maxtheaxe Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I think I saw some reference to this recently in GP, but I just wanted to reiterate. I hope there are some drummers reading this as well... Drummers, please please PLEASE stop using your cymbals and a loose high hat to fill every percieved gap in the music! Why is it that many (most?) drummers feel that they must take up EVERY BIT of sonic real estate when they play? It is a rare drummer indeed who actually plays MUSIC when they work with an ensemble. Its all about dynamics...the band is not there to back up the drummer, guys.
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 +1 and some fuggin' dynamics beyond sforzando on everything would be nice, too.. http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
Gruupi Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I love a good drummer as much as the next guy, but I have lost my desire to play in bands partly because of this reason. Any subtleties in tone or dynamics are drowned out by drums, and over the last 15 years bass players fill a much larger hole as well. You now go to 100 seat clubs where they mic the drums. You can probably blame the guitar players as much as anyone though. We got to where we had to crank 50-100 watt amps to "get our tone". It's no wonder everyone else wanted to get louder too. The guitar players were too loud 40 years ago and everyone complained, but the guitarists didn't back down, so everyone else just got louder as well. I notice it more and more since I started playing mostly classical guitar 5 or so years ago. I was becoming more and more interested in subtleties and dynamics and even with a sensitive drummer, most things were just buried. I'd rather just jam at someone's house with unplugged acoustics. Luckily my hearing was perserved through my rock band years. I went to a club recently where a friends band was playing, they were loud but kept things in check. But the stupid DJ between sets played the music so loud it hurt, it was quite a bit louder than the band. You could tell everyone in the club was hanging out with a group of friends, so it was most annoying that no one was able to talk. So to the original post, yes most drummers try to fill every bit of sonic space, but so does just about every other amatuer musician. It takes a real group of pros to sit down and talk about how to make the overall band sound good. If you ever read the drum, bass, and keyboard forums, you will undoubtedy come across a thread on how guitar players are too loud and try and fill every space. My soundclick site: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=397188 My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/gruupi
A String Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 That's the difference between a "drummer" and someone who plays the drums. Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music
Griffinator Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 If you ever read the drum, bass, and keyboard forums, you will undoubtedy come across a thread on how guitar players are too loud and try and fill every space. Can confirm this. Keys players hate guitarists by and large because they step on everyone else's space, hog the spotlight (taking leads that don't belong to them, taking too long to play the leads they're supposed to...) As a multi-guy, I know where everyone is coming from, so I take extra care to respect everyone else's space. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends.
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 my beef is 900db endless cymbal crashes, right in my bloody ear... i actually prefer them electronic kits in some ways, as at least some dynamic control will happen. loud drummers tend to drive inexperienced guitar players to crank up louder, and to the point where there is ZERO tone...just shrill, crackly dreck. it's annoying as hell to listen to, let alone play with. we guitar players don't need to be any louder than we need to be to get feedback assisted sustain, and can excercise some control over the dynamic range of the music.. but too many crank up their latest aquisitions to the point of component failure, thinking it "sounds good"... well, to me, loud only sounds good if it's TONEFUL...if you sound like poo and the music can't breathe, that's definitely not what you want. i played with some cats last nite for the "grand opening" of my friend's studio, and man.... i mean, it was fuggin' painful....it started off fine...then the other guitarist reached over and cranked his crappy sounding pod pos up to the brittle max...and the drummer followed, and that's where they stayed the rest of the nite. it sucked. what did i do? yep. i cranked my cyberdeluxe up from it's sweet spot at about 5.5 to about 8...for a couple tunes... then let someone else play, cuz i was fed up...so i sat on my ass and played keyboards for a while before being driven out of the room. again. when "toneboy" finally broke a string, i went back in with my old drummer and played the immigrant song and voodoo chile slight return with just a trio...all was well... till mr. tone decides to join in with myriad missplaced van halenisms and hyperspeed icepicks. somehow got thru it... and then mr. basher had to get back on the skins. i duffed shortly thereafter...sorry for the rant, but i see this shit all the time... loud does not equate to tone, or even necessary. i'm a loud guitar player...believe me, i am....but tho i go up, i also go down. chalk it up to the inexperience of some cats, and move on. life is to short to waste making noise with poseurs...there's REAL musicians out there, ya just gotta look. peace http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
picker Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I worked for a while with a drummer who had a huge crash ride cymbal I wanted to call an airstrike in on every time he laid into it, which was much too often. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 i've wondered for years...errr...i wondered for years, more like it, why my right ear is so much more damaged than my left, the one that always has my amp blaring into it... then i realized... it's the cymbals...they are about 130 db at ear level to us guitar players. crazy. http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
desertbluesman Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I am a big fan of good drummers, and good bass players. "The drums are the engine of a rock band, and the bass is the transmission". Without either of those instruments done well the band just don't go. Oh yes it can be Ok mind you, but for real movement those two are the keys to success. Of course there is a lot of great music without either of those instrumentalists. But in a rock band, the above quote does apply. Emily Remler once told me in one of my lessons with her. "It is all in the groove, the groove is where it's at". And the bass and the drums supply the best groove there is in rock music. You can lay almost any kind of licks on top of a rockin groove and it will work (as long as you stay in key that is) dbm If it sounds good, it is good !! http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music
Guitarzan Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 i like our drummer. he is tasteful. but then he is the same guy who manned the helm when we recorded our CD. he has ears. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will
skipclone 1 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 One word-recording. I still love playing live but I`ve been complaining about the `lightswitch syndrome` for years (two settings, blast and off). I don`t think you can blame one group of players, it depends on who`s playing but usually the first lemming to jump off the Db cliff is rapidly followed by the rest. In any case, with the exception of the occasional feedback screech my ears are more at peace in the studio. Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491
Guitarzan Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 One word-recording. I still love playing live but I`ve been complaining about the `lightswitch syndrome` for years (two settings, blast and off). I don`t think you can blame one group of players, it depends on who`s playing but usually the first lemming to jump off the Db cliff is rapidly followed by the rest. In any case, with the exception of the occasional feedback screech my ears are more at peace in the studio. recording is what i mainly love, creating is so rewarding. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will
picker Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 How do you tell is the stage is level? If it is, the drummer drools out of both sides of his mouth... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Bartholomew Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 The bottom line: Finding minimal players who actually understand how to make things sound good is close to impossible, studio players excepted. Everyone I see doing clubs (Mtl area) seems to be a superstar show-off. I call them wankers - useless in the studio for making bed-tracks and blowing their brains out on every lead line, lots of speed, lots of volume, but feel - not so much. Like mentioned a few times above - filling every hole.....like a rabbit in heat ? At age 17 I met a drummer in Montreal by the name of Corky Laing and we worked together for almost 7 years until I got educated, got a real job and also became the Business Manager for one of the top session singers in French Quebec. Corky was way above almost everyone I've met in the last 40 years but was also controlled to an extreme amount by our producer at Atlantic Records. Listen to Mississippi Queen - Corky wrote the song, did the track and was not allowed by Felix to do anything more than back-to-back triplets. While I'm on the subject I should also mention that the guitar Leads Leslie West did were also 100% worked-out - unlike some of the more recent garbage he plays on various uTube videos. Felix is unfortunately no longer around and it's obvious now every time Leslie does a show. Additionally we heard "Strange Brew" in Felix's basement in N.Y. on tape the day he did the mix. It was the first "Cream" hit. The leads Clapton did on the first 2 albums that Felix also produced and helped write were completely worked-out for the studio. Something is missing these days - seems to be good taste while music stores are getting rich selling gear to wannabees. Steve Kirman who owns Steve's Music in Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa went from his father's hole in the wall pawn shop to owning a complete block of music store "departments". Been round the block but am not over the hill... http://www.bandmix.ca/jamrocker/
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 amen, bart. a planet full of wankers with the BEST fulltone pedals (with the custom suck knobs full blast) and the mesa-boogie cult of personality amp with snakeskin and diamond plate, the 36 fret custom paul reed smith's.... and not a lick actually to be played. lol... i see that everywhere. crazy planet. anyways...a blast from the past... corky laing.. no foolin...i walked out on a show he did at the shaboo inn...no offence, but he had like, the worst band i had ever heard... i think it was corky laing and the mix *(?) to be fair, his band was in dire straits...the lead guitar player had quit or something, and the bassist was playing lead guitar... i mean, it was like spinal tap doing a bloody jazz improv. when corky stood up to the empty room, with the doors wide open in hopes someone would walk in their and maybe buy a drink and announced "i'm here and i'm proud"...i walked out. too much... or not enough....or something. so...tho i loved him with les, on his own? not so much. no offense intended meant or anything like that...just a memory, first time i've heard his name mentioned in like, 30 some odd years! peace.... *this was the late 70's/early 80's, so....my memory is dodgy. http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
Griffinator Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 amen, bart. a planet full of wankers with the BEST fulltone pedals (with the custom suck knobs full blast) and the mesa-boogie cult of personality amp with snakeskin and diamond plate, the 36 fret custom paul reed smith's.... Hey now, I play that song in our band. It's really my only "wanker" moment in our entire show - because sometimes it's just f***ing fun to wank for a couple minutes and act all 80's guitar god-like. :D A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends.
Bartholomew Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I completely agree with Griff above - I also love to sometimes wank my brains out. Only problem I have is really good time and feel but not so fast, so I phrase well and stay within my limits. Agree also with pinkjimiphoton plus I remember when Corky was working with the guitar player from Spinal Tap and others - I always thought the Spinal Tap guy was an actor not a guitar player. Seems after Pappalardi was shot in the back of the head "by accident" (by his wife) everyone he produced developed into garbage - except Clapton of course. I personally can't stand Leslie - he was always arrogant when we were younger but may have changed according to a couple of interviews I've seen. I've also jammed or done studio work with drummers Jerry Mercer (April Wine), Jim Gordon (Joe Cocker, Leon Russell, George Harrison, Elton John) and Marty Simon (now Vice-Chaiman of SOCAN, award winning sound-track writer & producer). The three of them were among the best people I ever played with. If I'm doing too much name dropping tell me...wish I could re-live those "good old days" now that I sort-of know what I'm doing... My goal now is to get another one on the Billboard charts or have a French Quebec hit before croaking, but with all the young dudes out there I may be too much of an old fart to compete even though I still have our Agent from way back for major label deals. I dye my hair and lie about my age. Record industry sales suck now but I want the glory and recognition of bettering what I did in the past - am I a fool, a wanker, or a positive thinker ? Been round the block but am not over the hill... http://www.bandmix.ca/jamrocker/
Griffinator Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 am I a fool, a wanker, or a positive thinker ? Probably all the above, but then so are the rest of us... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends.
Larryz Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Gotta have drums when playing at a dance...when playing listening music at small venues you can get by without them...it's the bass drum instead of the cymbals that gets my eardrums to vibrate... the drummers I play with are cool, not too loud and don't need to fill every space...when playing with a sax player it does get to me to hear honk honk honk single note fills and prefer they just stay quite till the time comes and then let her rip...my harp buddy likes to play throughout the song too, but if he stays under the vocals it's usually tasty...it's also fun to just play solo...I have to protect my ears and make sure to play with the right people... Take care, Larryz
skipclone 1 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I completely agree with Griff above - I also love to sometimes wank my brains out. Only problem I have is really good time and feel but not so fast, so I phrase well and stay within my limits. Agree also with pinkjimiphoton plus I remember when Corky was working with the guitar player from Spinal Tap and others - I always thought the Spinal Tap guy was an actor not a guitar player. Seems after Pappalardi was shot in the back of the head "by accident" (by his wife) everyone he produced developed into garbage - except Clapton of course. I personally can't stand Leslie - he was always arrogant when we were younger but may have changed according to a couple of interviews I've seen. I've also jammed or done studio work with drummers Jerry Mercer (April Wine), Jim Gordon (Joe Cocker, Leon Russell, George Harrison, Elton John) and Marty Simon (now Vice-Chaiman of SOCAN, award winning sound-track writer & producer). The three of them were among the best people I ever played with. If I'm doing too much name dropping tell me...wish I could re-live those "good old days" now that I sort-of know what I'm doing... My goal now is to get another one on the Billboard charts or have a French Quebec hit before croaking, but with all the young dudes out there I may be too much of an old fart to compete even though I still have our Agent from way back for major label deals. I dye my hair and lie about my age. Record industry sales suck now but I want the glory and recognition of bettering what I did in the past - am I a fool, a wanker, or a positive thinker ? Some years ago I got into a heated discussion with another forum member-I said that, I didn`t like the idea of some idiot paying me for my music and then totally destroying it, using it for some damn car commercial or abusing the melody with a bunch of silly turntable noise or other such crap. The other person said better that than nothing at all. I disagree that those are the only choices. How about moderate success on your own terms? I can count myself a winner without going to sleep knowing I`m responsible for a musical biotoxin. I think that can happen at any age. Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 amen, bart. a planet full of wankers with the BEST fulltone pedals (with the custom suck knobs full blast) and the mesa-boogie cult of personality amp with snakeskin and diamond plate, the 36 fret custom paul reed smith's.... Hey now, I play that song in our band. It's really my only "wanker" moment in our entire show - because sometimes it's just f***ing fun to wank for a couple minutes and act all 80's guitar god-like. :D oh no, i love the song, and i love vernon... i meant the fact that the wankers always seem to gravitate towards the same gear...and always get the "suck" tone just perfect, no matter what high end gear they buy for themselves to convince the world of their greatness... sorry dude! lol http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Gotta have drums when playing at a dance...when playing listening music at small venues you can get by without them...it's the bass drum instead of the cymbals that gets my eardrums to vibrate... the drummers I play with are cool, not too loud and don't need to fill every space...when playing with a sax player it does get to me to hear honk honk honk single note fills and prefer they just stay quite till the time comes and then let her rip...my harp buddy likes to play throughout the song too, but if he stays under the vocals it's usually tasty...it's also fun to just play solo...I have to protect my ears and make sure to play with the right people... dude, i was gonna ask if you were one of them metal guys with the seven-string slung around your ankles when i saw the bass drum comment... but i hear ya...another beef of mine is mic'ing drums in small rooms... i mean.. hello? and then they want it in the monitors, too???????????? HELLO???????????????????? i love a good harp player too, as long as they don't skin cat's non-stop...nothing worse than trying to sing over that racket sometimes...ever notice how good harp players breathe and add to the music, and bad ones don't seem to breathe ever and just kinda create an endless cosmic wall of suck? i mean...how do they breathe in that much? sorry...need coffee... http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
A String Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I'd say a good drummer is hard to find, but heck, a good anything is hard to find. Throughout the many years I spent on the road, we went through several drummers. Everything from a guy that used to send drum stick splinters and pieces of cymbal shrapnel launching though the air and into our eyes, to a guy that had a nervous breakdown because he missed home and left us stranded up in the middle of no where, half way through a tour. One thing I learned, along time ago, is that all musicians are nuts. The trick is to find the ones that have their egos in check and understand that doing more than your instrument was intended to do, is more of a solo effort type thing, than a group effort. There should never be a "flurry of notes/beats" at any point IMO, unless you are doing an actual, all by yourself, solo. Be tasteful. Be aware of the other players and learn to click with them. Learn to play off them and accentuate each other. That's what makes a band sound professional. That's what makes a band sound good. Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music
Griffinator Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I'd say a good drummer is hard to find, but heck, a good anything is hard to find. Yep. Got a new project starting up now where the most talent in the band is me and the drummer. The other two guys are green, but teachable and energetic - and in a cover band energy can be worth more than talent... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends.
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 "I'd say a good drummer is hard to find, but heck, a good anything is hard to find." "One thing I learned, along time ago, is that all musicians are nuts. The trick is to find the ones that have their egos in check and understand that doing more than your instrument was intended to do, is more of a solo effort type thing, than a group effort. There should never be a "flurry of notes/beats" at any point IMO, unless you are doing an actual, all by yourself, solo. Be tasteful. Be aware of the other players and learn to click with them. Learn to play off them and accentuate each other. That's what makes a band sound professional. That's what makes a band sound good." the choir sings: "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-mennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...." :tu: http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
maxtheaxe Posted February 21, 2011 Author Posted February 21, 2011 Well, some good comments and some digressions here...glad to see that I'm not alone in this. One of the things that crops up is the notion of micing drums in small rooms. I've been of the same mind..."what's the point?" Then I recently had a conversation with a drummer that I truely respect, not only because he's a monster player but also because he understands this very issue. In a nutshell, he was saying that it's actually better to mic drums for this very reason, so that the drummer can have his sound in his (or her) monitors and will be more likely to lay back into the mix better. My friend said that this made all the difference to him in terms of blending with the music. Just FWIW, and from the best drummer I've ever played with...style like a combo of Steve Gadd and Carl Palmer and good taste to boot!
Griffinator Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Not only that, Max, but a lot of folks (self included) like to record live performances for later use as teaching tools in the band - kind of like how a coach does so for his team. Hard to do that when the drums aren't mic'ed up, unless you want to suffer through one of those stereo recorder versions. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends.
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Well, some good comments and some digressions here...glad to see that I'm not alone in this. One of the things that crops up is the notion of micing drums in small rooms. I've been of the same mind..."what's the point?" Then I recently had a conversation with a drummer that I truely respect, not only because he's a monster player but also because he understands this very issue. In a nutshell, he was saying that it's actually better to mic drums for this very reason, so that the drummer can have his sound in his (or her) monitors and will be more likely to lay back into the mix better. My friend said that this made all the difference to him in terms of blending with the music. Just FWIW, and from the best drummer I've ever played with...style like a combo of Steve Gadd and Carl Palmer and good taste to boot! hmmmm...sounds like a MUSICIAN...something many drummers just don't aspire to..lol. http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
A String Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 We always mic'ed the drums. If the club was small, we would at least have something on the kick, snare and one floating around the toms. It allowed for more control on the board and the addition of some low end to the kick, when needed. Not to mention the benefits in the monitor mix. Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music
pinkjimiphoton Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 just easier to control the overall volume in a small club if ya don't mic them (we usually mic the kick, snare and a couple overheads at the least, too)...the prob isn't mic'ing, it's that too many of these guys have just one volume...ear bleed. if you're playing small rooms, with a loud drummer, mic'ing them can often be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of copping another gig.. quiet drummers are one thing, for sure... but the bashers usually get picked up enough by live vocal mics to piss off alot of club owners. of course, i'm talking worst case scenarios...i've been blessed to work with some exceptional drummers, and if the drummer isn't good, or dynamic enough, i tend to move on anyways. if ya build a house with a weak foundation, it's gonna crumble eventually. http://www.sweetrelief.org/ https://www.wepay.com/donations/memorial-stone-for-juliane-pocius
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