Amp heads in the $300 range- which are decent?

[5 string Mike]

Hey all,

 

After a practice last week where my little GK MB200 was pretty well drowned out by 3 guitar players, drums and keyboards (usual volume war story), I was looking into building up a full-stack rig.

 

Budget and compatibility concerns have me locked into the $300 and 300W area for a head- yeah I know it's not much, but the budget is what it is. I can find more wattage for the money but then I have to buy cabs that can handle more than 200W and that can get pricey.

 

So, I was looking at the GK backline 600. It seems to be looked upon as ok for it's price range and it has some good features.

 

Another head I came across was a 300W Kustom Deep End hybrid. There isn't much info on this line.

 

Right now I'm leaning toward the GK. I like my MB200 and I don't really want to mess with preamp tube maintenance.

 

Is there anything about either one of these heads worth knowing about?

 

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

 

 

[slowfinger]

I'm happy with my GK. It is not too bulky, I'm happy with the tone adjustments and when I was shopping for a head it seemed to have a nice sweet tone compared to others in it's price range. The tuner input is handy, the built in DI has been handy also. It puts out a decent thump when going into 4ohms of cab.

 

I had an issue with a resonant vibration in the head itself - it turned out to be the case just touching the big toroidal transformer, and was easily fixed with some insulating tape.

[jcadmus]

I'd check for Peavey and Hartke heads used -- you can find 300-500-watt amps for under $300.

[Nicklab]

That amp got drowned out? REALLY?!?!? The guys you're playing with must be either quite loud, or you're running the amp at 8 ohms. I've used the GK MB-200 head at about half power with multiple guitar players, a keyboard player, vocalist, sax player and a drummer and things worked for me just fine. On occassion I actually felt I was TOO loud.

 

So to that end, I'd ask what impedence is your cabinet running at? An 8 ohm cab with that head will max out at 140 watts, and that's less than ideal for the band you're talking about. You can get 200 watts from that head when it runs at 4 ohms.

[The Geoff]

Adding another cab with lots of area (4x10?) will give you a bigger volume boost than going from 200w to 300w.

 

G.

[slowfinger]

Agree - my GK into the 8ohm 210 struggles against my ex-band's gits, but ADD a 8ohm 410 (ie making the load 4ohm) and it makes plenty of easy thump.

[Nicklab]

Really? I would think that 200 watts driving 2 cabs would leave the cabinets underpowered. It seems like running that head with a single 4 ohm cab would probably be the best way to go, but preferably a cab with multiple speakers.

[picker]

Really? I would think that 200 watts driving 2 cabs would leave the cabinets underpowered. It seems like running that head with a single 4 ohm cab would probably be the best way to go, but preferably a cab with multiple speakers.

If your amp is 200 watts at 8 ohms, it would be around 300 at 4 ohms. And, the more speaker cone surface you have vibrating the air, the more air you move, which means you make more sound.

[Nicklab]

If your amp is 200 watts at 8 ohms, it would be around 300 at 4 ohms. And, the more speaker cone surface you have vibrating the air, the more air you move, which means you make more sound.

 

Check out the specs for the GK MB-200. It's rated for 140 watts at 8 ohms, and 200 watts at 4 ohms.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

the MB200 is 200W at 4O. i agree that another speaker cabinet will do a lot more than a more powerful head. sometimes physics isn't in the mood to argue.

 

robb.

[Nicklab]

I agree that more speakers = more air pushed. What I'm wondering is this: given the power ratings of most modern speakers, don't you think that a 200 watt amp would leave 2 cabinets underpowered?

[Paul K]

I had a GK Backline 350-or-something head. IIR, it was rated at 175 watts on 8 ohms, but the manual said IXNAY on the 4 ohm (but the company e-mailed me and said 4 ohms was OK, which is were I thought the "350" part of the name came from....) I thought it was severely underpowered; it was no better than the amp in my Carvin PB150 (It was 100 watts at 8 ohm, 150 watts at 4 ohm). I'd sell the GK you have and get the Carvin class D thing, or one of the other like-minded products. Power has come way down in price.

 

Power corrupts, but in a good way, don'cha'know.

[boycalledsue]

If you get a sealed (old school) 4x10 (or 4x12) you will be heard. You might not get great reggae sounds out of it but you will be loud. You lose a lot of power on the low few notes on your bass.

[5 string Mike]

Quick point of clarity- I have the MB115 combo- I misspoke- it's still 200W but I can't add anything to it. Sorry for the confusion. I looked at too much stuff and got my models mixed up.

 

Nicklab- they got loud. There were actually 4 people playing guitar but one was through a little Fender acoustic amp and it was a smaller contributor. The keyboard player was playing a keyboard rig the one guitarist has- a nice Kurzweil running through an old Black Widow equipped Peavey TNT- and it was cranked. The other 3 guitarists each had 2x12 all tube combos and the drummer was loud.

 

It wasn't completely drowned out but I was pushing it a lot more than I wanted to to keep up.

 

So the main reason for going with a 300W amp head was to get cabs with some speaker area (I'm looking at a 4x10 to start and add a 15 later) and have a little head room. I still plan on using the combo for most stuff but I have needed a rig that can keep up when I need to.

 

jcadmus- I was looking around for those too- the problem is they go quick. The local GC had a Peavey nitro 450W head for $200 and it went within a day of taking it in. I know there is some good used stuff but timing hasn't worked out that well for me.

 

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the backline 600 last night. Now it's off to find some decent cabs.

 

Thanks for the tips and sorry for giving you inaccurate information.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

I agree that more speakers = more air pushed. What I'm wondering is this: given the power ratings of most modern speakers, don't you think that a 200 watt amp would leave 2 cabinets underpowered?

 

the short answer is no.

 

the longer answer is that most bass signals are very dynamic and have average levels well below the RMS ratings of most cabinets. in fact, you have a much better chance of overpowering a cabinet using a smaller amp and running it into clipping than by using a bigger amp. when you clip a bass signal, it becomes less dynamic: the peaks remain the same but the average increases.

 

the only way to get louder is to move more air. it takes twice the power to increase the SPL by 3dB. the same thing can be done by adding an identical cabinet to what you're already using. let's assume you're using a single 8O cabinet and that it is rated to at least 200W (pretty safe on both counts). you will need to get a 300W (@ 8O) amplifier to get this done. and it will cost you considerably more new, unless you're willing to have the amp grow considerably in size and weight.

 

but that's a decision only you can make for yourself. do you like your tone already? is it more important to load to cabinets while keeping your little MB2 head in your bass gigbag? or would you prefer to have one cabinet and one head?

 

also don't forget that cabinet sensitivity has as much or more to do with loudness as power. there is no such thing as underpowered relative to power ratings. however, you may not be giving an inefficient cabinet enough power to get all the SPL out of it that you can. this is largely irrespective of rating (e.g. i use a 590W amplifier channel with my 300W bergantino HT-112 in order to fully realize its potential).

 

these things are not deterministic. without full frequency plots and a lot more understanding of acoustics, all 99dB sensitivity and 600W RMS ratings are not identical. that's why some cabinets get better with more power and some get more fragile.

 

robb.

[jcadmus]

It's not really an either/or thing -- if you want more volume you need more power AND more speaker area. Especially if you want some headroom so you're not running things full tilt.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

It's not really an either/or thing -- if you want significantly more volume you need more power AND more speaker area. Especially if you want some headroom so you're not running things full tilt.

 

fixed it for you.

 

robb.

[Nicklab]

Thanks for the clarification Robb!

[jcadmus]

Who wants insignificantly more power?

 

The answer: nobody.

 

But technically, you are correct.

[jcadmus]

 

jcadmus- I was looking around for those too- the problem is they go quick.

 

 

http://www.daddys.com/

 

Check Daddy's -- they have them and they ship.

[boycalledsue]

the longer answer is that most bass signals are very dynamic and have average levels well below the RMS ratings of most cabinets. in fact, you have a much better chance of overpowering a cabinet using a smaller amp and running it into clipping than by using a bigger amp. when you clip a bass signal, it becomes less dynamic: the peaks remain the same but the average increases.

 

So compression (from distorting power tubes or some other new fangled source) might get you the extra "loud" you need within the peak rating of the amp?

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Who wants insignificantly more power?

 

The answer: nobody.

 

But technically, you are correct.

 

funny. but the 3dB increase in volume is not insignificant. nor are the measures necessary to achieve it.

 

the reality is that you will get louder (again, we're talking about SPL, not power) by either doubling amplifier power or adding a second cabinet of equal displacement.

 

and this is not to mention that neither of these options is free. but whatever. nobody runs out of money or makes compromises because nobody wants insignificantly more power. right.

 

the difference with this amp compared to the average use case is that because it is at 140W, it actually might be cheaper to double the amp power instead of getting another cabinet. normally, with a 300W to 500W amp, it is almost definitely cheaper to get another cabinet.

 

robb.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

So compression (from distorting power tubes or some other new fangled source) might get you the extra "loud" you need within the peak rating of the amp?

 

yes. the whole purpose of compression is to increase the average level relative to the peak level. obviously a compressor will intentionally compress, but distortion compresses, too, whether it's tubes or solid state.

 

this is also why advertisements on TV are much louder than the programs, even though there are loudness limits. the advertisements are heavily compressed so that they are as loud as possible without exceeding statutory limits.

 

robb.

[jcadmus]

the difference with this amp compared to the average use case is that because it is at 140W, it actually might be cheaper to double the amp power instead of getting another cabinet. normally, with a 300W to 500W amp, it is almost definitely cheaper to get another cabinet.

 

robb.

Agreed.

[5 string Mike]

Now that the head is ordered, I picked up a used older Crate 4x10 cab at the local GC.

 

I can't remember the model but it's rated at 400W. I traded my 5 string Squier Deluxe Jazz V and a little cash.

 

I tested it out and I plugged it in to a Backline 300 display head and grabbed a mexi P bass off the wall. The salesman and I hooked it up and there was a fried-bacon sound coming out of it. We both had the "oh no" look on our face as we tried a few different things. Long story short, the input jack on the P bass was loose. I grabbed a Squier fretless and it was fine.

 

I have to say GC treated me fair. They gave me more than I expected for my trade in and were not pushy.

 

I am not the biggest Crate fan but this appeared to be an older model and from what I have been able to find out the older stuff was ok. It has the big "volume knob" on the back and (rather wobbly) casters with the horn tweeter in the middle.

 

So I'm on my way to a respectable rig. Sometime I can get a 1x15 or something to go with it and life should be good.

[jcadmus]

It has the big "volume knob" on the back and (rather wobbly) casters with the horn tweeter in the middle.

 

That knob probably controls the tweeter level.

[bassin bill]

have you thought of getting used head? sometimes you can even find them at musician's friend. how about a power amp and using your current head for the pre-amp only.

i believe you need 500-800 watts w/ 2 cabinets, especially if you are using 4 x 10. however, 2 x 15 seem to be pretty loud, even w/ only 1. it depends on what your sound is.

i find that for stage, you would typically be playing lower as the clubs can't put up w/ very loud volumes. it totally defeats the back-line (if they even have that) unless you are playing pretty large places.

i recommend search used, take your time and you will eventually fall into something. otherwise you will may be revisiting this issue again.

[iualum]

...pretty excellent deal if you ask me...& if you don't care for MF, sure all the big places would match this price...

 

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Eden-E300-300W-Bass-Amp-Head?sku=430476

 

[5 string Mike]

Thanks, Bill

 

I tried used heads- it hasn't worked out in my favor. Most of what comes up around here is either stuff like Behringer, it's way overpriced, or it's hacked up (Carvin 4x10 cab with 3 different brands of speakers, etc). The good stuff comes up when I can't get to it.

 

I don't really play clubs, but some smaller indoor charity stuff my MB115 combo is great for. I am just getting something together for the times we do outdoor stuff or play with 3-4 loud guitards.

[Wally Malone]

Older GK800RBs can be found out there for a decent price. Even though I have a great rack with a Stewart 2.1 and a Read Purity preamp I still use my old GK800RB on many gigs.

 

Wally