Played a Numa organ tonight

[Aidan]

next week a friend of mine will receive his SK2, so I'll ask him to give it to me for a weekend :-))))

I'll make a new video with high quality audio, with his simulator, with the Ventilator and with the 3300 leslie)

 

Yes please, Marco! That's something many of us on here would love to see!

[Jim Alfredson]

Lots of questions in here. I've been without internet for a few days, sorry.

 

I played the KeyB Duo again last night. I enjoyed it much more after using the Numa three nights in a row. The feel of the keyboard itself was better after the Numa. I had fun with it. Also, as I mentioned before, it was going through a real Leslie (well, a custom made rotary cabinet) and that certainly helps with the realism.

 

Anyway, I measured the latency using the same method as my tests with the Numa. The average was around 500 samples, or 11.2ms of latency for the KeyB.

 

Yes, that´s right, Jeff,- but I wanted to be sure, Jim subtracted the audio input latency on BOTH tracks for reporting the measured latency in milliseconds.

 

Since both tracks are going through the same interface and the same A/D conversion and are being recorded by a DAW that automatically compensates for latency, there is no need to worry about audio input latency. All tracks would be affected the same.

 

Does the mic capture the noise of your finger hitting the key or the noise of the key at the bottom of its travel (or both)? Is there a significant interval between the the time your finger hits the key and the key contact closes that should be accounted for?

 

I'm hitting the key quickly and with force, much quicker than one would normally hit it on average. I'm sure there is some delay between the finger hitting the top of the key (the initial attack of the waveform from the microphone) and when the contact underneath the key is closed, but that would be true on every keyboard, even a real Hammond. So we already have some "latency" built into the mechanics of the instrument itself; adding any more from the synthesis engine makes it even worse. And the synthesis engine is definitely adding some. All digital keyboards do. The question is how much?

 

For the record, I didn't decide before ever playing the KeyB and Numa that they would have unacceptable (to me) latency. I played them, something felt "disconnected", and so I formed a hypothesis about what it could be and tested that hypothesis. The testing confirmed my theory, which is that they both have fairly high latency.

 

The XK3 certainly doesn't feel like that. In fact, when it first came out there were people complaining about how FAST it triggered. It took me about two weeks to get used to it; it triggers much earlier in the key's travel than a B3. It's very quick! I actually prefer it now to most B3's I play because I've become accustomed to it and can actually play quicker and with more accuracy than on most real B3s.

 

When I get home, I'll use the exact same test procedure to measure the latency of the XK3.

 

never had such latency issue with my keybduo.

are you using the new dsp version?

 

Ciao, Marco! I don't know what version it was; this was a backline provided organ.

 

I would be thankful if you used the test method outlined above to test the latency of your KeyB Duo. It would be good news indeed if this is something that has been addressed in an update.

 

I can remember (but do not ask me how to do it :-)))) ) that there is a way, with the keybduo, to make the keyboard "respond" in two different ways.

one is the standard midi touch;

the other way ("organ mode") allows the keyboard to make the generator sound as soon as you touch the key, as on a vintage hammond.

 

That might be an explanation. I did not see anything mentioned in the Numa manual about this, though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mitch Towne]

I am finding this thread really interesting. I had a Numa for a month and returned it and got a Nord C2 because, as I said somewhere in another thread, the Numa just didn't have the top end cut that my Nord E3 had.

 

Jim, your latency comments are very interesting. I can't honestly say that I sensed a latency issue on the Numa, but I did feel a lack of connection to it. I guess I probably chalked it up to a different feeling keybed than I was used to with the Nord E3. You might definitely be onto something with your tests. It's funny, when I use sounds from my MacBook Pro, I am very conscious of latency and do my best to get things as fast as possible (and with a new quad core Mac, I have no problems doing that with the Scarbee samples). I never even considered a latency issue when I was having trouble connecting with the Numa. But it makes sense considering that these instruments are just dedicated computers.

 

Jim, another thing I find interesting about your feeling of disconnect from the Numa is that I once asked you if you had any trouble with the feeling of the XM-1 module running through a normal synth keyboard. You said you didn't and I find that surprising. When I had the XM-1, using it with a synth keyboard that had a normal MIDI trigger height drove me batty. Things just weren't there when I went to play fast lines. When I run the Nord C2 with the lower MIDI contact setting, it feels the same way - sluggish. It's interesting that you found the Numa to be noticeably sluggish but not the XM.

 

Your description of the Numa as a perfect picture of a Hammond sound (or however you put it) is right on. When I was explaining why I went with the Nord instead of the Numa to a friend, the only way to explain it was to say that the Nord might not have all the layers of realism that the Numa has but that it sounds more satisfying overall. Let's face it, the Numa is a stunning recreation...but I didn't find it inspiring. The right sound unlocks things in my brain. The Numa didn't do that. The Nord does. (For you, the XK3 does.) I think that is where, for me anyway, the Numa falls short.

[Jim Alfredson]

Jim, another thing I find interesting about your feeling of disconnect from the Numa is that I once asked you if you had any trouble with the feeling of the XM-1 module running through a normal synth keyboard. You said you didn't and I find that surprising. When I had the XM-1, using it with a synth keyboard that had a normal MIDI trigger height drove me batty. Things just weren't there when I went to play fast lines. When I run the Nord C2 with the lower MIDI contact setting, it feels the same way - sluggish. It's interesting that you found the Numa to be noticeably sluggish but not the XM.

 

I never had an XM-1, I had an XM-2. I did not notice any latency issues with the XM-2 the few times I used it.

 

The KeyB Duo and the Numa are the same engine, right? If so, then I bet I would like the Numa going through a real Leslie moreso than it's internal Leslie sim. But that would not solve any of the latency issues. That's just strictly from a "tone" standpoint.

[vanderSchoot]

Hi Mitch,

 

I am getting used to the Numa after having it since late december.

I still use my electro 3 and stage classic...with and without a ventilator.

Recently I joined a rock formation so I left my Numa home for obvious reasons.

However I brought it during a rehersal to just compare all possibilities in a loud band setting.

To my surprise I liked the Numa more than in my initial comparison between the Numa and elctro3+vent.

The Nord is sounding pleasing and compressed, but at times mushy on a loud volume......not much better than the stage classic, wich is clearly inferiour using headphones and/or studio monitors.

 

The Numa remained very distinguished and minor drawbar differences noticeable.

 

And about the latency.......I don't think I ever noticed such thing.

I own a Kawai MP and the connection between the internal sounds and keyboard is phenomenal.

The moment I connect a midi device (gem rpx, nord electro3 grands) I feel the latency or disconnect.

I don't think the Numa has any real annoying latency (I do have my second board though.....bad keys on first unit).

The Numa has a fatar TP80 waterfall action with to sturdy springs for my taste.....that's for shore.

 

 

[Mitch Towne]

 

I never had an XM-1, I had an XM-2. I did not notice any latency issues with the XM-2 the few times I used it.

 

The KeyB Duo and the Numa are the same engine, right? If so, then I bet I would like the Numa going through a real Leslie moreso than it's internal Leslie sim. But that would not solve any of the latency issues. That's just strictly from a "tone" standpoint.

 

Yeah, I meant an XM-2. My comment wasn't really about the latency of the XM-2. It was more about the difference of the feel of a keyboard with a normal MIDI trigger point (i.e., any synth workstation) and a keyboard with a high Hammond-like trigger point (XK3, Nord E3, Numa). I found it hard to use the module with a normal synth keyboard.

 

To be honest, Jim, I ran the Numa through my 147 quite a few times and I was surprisingly underwhelmed. I tweaked it a lot and tried the different tonewheel sets. It sounded rather hollow.

[LX88]

Running a Numa through a 147 or 122 should sound pretty good, depending on the preamp. My comparison of the Numa through the preamp of my B-3 and into a 122 yields a pretty impressive comparison.

 

However, using the older EV speakers I have that in conjunction with EQing ( to get 12 inch woofers to "punch" similarly to leslie 15's ) makes me highly doubt I will ever drag out a leslie again.

 

I love the wide stereo soundstage of the Numa sim. Through my system, the overdrive also works extremely well.

 

My EQ, speakers and amp are not high tech at all.... in fact every time I have a chance to try a somewhat low end monitor speaker with the Numa, I try it to see how it sounds.

 

I also had good results using speakers with no horns whatsoever. It made the overdrive work better than many of the self powered stuff I tried, but in the end I went with the early 70's EV 2 way.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

 

I never had an XM-1, I had an XM-2. I did not notice any latency issues with the XM-2 the few times I used it.

 

The KeyB Duo and the Numa are the same engine, right? If so, then I bet I would like the Numa going through a real Leslie moreso than it's internal Leslie sim. But that would not solve any of the latency issues. That's just strictly from a "tone" standpoint.

 

Yeah, I meant an XM-2. My comment wasn't really about the latency of the XM-2. It was more about the difference of the feel of a keyboard with a normal MIDI trigger point (i.e., any synth workstation) and a keyboard with a high Hammond-like trigger point (XK3, Nord E3, Numa). I found it hard to use the module with a normal synth keyboard.

 

Ah, okay. Yes, it was a bit strange playing the XM-2 from a keyboard like my Yamaha SY99 or EX7. The one gig I did with Janiva with the XM-2, I played it from a MO6. Not the best feeling keyboard. But hey, you gotta go with what works.

 

I hope that someone with a Numa will do the same test as me and post their results. If this is something that's been fixed in an OS update, that would be great. If not, that would be nice to know, too.

[HammondDave]

Jim, another thing I find interesting about your feeling of disconnect from the Numa is that I once asked you if you had any trouble with the feeling of the XM-1 module running through a normal synth keyboard. You said you didn't and I find that surprising. When I had the XM-1, using it with a synth keyboard that had a normal MIDI trigger height drove me batty. Things just weren't there when I went to play fast lines. When I run the Nord C2 with the lower MIDI contact setting, it feels the same way - sluggish. It's interesting that you found the Numa to be noticeably sluggish but not the XM.

 

I never had an XM-1, I had an XM-2. I did not notice any latency issues with the XM-2 the few times I used it.

 

The KeyB Duo and the Numa are the same engine, right? If so, then I bet I would like the Numa going through a real Leslie moreso than it's internal Leslie sim. But that would not solve any of the latency issues. That's just strictly from a "tone" standpoint.

 

The KeyB is the best sounding Hammond clone I have ever played. The KeyB organ engine completely blows the SK1/XK3c out of the water. And before anyone jumps on me, Yes, I have played both.

 

The Numa also sounds significantly better than the XK3c. But not as refined as the KeyB. What I found disconcerting about the Numa was the interface, which is strictly subjective to how I play. Many musicians find the interface quite acceptable.

[MusicaL]

The Numa also sounds significantly better than the XK3c.

 

I agree. Although I never owned the XK3c, I played it enough to know my way around it. Never having played the KeyB I can't comment. But, the Numa is better sounding than my E3 plus Vent which I thought sounded killer.

 

aL

[Jim Alfredson]

The KeyB is the best sounding Hammond clone I have ever played. The KeyB organ engine completely blows the SK1/XK3c out of the water. And before anyone jumps on me, Yes, I have played both.

 

You have not played the SK1.

 

The feeling of disconnect with both the Numa and the KeyB were too much for me. This was blatantly evident after playing a nice '65 C3 with a 122 last night (the real deal).

[Matthiola]

Very interesting thread. Inspired me to do some quick latency tests:

 

Korg BX3 (version 2): around 4ms

Nord Electro 3: slightly below 4ms

Moog Voyager OS: under 3ms (deep key contacts!)

Roland RD700NX: 6.5ms (deep key contacts and weighted action may add to latency).

 

I measured the delay between the start of the key noise and the start of the instrument sound (number of samples). The 'speed' of the Moog is evident and one of the strengths of this instrument.

 

 

[HammondDave]

The KeyB is the best sounding Hammond clone I have ever played. The KeyB organ engine completely blows the SK1/XK3c out of the water. And before anyone jumps on me, Yes, I have played both.

 

You have not played the SK1.

 

The feeling of disconnect with both the Numa and the KeyB were too much for me. This was blatantly evident after playing a nice '65 C3 with a 122 last night (the real deal).

 

C'mon, Jim... There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that the KeyB is inferior to the XK3c engine? Really????

 

I played the KeyB on several occasions, heard many videos of it... plus heard Joey D play it several times live. There really is no comparison.

 

Everyone says that the SK1 uses the XK3c engine (with tweaked leslie, CV, and overdrive (unfortunately)...

 

I guess I will just have to wait until I actually play one... I will go to my local Guitar Center when I get back from Las Palmas.

 

 

 

 

 

[kanker.]

The KeyB is the best sounding Hammond clone I have ever played. The KeyB organ engine completely blows the SK1/XK3c out of the water. And before anyone jumps on me, Yes, I have played both.

 

You have not played the SK1.

 

The feeling of disconnect with both the Numa and the KeyB were too much for me. This was blatantly evident after playing a nice '65 C3 with a 122 last night (the real deal).

 

C'mpn, Jim... There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that the KeyB is inferior to the XK3c engine? Really????

 

I played the KeyB on several occasions, heard many videos of it... plus heard Joey D play it several times live. There really is no comparison.

 

Everyone says that the SK1 uses the XK3c engine (with tweaked leslie, CV, and overdrive (unfortunately)... I Guess I will just have to wait until I actually play one... I will go to my local Guitar Center when I get back from Las Palmas.

 

 

 

 

I played a KeyB in 2009. At that point in time the XK3c blew the KeyB out of the water. There were a lot of things lacking in the KeyB. The 3c just sounded more 'alive' to me. Comparing an XK3c to a 2011 KeyB isn't really a fair comparison, but Graf said I'd have a hard time believing I'd find the KeyB to be better than the XK. Perhaps I would, but I doubt it.

[HammondDave]

 

 

 

There were a lot of things lacking in the KeyB.

 

Like...?????

[kanker.]

There were a lot of things lacking in the KeyB.

 

Like...?????

The leslie sim was weak, the percussion wasn't thick enough, the C/V didn't really talk, and the raw drawbar tone wasn't as good as the 3c. Granted I preferred it to the Nord sound, but compared to the 3c it just wasn't there. The 3c just had a lot more life to the sound.

[HammondDave]

 

 

There were a lot of things lacking in the KeyB.

 

Like...?????

The leslie sim was weak, the percussion wasn't thick enough, the C/V didn't really talk, and the raw drawbar tone wasn't as good as the 3c. Granted I preferred it to the Nord sound, but compared to the 3c it just wasn't there. The 3c just had a lot more life to the sound.

 

Man, you must have played a different organ than I did... The ergonomics were better, the CV was miles ahead, same for the key click, leslie sim, Percussion, and overdrive... and it Felt like a real b3... had the correct cross-talk, etc Loved it...

[kanker.]

I should add that I REALLY didn't like the switches for changing sets of drawbars.

[keyClicker]

There really is no comparison.

Man, this is strange...

Sometimes I really think I played a different organ than you did.

I also did play both of them... like you. They were side by side and I was using headphones (could that be the explanation? idk man, maybe)

The Numa really sounded great, but I also thought like kanker said that the Xk I played that time was better (and it was the Xk1!!!! :-O ).

That's why I think is so weird when you say that the Numa is SOOOOOOOOOOO much better. It's ok that you think the Numa is better then the Xks but, man... Im feeling confused!

Why couldn't I notice that difference? Damn...

I know by your posts and comments that we probably listen to pretty much the same recordings and that we are not young monkeys when it comes to tonewheel sound. So, that just cant be right.

 

 

 

take care!

[Jim Alfredson]

Very interesting thread. Inspired me to do some quick latency tests:

 

Korg BX3 (version 2): around 4ms

Nord Electro 3: slightly below 4ms

Moog Voyager OS: under 3ms (deep key contacts!)

Roland RD700NX: 6.5ms (deep key contacts and weighted action may add to latency).

 

I measured the delay between the start of the key noise and the start of the instrument sound (number of samples). The 'speed' of the Moog is evident and one of the strengths of this instrument.

 

 

Thank you for posting those results. I will compare my Voyager (though I have a regular Voyager, not the OS) and see if the results are similar. That way I'll know something isn't off.

 

I tested my C2, the C2 with a Ventilator, the XK3, the XK3 with it's internal sim, and the XK3 with the Ventilator yesterday. When I have time, I'll compile the results. As of now, however, I'll say that the Voyager appears to be even quicker than a real Hammond console!

 

As for the XK3c vs. the KeyB, Dave you said yourself that the Xk3c cuts really well. That's pretty much what I was missing with the Numa. The KeyB was better but that's because it was going through a really high-powered, custom Leslie with a ton of top rotor amplification behind it. The Numa probably would've sounded much better through that as well.

 

But all that aside, it doesn't really matter to me how good either the Numa or the KeyB sounds if both have such high latency. I could not get past the feeling of disconnect, the latency, especially when playing very rhythmic stuff. The KeyB was better but I think that's because it wasn't going through the internal Leslie sim, which my findings last night would suggest adds another 2 to 2.5ms of latency to the sound.

 

There also seemed to be a bit of latency between pulling out a drawbar and the sound changing; not much but enough to be noticeable.

[HammondDave]

It all depends on what type of music you are playing. The KeyB is the mostauthentic sounding clone (IMHO). The xk3c, although not as authentic, has a great mid tone sound that really punches through. However, when compared to the KeyB, the vibrato, overdrive, percussion, and Leslie sim is definitely a step below.

[KRK]

 

Comparing an XK3c to a 2011 KeyB isn't really a fair comparison, but Graf said I'd have a hard time believing I'd find the KeyB to be better than the XK. Perhaps I would, but I doubt it.

 

that's the point!

the 2011 KeyBDuo is THE same KeyBDuo I purchased in 2007!

with a really LITTLE cost, that KeyBduo has been upgraded to the mkII version (hardware + DSP).

and with NO cost I upgraded a lot of software new versions, over these years, till the current sound version.

 

YES, from 2007 to now it has definitely a different sound.

but it is the same machine I purchased in 2007!

 

(and for the Hamichord it is the same)

 

 

 

on the other side, the XK3 (and the XK3c) has no possibility to be upgraded. so you have to purchase a new instruments in case of any system improvement.

 

so, yes, IT IS a fair comparison, as who is purchasing a such important instrument has to be aware of this fact: the KeyBDUo (and the Hamichord) could install for free all the new software improvements for the next years, the XK3 not.

 

it is like having a new instruments at every software upgrade

 

 

as I'm not playing so much around during these last monts, and at home I only play my '64 C3 hammond, I recently sold my KeyBDuo at the same price I purchased it 4 years ago!!!!

that's a fact.

(maybe I'll take it again -mkIII version- in 2012, if my group will have a consistent number of concerts)

 

take care!

 

 

 

PS: about the latency on the KeyBDuo, the last info I had from the manufacturer was about 6ms

[Jim Alfredson]

I can't update my '58 B3. What a drag.

 

The latency of the XK3, by my measurements, is around 6.7ms. The KeyB and Numa were definitely slower than that, very noticeably.

 

I wish someone who owned a KeyB or Numa would do a latency test on it and post the results.

[KRK]

I can't update my '58 B3. What a drag.

 

 

the same for my '64 C3!

[LX88]

It looks like we are still on this latency issue.

 

I am not going to go out and buy some program just to test the Numa. But tonight I went back and played what amounted to single stroke rolls or fast trills on some individual notes.

 

I'll be damned but I would hear it and sense it with this test if it were that much of an issue. The keys and the notes respond to my touch precisely.

 

I am not defending it just because I own one. I probably had an experience similar to Hammond Dave when I first heard the Key B. I heard what I had been waiting to hear in a clone which was - good chorus vibrato and overall tone , and a leslie sim that sounded natural and not "phasey".

 

I made a mental note that I would sure like to have one and when the Numa came out in a light and afforable package, I was sold.

 

The ability to download the different organ sets is a huge advantage to me also. I have tried some of them but I kind of go back to the original set because I do like the top end to be less screamy. These days, taking care of my hearing is a priority.

 

I haven't been dissappointed in this board at all. I would change the way the internal EQing is, but since I can do that externally it is not a big deal.

 

I have played plenty of keyboards that didn't quite make it. The Numa is not one of them. It delivers a satisfying experience and it is all there in one board - including the overdrive, by the way.

 

My guess is that the single triggering point - which most clones have except the new B-3... may have more than a little to do with all of this. Of course that is going to be different than a tonewheel Hammond. I accept that it is going to be different and that the keys themselves are going to be different. And I live with it and go on.

 

 

[engineerjoel]

Just spent about 3 hours demo'ing the Numa and the only real beef I had with it was the Volume knob is located on the wrong side of the keyboard (IMO). I typically stand up while playing and don't really use Volume pedals. I rather have the volume knob located on the left side of the keyboard so to use my left hand to control the Volume and drawbars. Otherwise, loving the Leslie sim which has now got me wondering if I really need to keep my 147 or not.

[LX88]

The right hand volume knob was probably Joey De Francesco's idea....and was intended for players who play left hand lower manual bass.

 

The thing I love about the Numa leslie sim is the wide sound stage it can produce, and no I don't have any plans to drag along leslies anymore with a leslie sim this good.

[engineerjoel]

It is my understand that the Numa's rocker-lever controls both the speed (fast/slow) of the Leslie AND also the MODULATION control for external synths.

 

With this in mind....here's my question. When using the optional footswith to engage the leslie fast/slow, can the rocker-switch be Unassigned so to NOT engage the leslie fast/slow BUT instead ONLY be used to control the MODULATION of external MIDI'ed synths?

 

Please clarify. Thanks,

[Craig MacDonald]

It is my understand that the Numa's rocker-lever controls both the speed (fast/slow) of the Leslie AND also the MODULATION control for external synths.

 

With this in mind....here's my question. When using the optional footswith to engage the leslie fast/slow, can the rocker-switch be Unassigned so to NOT engage the leslie fast/slow BUT instead ONLY be used to control the MODULATION of external MIDI'ed synths?

 

Please clarify. Thanks,

 

I think the answer to your question is no, you cannot separate the leslie switching from the modwheel functions..

 

I had a Numa for about 30 days (but returned it) and when I had it I noticed a related problem... While using the NUMA as a controller to drive an external synth, I found it impossible to disconnect the sustain pedal from the leslie switch.. if I played organ on the NUMA while layering piano or EP from my external synth, I was unable to sustain the external synth without switching the leslie speed every time I pressed the sustain pedal.

 

I think that Studiologic have created this problem by simply cutting corners and not providing separate inputs for sustain pedal and external leslie switch. Similarly, but choosing to use the mod wheel for leslie switching rather than having a separate leslie speed switch it is impossible to separate modulation functions from the leslie switching.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

I can't update my '58 B3. What a drag.

 

The latency of the XK3, by my measurements, is around 6.7ms. The KeyB and Numa were definitely slower than that, very noticeably.

 

I wish someone who owned a KeyB or Numa would do a latency test on it and post the results.

 

I owned a NUMA for about 30 days, and while I didn't notice any perceptable latency/delay, I did notice that the percussion would not retrigger as quickly as I was used to with either my real B3 or my other clones (Nord C1/C2 and Korg BX3).. perhaps this was a result of this latency issue you are suggesting or simply a matter of how I perceived it?