c or new B3 is not really close to the original, although they have gone to the trouble of making their design look and feel close to the original - they are actually using what amounts to faders with knobs on the ends - but their mechanical design is such that the feel is better retained. I have not researched it, but I'd bet that their design is covered by patents, just to prevent other companies from freely making "real" drawbars on competing products. H-S would probably license the design, but cost would be a definite factor. Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Am I the only one bothered by the seemingly loose use of the word "Drawbar" when the device is actually a fader with a drawbar tip on it? Very likely, yes, you are the only one. Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Most faders feel different than drawbars, but evidently not here based on what Jim says. As I mentioned in my original review somewhere in that enormously long SK1 thread, they do feel different than real drawbars but not so much as to be a distraction. There is no "click" between numbers. They are perfectly smooth. The resistance is therefor a bit different. They actually feel like the Numa and KeyB drawbars, something I noticed when I played both of those this week. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinny Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 How about we stop nitpicking Ha! Right! Stuff and things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 What's funny is when the Ocean Beach "faders" came out for the Nords, a lot of people panned them, saying they weren't drawbars, but a box of faders with drawbar ends on them. Now that Hammond has done that, it's somehow ok. Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1 Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6 www.bksband.com www.echoesrocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 This thread is about semantics. We must be running out of REAL topics to discuss. Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 What's funny is when the Ocean Beach "faders" came out for the Nords, a lot of people panned them, saying they weren't drawbars, but a box of faders with drawbar ends on them. Now that Hammond has done that, it's somehow ok. AHAHAHAHA thanks Dan, you made me LOL for a moment. Which reminds me, I am still thinking about a set of v2 OB Drawbars for my NS2 vs. the old school MIDI Drawbars, simply due to schlep factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinny Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 This thread is about semantics. What's funny is when the Ocean Beach "faders" came out for the Nords, a lot of people panned them, saying they weren't drawbars, but a box of faders with drawbar ends on them. Now that Hammond has done that, it's somehow ok. It's Hammond Suzuki. Stuff and things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonianKing Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 What's funny is when the Ocean Beach "faders" came out for the Nords, a lot of people panned them, saying they weren't drawbars, but a box of faders with drawbar ends on them. Now that Hammond has done that, it's somehow ok. "The purple piper plays his tune, The choir softly sing; Three lullabies in an ancient tongue, For the court of the crimson king" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 This thread is about semantics. What's funny is when the Ocean Beach "faders" came out for the Nords, a lot of people panned them, saying they weren't drawbars, but a box of faders with drawbar ends on them. Now that Hammond has done that, it's somehow ok. It's Hammond Suzuki. That's right. God forbid that you criticize anything Suzuki does. I remember all the comments regarding the OB drawbar module due to it's fader design. Same for the Numa "drawbars". Now that this cost saving design has been copied for the SK series, all is fine with the design. Guess that Kool-aid tastes pretty good. '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB Dave Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hey, did anything happen while I was away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 What's funny is when the Ocean Beach "faders" came out for the Nords, a lot of people panned them, saying they weren't drawbars, but a box of faders with drawbar ends on them. Now that Hammond has done that, it's somehow ok. I was one of those people and I messed with the OB faders on the Legendary Blues Cruise this past January. They are a decent substitute and I commend Dave for filling a niche that people were asking for, but even the guy who had them for his Nord on the cruise said they weren't really drawbars nor did they feel much like drawbars. And after playing with them, I agree. The drawbars on the SK1, however, do feel like drawbars and I think that's due to the fact that they aren't just faders with funny looking knobs on the end but have an actual bar that slides/draws in and out of a slot in the back and they also have a similar resistance / feel (sans clicking) to their 1950's era counterparts. So how many people here have felt both the OB unit and the drawbars on the SK1 (and the Numa)? Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernMeister Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Let's face it, faders are here to stay. The positive side to this is that we may just see a future clonewheel organ with motorized faders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pa Gherkin Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Guess this is as good a thread as any to post this. Recently got an Ocean Beach Digital version 2 DB-1 unit. Setup was a breeze. Opening the box was the hardest part. The unit is well engineered,built like a tank and functions exactly as it should. It gives me the same precise realtime control of harmonics as the drawbars on my B3 or M3. The "funny looking knobs" are even shaped like those on the ends of the drawbars on my 1957 M3. It is very easy to assign the drawbars to either manual on the fly. For me,the DB-1 really makes using certain organ techniques possible that are pretty much impossible with drawbuttons. As for the feel,to me they feel great. The only way I can describe the feel is,it's more hydraulic feeling than I've felt with Hammond or clonewheel drawbars. Very smooth,yet quick. I find these to be a far more than "decent" substitute for the drawbars to which we're accustomed. Highly recommended for any Nord player who misses their drawbars. In addition,OB Dave and Ocean Beach Digital are a class act. I hope these opinions are of some value to anyone interested. I've quoted bits of a couple of B3-er's comments regarding the DB-1 with which I'm not in total accord. This in no way intended to disrespect him or disparage his unquestionable musicality or knowledge of things Hammond. Actually,I'm something of a fan. Seems I'm just more stoked regarding the OB drawbars. As for drawbars vs. faders,don't sliding faders increase their assigned value when pushed away while drawbars (and the OB sliders) increase harmonic content when pulled toward the user? You say potato,etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogmonkey Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 LOL, soon the question will be "how's the action on those drawbars?" I'm a fan of the OB drawbars, and the action works fine for me. It's true that it doesn't have the feel of the real thing, but hey... it's a Nord after all! Now, if only Dave could get the next revision to smell like Hammond Oil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 The revision looks great! Nice work, Dave. Again, they are a great alternative to the horrid "draw buttons" on the Nord. It's a very well-designed product that fills a void. I think the concept of someone using motorized faders to instantly recall drawbar settings is a very valid one. Hammond should get on that for the next generation of the XK flagship. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outkaster Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Personally I did not like the faders. I am so used to drawbars I guess. I tried one of those units after sitting in with a guy that had it on the top of a Nord. "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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