Breakthrough!

[5 string Mike]

Rehearsal on the Friday before last was a hoot, however it was unbearably loud. So after dozens of times before where it was too loud and no one seemed to care, the band leader decided to lay it down before practice on Friday that we HAVE to turn down- it was painful, yadda yadda.

 

The irony was, he looked right at me most of the time. I thought it was funny, because I was always the one getting drowned out- so after I show up with a new rig, all of a sudden we're too loud. Granted, I stretched the new rig's legs out pretty well, but fighting fire with fire seemed to get the point across- at least for now.

 

So last Friday was a good rehearsal- no one's ears bled after practice and no headaches. We really do sound better when we are quieter. I even ran the BL600 and 4x10 on it's own, didn't even have it halfway up and it carried the bottom real well.

 

So chalk one up for fighting fire with fire

[b5pilot]

Good to hear. I can't understand why people would want to rehease at full blast. And in probably a smallish room. Just silly in my opinion.

[picker]

Sometimes, you just gotta find that Brown Note before folks will listen to ya...

[Imogene]

We really do sound better when we are quieter....

 

In bands that rehearse at such loud levels as you've described - individual players just aren't listening to each other, or to the overall sound of the band. My time has always been wasted in such an environment.

[Griffinator]

Sometimes, you just gotta find that Brown Note before folks will listen to ya...

 

Pfffft. The Brown Note is appropo for ALL situations, and should never be used as a threat. If they ain't poopin', you ain't playin'.

[Griffinator]

We really do sound better when we are quieter....

 

In bands that rehearse at such loud levels as you've described - individual players just aren't listening to each other, or to the overall sound of the band. My time has always been wasted in such an environment.

 

I dispute this notion.

 

The band I'm working with right now (fun for me - I'm handling all the guitar chores and I'm helping along a green bassist) includes a rather loud drummer in rather tight quarters. That drummer and I, however, have been working together on and off for well over a decade - and we have long since learned how to communicate with nods and other visual cues. We pay close attention to each other and everyone else in the room and what everyone is doing.

 

It's not impossible, it just can't be done with words.

[5 string Mike]

We just don't have that kind of history, Griff. It is better- people are paying more attention to visual cues and stuff, timing and all is ok.

 

The band is slowly getting to the point of listening to each other. That is hard to do when your amp is dimed and pointed right at your head. They are starting to figure out that lower volumes where we can hear each other makes us tighter. It'll get there...someday...I hope...

[EddiePlaysBass]

The band is slowly getting to the point of listening to each other.

 

Yeah same with the blues band - they realised last rehearsal that during our rendition of Shotgun Blues (Kenny Wayne Shepherd, not G'n'R) that under the first solo I play a completely different rhythm. This is the way the song goes and no one said anything about it so I figured they liked it - we have even done this song live during a jam. But last rehearsal they all seemed to finally notice what I was doing, and told me not to

 

The drummer and I constantly watch each other, and give off visual cues. I also just mailed the guitarist about a song where he never nails the break, that I will raise my bass or whatever so he can SEE the changes coming. This is a team effort so we all have to work together

[Griffinator]

The drummer and I constantly watch each other, and give off visual cues. I also just mailed the guitarist about a song where he never nails the break, that I will raise my bass or whatever so he can SEE the changes coming. This is a team effort so we all have to work together

 

 

Exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone should be in the habit of giving and watching for visual cues with other members. When you're on stage, you can't yell for the break - but doing a goofy little head bob or other rock "performance" cliches are perfectly acceptable visual cues that can make a performance via silent communication.

[5 string Mike]

... This is a team effort so we all have to work together

 

I thought we were just there to make the diva singers and guitar stars look good. Work together? As a team? So the whole band sounds like they know what they are doing? You mean that works????

 

Honestly, on this tour of duty, it is getting better. We picked up a couple new songs pretty quick compared to what I remember, things went a lot smoother and there is a lot more interaction between each other. There is still hope

[SteveC]

There just isn't any reason for a loud rehearsal. They are ALWAYS better when you can talk and be heard over the instruments.

 

Rehearsal volume and stage volume are two things that drive me crazy. It simply isn't necessary.

 

If you can't groove or get into it or whatever the excuse is at a decent level, you aren't going to be any better at ridiculous levels.

[Imogene]

I've always viewed power, from a bass player perspective - as TONE. Not as ammo against an aggressive guitar or other loud instrument. The more watts, the happier you'll be as a bass player because to me, watts present your tone. You control the dynamics. If you're fighting another player's volume to hear yourself onstage or in rehearsal, you have other problems. This has been my experience.

[Bottom End]

IMO, rehearsal volume should be loud enough to hear each other.

 

In my previous career, I liked the idea of developing in a "crawl, walk, run" mode. Lay down a solid and stable foundation and strneghtening in the crawl phase, leads to walking together, leads to runnning together. Depending on the abilities of the musicians (and atitudes) those pahases can move pretty quickly, but ignoring them leads to frustration and lack of coherence, IMO. Once you are running, together, you can bring up the volume and get yer ya-yas out in preparation for performance.

 

Griff and his drummer can run together, they're tight and the Bass player will have to hang on, and be better for it. But it's only a trio, right? The more instruments, or more complex the music, combined with a newer group playing together, means you start in crawl, and go forward from there.

[The Bear Jew]

If the consensus among band members is that playing loudly at rehearsal is agreeable, there's nothing wrong with it. I like rehearsing really loudly. It's fun, and it feels good. Nobody in the band complains because we're all playing at kooky volume. But we're also balanced--we're equally obnoxiously loud. I think that is the key. We don't have volume wars with each other... we just have volume wars with anything that has eardrums within 10-block radius.

 

Also, I really hate visual cues. Personally, I think they're lame. In my opinion, it's best for everyone in the band to know the songs well enough that you don't have to look at each other to cue different sections. To me, that's why you do rehearsals--so that you can get the material performance-ready. Nobody should have to cue anyone else.

[Griffinator]

When you write the songs together, Erik, it's a different story.

 

When you're trying to quick-learn 50 songs to go out and play a cover gig in 3 weeks, a little help from your friends helps.

[TimR]

The problem with rehearsing at "too loud volume" is that when you get to a gig, you will want to play at the same "too loud volume" and if you have to play quieter because either; your gear can't supply the power the larger space needs, or the client keeps telling you to turn down, you are going to have problems.

 

What is gig volume? Rehearsal volume is pretty easy to set as you're in the same space each time. Gig volume is a complete unknown and will be different on stage to out front.

[5 string Mike]

I agree that if everyone's loud and everyone is agreeable (and still playing it right) then whatever trips your trigger.

 

As far as overall volume, we could have as many as 4 (yes 4) guitar players plus keys plus bongos, drums and bass, plus singers using percussion stuff like tambourines, all going at once. That is just near impossible to avoid a wall of mud.

 

We have-

 

Player One- Rhythm guitarist- plays rhythm except for a few songs like Fortunate One- he does the lead stuff there. He's also the band leader.

 

Player Two- Lead guitar, harp, background vocals on a few songs

 

Player Three- Lead guitar, swaps on keys with Player Four, plays bongos on a couple of songs, sings screamo backup on a couple songs

 

Player Four- keys, swaps guitar with Player Three on a few songs

 

Player Five- Drums, tries to sing backup on a few songs

 

Player Six- Me- bass, sing one verse on The Weight, expanding into more backup and harmony singing

 

Singer One- female, sings, tambourine,

 

Singer Two- male, lower baritone voice, plays percussive stuff, tries hard to play rhythm guitar. Could be good, has a nice Martin 12-string acoustic-electric, thinks that a dimed chorus effect "fills out the sound" (he got a strat- same logic, same issue, just louder). Problem is, no one's been able to convince him otherwise. On top of that, he's pretty high on the food chain and gets the band opportunities at high-profile functions, no one really wants to be brutally honest and get on is bad side.

 

So, that's the big part of the volume issue. There is just no easy way that much stuff can be independently loud and still sound organized. Even when we are dialed back, it's still hard to have any level of dynamics or balance. Player Two and Player Three can't make practice quite often due to travel and other commitments- with less people, it goes so much better. It's not that they are the problem, but everyone else has a little more room to stretch out.

 

It's just going to be an on-going struggle to fit into our narrow little pockets and have balance.

[The Bear Jew]

Mike... Sounds like an absolute nightmare. This is why I'm so glad to be in a trio.

 

Griff... In a case like that, yeah. Rough deal. Good luck with that.

 

Tim... Again, makes me glad to be a member of a trio that plays in a genre where "too-loudness" is greatly appreciated at gigs.

[Richard W]

Also, I really hate visual cues. Personally, I think they're lame. In my opinion, it's best for everyone in the band to know the songs well enough that you don't have to look at each other to cue different sections. To me, that's why you do rehearsals--so that you can get the material performance-ready. Nobody should have to cue anyone else.

 

Wow, really? I agree, the purpose of rehearsal is for everyone to learn the songs well enough to know breaks, solos, endings, etc, but I still think sharing visual cues with your band mates during a performance is hugely important. Not only does it help insure everyone's on the same page, so to speak, but I think communicates to the audience that you are working together as a team to create something that can't be created by just individual players standing there playing by themselves.

 

I know I'm veering OT here a little bit. Sorry.

[Griffinator]

Griff... In a case like that, yeah. Rough deal. Good luck with that.

 

Pretty much have to do it like that. Local musicians here have terminal ADD and the only way to get them focused and motivated to learn material is to book a show and FORCE them to get their noses to the grindstone.

[The Bear Jew]

There is a difference between eye contact as stage presence and visually cuing band mates. The first kind is fine by me, but the second shouldn't be necessary when everyone is on top of their game.

 

I make eye contact with my band mates all the time when we play, but I do it for fun. I don't need to make sure we're all on the same page--we do enough pre-game prep that we know we're on the same page as soon as we are on stage.

 

But I really wouldn't want to be required to inform the drummer or bassist that there's some change coming up in the music. And vice-versa--I don't want to be in a position where I'm depending on someone else to tell me what comes next in a song. This might be necessary at an early stage in the learning process (or in Griff's situation), but, after a certain point, I think it's corny when someone in the band is dependent on someone else's cue to nail a change.

[Imogene]

Also, I really hate visual cues. Personally, I think they're lame. In my opinion, it's best for everyone in the band to know the songs well enough that you don't have to look at each other to cue different sections. To me, that's why you do rehearsals--so that you can get the material performance-ready. Nobody should have to cue anyone else.

 

Perhaps you've never played in a band where they don't do things the same way every night? I depend on any cue that I can get to make sure that I nail the changes. Because if I don't, its a trainwreck even when I'm right. So, personally, I don't think them lame, but rather crucial. If you're so crazy loud that you can't hear your bandmates and follow/lead? It can be a mess. I play unrehearsed material on any given night on the whim of the band leader. Cues, visual or otherwise, are my best friend in those circumstances. If I can hear my bandmates, and they can hear me? All the better. Especially if they're listening.

[The Bear Jew]

I never play anything onstage that hasn't been rehearsed, so it's a non-issue for me... I can look at my band mates or not look, but I don't need visual cues, and neither do they. Again, that's why we rehearse--to make sure the songs are delivered in a consistent, confident manner.

 

If your arrangements change from night to night, I guess you need to do something to keep things in order, so... go for it. In your case, visual cues are essential. Personally, I'd hate that. I don't like not knowing what comes next or depending on someone else (who might not know what's going on) for the next cue.

[picker]

I see a few visual cues inTHIS ONE, and it's anything but lame to me...

[The Bear Jew]

Musically, it's great, visually... not so much.

[rickeymoses]

Many moons ago - I played in a power trio

But we felt versatile enough to cover songs from ballad groups to Hendrix

That said - We would rehearse all the songs at lower volumes

Once we had the songs down - we would then play with the dynamics

Ballads needed less volume - so no problem

Loud songs needed to be rehearsed loud

This would give us the headroom (to key in the tones)

so we could pull off the song

The drummer would go from wrist playing to more with the arms

guitar could check things like feedback (remember that)

I could power up and add treble to cut through and fill the sound

[b5pilot]

Perhaps you've never played in a band where they don't do things the same way every night? I depend on any cue that I can get to make sure that I nail the changes. Because if I don't, its a trainwreck even when I'm right. So, personally, I don't think them lame, but rather crucial. If you're so crazy loud that you can't hear your bandmates and follow/lead? It can be a mess. I play unrehearsed material on any given night on the whim of the band leader. Cues, visual or otherwise, are my best friend in those circumstances. If I can hear my bandmates, and they can hear me? All the better. Especially if they're listening.

 

This pretty closely describes our band also. We have no fixed set lists and we are at the whim of the guitard/band leader who calls out or jumps into songs and may extend a lead depending on whether he thinks the crowd is into it. And we rarely if ever rehearse. So mostly though we rely on sound cues like a certain lick comes up telling of a change or he starts a song with a little intro and we better be sharp and be paying attention. Or it's train wreck time. So obviously at least for us if the stage volume is too loud to where it's garbled or all you can hear is yourself that can be a problem finding those cues.

 

We occasionally also use visual cues for stuff like drum crashes and the like. Communication of some form, no matter how many in the band from a duet to a orchestra, is always key to having a smooth night. In my opinion.

 

Unless of course you do the same things the same way in the same sequence every gig. And do those shows or rehearse frequently so no one forgets. Then I guess it is second nature and you wouldn't need any cues.

[Imogene]

Im playing with a R&B/soul/pop show band. Old school all the way. Most fun I've ever had onstage. There are three front showmen/showomen, who will take the band in different directions depending on their interpretation of the crowd's interest. Its very spontaneous and they play it up to the max - they are very good at what they do. I'm the bass player. I have to pay attention, sometimes cues are subtle, other times not so much. Its exhilarating. I also play in rehearsed projects and while I understand you can concentrate on how you look, Ive learned that its much more important to me how I sound. BTW, I look FANTASTIC! And volume is controlled, my bass is very prominent in the overall mix whether live or rehearsal, I can hear everyone else, and they can hear everyone else.

 

Ive fought for sonic space with loud rock bands and it was more about individuals trying to stand out and not so much about the quality of the band. I never liked that, surely many of you who have spent much time playing with other players know what Im talking about.

 

[jeremy c]

I play with different people all the time and nothing is ever rehearsed. I'd rather do that WAY more than play the same songs the same way every night. I've done that and after a while it gets really, really old.

[The Bear Jew]

You're really, really old.