Tuning machine questions

[J. Dan]

What are the real differences in tuning machines, and are they significant?

 

I play out with an epiphone explorer. I already replaced the pickups. Tuning, I've noticed some variability. Meaning depending on the tuner, there can be som play, or dead zones, at times. In the process world we call this hysteresis. Meaning you have to go a certain amount before there's any change, thenit's too much, and then you go back. I've always worked with it, but wonder if better tuning machines would make a difference.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Yes.

[picker]

There are tuning machines and then there are tuning machines. The hysteresis you are noticing is due to too much play between the worm gear and the teeth of the gear attached to the tuning peg. In short, the gears don't fit tightly together, so there is a bit of movement before the two gears actually engage. If you look at what's available, you'll see that you can find tuners with higher and lower gear ratios, and the higher ratios facilitate finer tuning.

 

Epiphone cuts costs by using cheaper components, such as tuning machines. Get yourself a good set of Schallers to replace the ones you have, and you'll be very pleased with the results.

[Bartholomew]

I have an Epiphone SG that ships with Grover tuning keys which are not as good as the gold Grovers on my 74 Les Paul Custom.

 

Also have a vintage telecaster that has Schallers from way back which I recently cleaned out and lubed sparingly with automatic transmision fluid. Made a huge difference - I also use the tranny fluid on bike chains. Doesn't gum up like light machine oil and is made for gears.

 

Cleaning and oiling may help you if the problem is due to sticking but cheap keys are the first thing I change then pick-ups. Plus most tuning problems are caused by the nut being too tight for each individual string.

[Caevan O'Shite]

TonePros "Kluson by TonePros" (standard/vintage style OR locking) and Grovers are excellent choices for an Epiphone Les Paul, and either will look traditional for a Les Paul; just be sure to get some that will fit YOUR guitar, or have the through-holes carefully hand-reamed or fitted with conversion bushings as required. It may well be worth it to pay a qualified, experienced, well-equipped pro luthier/repairer to install 'em, too- it's much easier than you might think to TOTALLY mess-up a headstock with a drifting, chattering drill-bit... !!

[pinkjimiphoton]

i've found grovers to always have issues, klusons, too...

i like schallers, hell, even pings on some cases...if ya tighten the screw on the tuner knob, it can help a lot.

another issue is how ya put your strings on. if ya do it right, tuning shouldn't be an issue. for me, and i'm sure some will disagree, only one way really seems to work..this is how i teach peeps to do it...your mileage may vary:

 

make sure the holes in the tuners are perpendicular to the neck.

 

put the string thru the hole.

 

wrap it once UNDER the string, always towards the center of the headstock.

 

pull it straight up, and start tuning.

 

as soon as it starts to wrap, it will lock the string to the post with the string itself.

 

bend the string back over the top, and finish tuning.

 

clip the excess off, and tug the string a couple times along it's length.

 

re tune until it holds pitch.

 

i've tried alot of ways to do this in the last 42 years, and to me, this is the best, and quickest way to do it...even stock cheap ass tuners seem to work better in my experience.

 

one other trick that helps at the other end is to melt a bead of solder around the string wrapping at the ball end.

 

try it...and let me know if you have more tuning stability.

i bet you do.

 

alot of people put it thru the tuner, and wind a bunch of turns on...to me, those guitars never stay in tune...too much slop in all those windings. i rarely use more than one or two wraps total the way i do it.

 

but like i said, some may feel different...what works for me may not work for you!

peace

 

[Guitarzan]

what Jimi said.

 

also as mentioned make sure that nut is cut correctly and there is no slop in the bridge. anything that moves will mess up your tuning stability.

[pinkjimiphoton]

thanks guitarzan. i see so many peeps tell me their guitars won't stay in tune, they buy new bridges and tuners and nuts, and all they need to do is re-string correctly...

and + 1,000,000 on the nut..a little bit of graphite can go a long way, as can "hourglassing" the tuner side of the nut a little bit.

 

i use a mix of radio shack techlube (with teflon) and powdered graphite on my guitars with wang bars, it really seems to help...

the key of course in using that stuff is minimalism.

[Guitarzan]

you speak the truth. i jam with guys who don't seem to hear their guitar isn't in tune.

about the only tuner i have seen that refuses to hold tuning if following proper stringing is those super cheap, sloppy, installed on a plywood garbage guitar no name stamped metal covered tuners.

a lot of dudes don't stretch those strings or wind them careful enough.

i use a dab of Vaseline and graphite powder to concoct my own "snot"

but now that is behind me as my main squeeze is floyd loaded.

[pinkjimiphoton]

i don't even use a floyd, tell ya what bro, if ya deal with friction and string right, a stock bog-standard strat trem will work great!

 

even them totally cheap-ass "stamped" plywood guitar tuners will work better if ya string them right...i mean, can make an amazing difference!

 

 

[desertbluesman]

I got to like Shallers (or however you spell them) way back in the early days of my playing so when I buy machine heads for an instrument, I buy Shallers. However I have a Gibson SG Faded with the cheapo Klusons and I can get it in tune and it stays in tune, and I have several other cheapo guitars an Ibanez and an Agile with whatever tuners came with them and I can get them in tune and they stay in tune as well. Only one of my guitars has a Tremolo on it and I have that blocked solid because I don't like to spend a lot of time tuning, and retuning. I can get all of my guitars in tune perfectly (according to my tuner) and they stay in tune sometimes for days.

[J. Dan]

It actually STAYS in tune pretty well. It's just WHILE tuning, that it seems to be kind of jittery - hard to get it to go smoothly from wherever it is, to tuned without sort of jumping around. I always give them a good tug, especially when tuning down if they are sharp, until it's flat, then tune back up. Usually it works well, but sometimes it'll almost seem like it kind of sticks and then overshoots as I'm tuning Could be the nut, as some of you have mentioned as well. But I have noticed more play in some of the tuning machines than others.

[desertbluesman]

Put powdered graphite in the nut slots and see if that works.

[pinkjimiphoton]

It actually STAYS in tune pretty well. It's just WHILE tuning, that it seems to be kind of jittery - hard to get it to go smoothly from wherever it is, to tuned without sort of jumping around. I always give them a good tug, especially when tuning down if they are sharp, until it's flat, then tune back up. Usually it works well, but sometimes it'll almost seem like it kind of sticks and then overshoots as I'm tuning Could be the nut, as some of you have mentioned as well. But I have noticed more play in some of the tuning machines than others.

 

if they are grovers, or grover copies and they are doing that,

you can TRY to tighten the tuning keys themselves...

but usually that means the gearing inside is either breaking or broken down. do yourself a favor, and replace..

in my experience, schallers are way more stable than grovers.

good luck, mate!

[Caevan O'Shite]

I know what 80s-LZ is talking about, it IS the tuners, cheaper ones with inferior precision in the manufacturing of their gears; this gives a wonky out-of-wack feeling when tuning, it's the gears, not string slipping or catching or any of that. Better tuners just feel smoother and tighter.

 

i've found grovers to always have issues, klusons, too...

 

Note that I typed TonePros "Kluson by TonePros"- they're Kluson style/branded tuners licensed to be made by Tone Pros, who improved the quality and the turn-ratio; they're a DEFINITE cut above in quality, and they look completely stock and vintage-original; you can even get 'em with the '50s style press-in bushings that look like stock vintage Klusons on the outside while being sealed designs internally; or yuo can get the later style with the hex-nut; or even a locking version.

 

Here ya go:

 

Kluson by TonePros Info

 

The Kluson by TonePros line

[pinkjimiphoton]

nice! i'll try a set on this bastardized old kay i'm gonna restore someday!

thanks for the headsup, kev!

[Tennessee]

As a boutique builder of custom guitars, obviously the first and foremost thing is to pay attention to the string wrap and nut grove sizes, as stated well in some of the posts above.

That being said, I have used a number of different types of tuners, and finally did some basic research on why the gear lash exists at all. I just tore apart a lot of tuners...

There are two basic reasons I found.

One is when you have a brass gear on the peg and a steel key post. Since all these are basically stamped out, the machinery for the brass is different than the steel, and some dimensional creep can exist. I have found that when you use steel against steel, you get less lash, and it works better. Additionally, a lightweight grease, assuming you can get it into the tuner, is a good thing. Also tightening the screw on the end of the key. I will not use tuners with brass gears on the posts anymore. Too much play.

The second thing, and much worse, is the fold-over steel type of tuners that holds the key stem on the traditional square tuners. This is a design disaster and can work up, allowing for a lot of lash. Avoid these kinds of tuners. If the steel is bound all the way around, you are OK, but the cheap Chinese ones are just kind of clamped over the top of the stem and don't work well at all. When you build for someone else, you have to pay attention to the big three - nut, wound string, tuner. Keeping all this carefully in good order, and you really don't need to worry much about graphite. I believe that is a crutch for someone who changed string diameter and didn't pay attention to the slot in the nut. Also, those guitars that really change the direction of the string when coming through the nut are asking for problems. I try to make mine so the strings come through as straight as possible. No string trees for me. As usual, all this is IMHO.

Thanks!

[pinkjimiphoton]

righteous bro!