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Do J Walsh, P Collins, P Barrere owe Sly Stone some $$$ ?


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Skin it Back was on the Feats Don't Fail Me Now album. That probably puts the tune around 1973 or 1974.

 

I don't know enough about Sly to know what predates what.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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The beginning riff is similar for the first half, but diverges wildly after that. The songs themselves don't sound similar at all.

 

Fresh came out in 1973.

 

Feats Don't Fail Me came out in 1974.

 

This is the better version:

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns9jGWiF8d0

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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If you really want to talk about Sly getting ripped, check out his Sex Machine while thinking about Rocky Mountain Way, or check out Hot fun in the Summertime, then Genesis' There Must Be Some Misunderstanding.....
A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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Yeah, well, Gershwin ripped off Anonymous, the author of Wayfaring Stranger.

 

Or was it the other way around?

 

In any case, it's up to the copyright holders to sue or not, and then up to the courts to decide. In this case, it's more of a "meh". Funk groove with a phrase in common -- happens all the time. After all, there are only so many notes. ;-)

 

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If you really want to talk about Sly getting ripped, check out his Sex Machine while thinking about Rocky Mountain Way, or check out Hot fun in the Summertime, then Genesis' There Must Be Some Misunderstanding.....

 

You know, I've noticed that "Hot Fun" cop before but forgotten it; thanks for reminding me !

 

The other I'll check, but let me mention that what brought this to my late attention is reading the recent I Want To Take You Higher by Jeff Kaliss, noted California writer, who actually managed to interview Sly.

He mentions that Miles Davis used "I Time" as a syncopation training piece for players in his later bands.

 

The fact is that, because of certain not uncommon failings, Sly's been largely forgotten but he was one of the most far-seeing and innovative practitioners of pop/rock music.

 

Sly and the Family Stone, elevating the 1960s high enough that they could see and hear the PFunk, Stevie Wonder and, further along, Prince and hip-hop yet to come.

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If the information dispensed on another thread has any veracity, we should just leave well enough alone because that money would just be owed or spent to/with a drug dealer. And that would be ENABLING.
Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me.
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Just noted to myself last week that the most engaging CD I had put into my player over the past month was the new-ish Sly collection "Playlist. . . " the best-selected/best-sequenced single-disc Sly greatest hits.

 

Over the years I've wondered a bit about "groove overlap" between Sly tunes like "Thank You. . ." and "Sing a Simple Song" and what we now now as the prototype Meters grooves of '69-'70

"The Doomer allows the player to do things beyond which are possible without the accessory."
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If the information dispensed on another thread has any veracity, we should just leave well enough alone because that money would just be owed or spent to/with a drug dealer. And that would be ENABLING.

 

While my intent here is not so much to generate income for Sly as to remind how influential he's been as a musician/cpmposer, it's also worth pointing out a couple relevant things about this subject.

If we're eliminatitng musicans because of their personal proclivities such figures as Miles Davis and a long list would be out the window.

Further, and more to the point, the suggestion quoted above is nothing more than a misguided rumor.

Undeniably Sly had (maybe has) substance abuse issues but it's a matter blown far out of proportion to the facts.

 

Beyond that the idea that he was ever a dealer is absurd.

The cat had people throwing drugs at him just to be close to him, not the other way around.

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... The cat had people throwing drugs at him just to be close to him, not the other way around.

 

I had cats throw drugs at me for years but I never used them. I saw what that **** did to others and had sense enough to leave it alone. I never understood the relationship between dope and music. I guess you have to be a user to understand. ... though I am a pretty heavy Ibuprofen and Asprin user.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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CEB, Of course Sly had options not to become as frazzled as he's known to have become.

Just as you or anyone else does.

The whole subject of personal behavior's a bit off track here, though, and the only reason I responded to the allegation of Sly being a drug dealer was to point toward its absurdity.

 

What's relevant here is that he was/is one of the most innovative performers and writers in modern pop music.

Through a combination of his own mistakes and the rumors that many continue to hurl around as though they are facts, that has become obscured.

 

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Every now and then, the sky opens up and folks come along with the abiilty to add another wrinkle to the game musically. Sly Stone and Miles Davis were such spirits. Of course, musicians past and present borrow/steal from them. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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My idea here is not just to point fingers at those who've "borrowed" from Sly but to remind what a great wrinkle he put into the fabric of popular music, not just with the make-up of his band (the direct embodiment of many of the social ideas of that time) but the fact that his influence as a composer has been almost forgotten, even while many have picked over his material and given him no credit at all.

 

To what degree is it ethical, or even professional, to do that (in this case or others)?

What, other than Sly's personal foibles (which have been both exaggerated and even at times invented), has caused this neglect?

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I think Sly is neglected today because he withdrew from the music business, burning a lot of bridges.

 

If he would put the Family Stone back together and tour, a whole new generation of fans might be attracted.

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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IMO, Sly isn't neglected or forgotten as evidenced by his influence on a future generation of musicians. Unfortunately, the style of music he pioneered does not lend itself to continued relevance and/or career longevity. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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If he would put the Family Stone back together and tour, a whole new generation of fans might be attracted.

 

He did. The results have been

 

Not to take anything away from what he contributed in his prime, which was immense. But for some people, staying retired is the better option -- for them, and for the rest of the planet. From all evidence I've seen, Sly is very much in that category.

 

On the other hand "The Original Family Stone" (conspicuously minus their leader) sounds

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Artistic disintegration, bad shows etc definitely tarnished his legacy, but I think the main reason he isn't given as much respect as he is due is the fact that he was best known as a singles artist, in an era where the artistic headlines began to be grabbed by "album artists." Same fate as the Hollies and a few other fine pop artists of that time period.
"The Doomer allows the player to do things beyond which are possible without the accessory."
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"Artistic disintegration" is a misapplied idea here, I think.

As Sly and the Family Stone's career progressed, the focus of the songs actually got sharper, as did the production and presentation.

I think this idea stems more from the perceived turn from positive pop material toward grittier and quirkier fare with the Riot Goin' On album...though even it had several very uplifting songs ("Family Affair", "Runnin' Away", both of which deal with the value and sanctuary of families) and some really innovative material ("Time") and even comic stuff ("

").

Then there was his withdrawal, partly for business reasons, partly personal, but a legitimate problem.

I'd point out that during this time of "disintegration" he regularly worked on material with Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock.

 

"Bad shows" might be better described as no shows or late shows, although that was sometimes a flaw with many other performers (Rolling Stoens 1969 never did a show on time; Miles Davis' onstage attitude ranged from diffident to snarly).

Till their breakup, I can find no record of an actual bad performance.

 

I mean to be clear: after about 1971 Sly Stone has hardly been a model for marketing PR and he definitely has had some personal flaws but I think many of the stock criticisms of him have been a lazy way to disregard a musican who championed some ideas, both social and within the music business, that may not have been popular with everyone.

 

As far as him being a "singles artist", again that's a mimsperceprtion.

Most of his albums were accompanied by one concurrent single.

We may remember it differently because so much of his output got radio play. The singles were often double-sided hits and much album material was pulled for broadcast in those more free-form days of programming.

You might as well call the Beatles a singles band.

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@George: Your comments put us in almost total agreement.

 

Artistic disintegration follows Riot Goin' On, which I think was his best album, and Fresh, which IMHO was good but not quite as good as Riot. (Family Affair, Smilin' and Runnin' Away are brilliant.) After Fresh, well. . .not so fresh. (The loss of Larry Graham was no help, though adding Andy Newmark was a positive. . .if only those two could have worked together with Sly for 4-5 years. Yikes!!) As for Miles and Herbie, Sly clearly influenced the hell out of both of them (and Stevie Wonder, Rick James, Prince etc etc.) but I don't recall any fully realized colloborations.

 

Bad shows to me, mean no-shows, late shows or short shows, which were more and more common over time. (I once heard, but never saw, that the band had a set rehearsed that worked without Sly. Maybe it was good.) And post-breakup, what attempts he made to return to live performance got brutal press, rightly or wrongly.

 

Re: "singles artist" we agree. . .this was a misconception. But it was a dominant perception, especially outside California. His LP tracks got more play in CA, and particularly in the midwest, black artists did not get much attention from the nascent album and underground rock stations. And unfortunately, misperception can equal reality. As for the Beatles, for many people, they were a singles band, until Sgt. Pepper.

"The Doomer allows the player to do things beyond which are possible without the accessory."
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"As for Miles and Herbie, Sly clearly influenced the hell out of both of them (and Stevie Wonder, Rick James, Prince etc etc.) but I don't recall any fully realized colloborations."

 

According to reliable sources HH was a player on the RIOT album (and maybe later).

Miles, it's said, never recorded with Sly but they played together often.

Personally, I've always suspected that the trumpet line in "Family Affair" was him, or taken from an idea he had.

 

I won't belabor the point further but I still think that what many think of as Sly's artistic disintegration coincide strangely with his development of different ideas about what he'd like to do and how to do it.

That's not all there is to it but I think it's a large part.

 

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  • 1 month later...
Family Stone IS still together; just without Sly. Or at least that's how I remember it. Maybe under a different name, but I occasionally run into some of those guys as they're on the same circuit and/or are friends of people I play with so show up for gigs, jams, or whatever. They're all really nice people.

Eugenio Upright, 60th P-Bass, Geddy Lee J-Bass, Hofner HCT-500/7, Yamaha BBP35, Viking Bari

Select Strat, Select Tele, Am Pro JM, LP 57 Gold, G5422DC-12, T486, ES295, PM2, EXL1

XK1c, Voyager, Prophet XL

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Yeah, it's hard to keep track, when a band has been around so long and had so many players. A lot of the TOP players drop in unexpectedly on local shows as well, sometimes sitting in (who would deny them?). Hasn't happened to me yet, but there's a high chance it will due to the circles I'm in. Fingers crossed!

 

Can't remember if TOP and Sly ever traded players, but of course Santana has used a couple of TOP personnel over the years. My previous housemate was close friends with the current bassist for Family Stone or whatever they call themselves now. I met him a couple of times and he could play rings around most people.

Eugenio Upright, 60th P-Bass, Geddy Lee J-Bass, Hofner HCT-500/7, Yamaha BBP35, Viking Bari

Select Strat, Select Tele, Am Pro JM, LP 57 Gold, G5422DC-12, T486, ES295, PM2, EXL1

XK1c, Voyager, Prophet XL

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