diggin' on pianoteq this weekend

[mate stubb]

I downloaded the demo of Pianoteq and have been playing and tweaking this weekend. It's very impressive.

 

For the first couple of hours, I couldn't get past the over rich ambience that is set up on the stock presets. This thing models soundboard projection, string resonance interactions, secondary string resonances (the undamped parts outside the bridges), room ambience and position, etc.

 

It does the concert hall experience extremely well. However, the times in my life that I have listened in such a room are few compared to the times of hearing pianos in more normal rooms.

 

I finally discovered the mic placement page, which was the key to taming the ambience. My fave so far is a mic at player position, a stereo pair above treble and bass strings, and another ambient pair 10 feet or so away.

 

The other big adjustment is hammer hardness, which lets you easily get the brilliance right where you want it.

 

My interest in piano has waned over the years, as I have rededicated myself to organ. I think a big reason for that is that I have been playing DPs almost exclusively for many years. The lack of connectedness between the notes and lousy action have made me forget what it was like to play a really good instrument.

 

Pianoteq is the first thing I have played in a long time that can "sing" - connect the notes in a musical manner. The playing experience is quite satisfying. The UI for setting the velocity curves is dead simple and intuitive.

 

Tone-wise, it is a bit generic. It sounds authentic, but I guess I would describe it as sounding like A piano, but not so much like a PARTICULAR piano, if that makes sense.

 

Some posters have complained about weird metallic artifacts, but I heard none of that after I tamed the ambience down. I think software like this is absolutely the wave of the future.

 

Now the next problem - my Nord Stage action is not up to the task of playing this with the finesse it deserves. What would? The new Roland escapement action?

[Marzzz]

With the most recent update, Pianoteq now responds to the High Resolution MIDI Velocity CC#88, which allows over 14,000 increments of velocity instead of the standard 128; The VAX77 has the capability of transmitting it- one can argue whether you can tell 128 vs 14,000+, but the subtlety of nuance with which I can now play with the Pianoteq/Vax77 combo is nothing short of astounding. I definitely can't go back to samples now. I have the "Play" version and will be upgrading to Standard soon.

[timwat]

What is the CPU load with Pianoteq?

[Joe Muscara]

I bet either Roland PHA w/escapement or Kawai MP8/10.

 

Keep us posted on this. I'm intrigued by your experiences with this.

[SK]

Moe, I had tried the old trial version of a previous Pianoteq and was perplexed by it. It wasn't there yet.

 

Roger (Piano4U) had told me the Pianoteq 3 was improved, so I just downloaded the new trial based on your reminder.

 

Much improved, and a lot of fun to play. The sound is definitely better, if not perfect, but the playability is excellent. I like the C3 close mic.

 

Now I may have to consider this. The EW pianos are more realistic but playability is half of the game on a piano. As you said, the mic placements make a difference, and I'm interested in how this will sound using the EW Spaces resonance I just bought.

 

As to controller action, that's going to be a matter of taste. I'm sure the Roland NX would be nice with it, or any decent piano action keyboard.

 

timwat, the CPU usuage is low to nonexistent. Instantly playable, and tweakable.

[Dana.]

Yamaha CP1/CP5. Much better than the Roland action which has a hard landing and overly textured key surface.

[timwat]

Thanks, Steve.

 

Tim

[burningbusch]

I think what's interesting about PianoTeq is that mono still sounds like mono. Even though there are no mics involved and the thing is 100% modeled, mono sounds VERY similar to listening to one side of a stereo sampled piano, i.e. the change from stereo to mono is dramatic. So forget this sum-to-mono BS and the related phasing issues. Grab one side of the stereo sampled piano and call it a day. There's nothing anyone is going to be able to do to make a mono piano sound close to the stereo sound.

 

Busch.

[Dana.]

Busch, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying... Do you think the mono Pianoteq sound is an accurate representation of a mono piano recording?

[mate stubb]

The difference with pianoteq mono is this - you can place the single mono mic anywhere in the soundfield that you want. There will be no problems with trying to use one channel where the original mic position was not in a balanced spot.

[SK]

After a quick comparison with EW Quantum Bosendorfer: Pianoteq is improved, easier to play and good for practice. For recording... EW.

[JpScoey]

Now the next problem - my Nord Stage action is not up to the task of playing this with the finesse it deserves.

 

What would? The new Roland escapement action?

 

As is usual, Moe, it's each to their own when it comes to preferable piano actions.

 

Out of interest, when Roland were promoting their 'escapement' action,

 

I emailed their technical dept. to ask exactly how a digital piano could have an escapement,

 

as this is only physically possible on a proper mechanical piano action.

 

 

Their answer was that it's a 'simulated effect' of the escapement on a 'real' piano...

 

using some kind of rubber device to give the 'impression' of the let-off (escapement) on a real piano action.

 

Nothing at all to do with the ACTUAL way a real piano action works.

 

[Joe Muscara]

Personally, I don't feel that the Roland actions are "overly textured," but then you should feel the ivory keys on my piano. Now *that's* textured!

 

I "might could" agree that it has a hard landing, though.

 

John, you know as well as anyone that except for the Kawai MP series, just about every aspect of a digital piano action as far as feel of the motion is simulated, including the weight. Roland simulated one more thing, and to my fingers, it feels pretty good.

 

All that being said, I'd rather talk about Pianoteq in this thread than the actions, or at least keep it balanced. So...

 

I've been waiting for the Ivory II line up to be complete before I upgraded, but maybe I'll try the Pianoteq demo again before I do. I'm not sure if I would get PLAY or Standard though. I don't think I'd need Pro, but might like the additional tweakability of Standard, like the mic positioning.

[Mark Schmieder]

Good and useful feedback on customizing some of those controls.

 

I always turn off the reverb in Pianoteq, but haven't done much tweaking otherwise, as I have mostly just been "producing" its sound via EQ etc. in the mix. But the OP's suggestions could help a lot with the raw sound.

 

Lately I have been focusing more on completing some of my classical recordings, and am finding some mild frustration with believability, but am torn as the phrasing is so much more natural vs. samples. I've considered layering with VSL's Bosendorfer, which works pretty well surprisingly, but I'm going to stick with pure Pianoteq for now, and probably just re-render and/or re-play parts on projects that aren't 100% done, with each update.

 

At this point, I pretty much ONLY use the more recent presets such as K1 as my starting point. When I go back to my previous favourites now, I find they no longer pass my acceptability test. So, clearly, the playability and natural phrasing of Pianoteq has been a major psychoacoustic aspect of it seeming "real" all along -- except for those who hone in almost entirely on how closely it does or doesn't match the timbre of a specific piano model (e.g. Steinway).

 

Given the rate of progress of Pianoteq though, I feel no inclination to spend more money on samples, including East/West Quantum Leap Pianos or Ivory II. But this is in the context of a full mix, at which point any reservations about Pianoteq's mid-range fall away fairly quickly. In an exposed piano solo piece, the frustration might be higher, as the playability of Pianoteq would be even more important but its less realistic timbre could be off-putting.

 

So, we aren't quite there yet, but it's only a matter of time, and Pianoteq updates are almost always free!

[SK]

this is in the context of a full mix, at which point any reservations about Pianoteq's mid-range fall away fairly quickly. In an exposed piano solo piece, the frustration might be higher, as the playability of Pianoteq would be even more important but its less realistic timbre could be off-putting.

I agree that Pianoteq 3 can work well in a mix.

 

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

Just got Pianoteq PLAY and spent about an hour playing with it. I've had the demo for awhile but having the real deal is so nice (ie, no dead notes).

 

It is very inspiring to play. The connection between the keys on my PX-330 and the sound is so realistic it's almost scary. The electric piano models are fantastic, too. It runs on my new laptop flawlessly at low latencies. I think I just found the replacement for my Motif ES rack. USB connection from the PX330 to the laptop, Steinberg CI1 interface, and Pianoteq running in stand-alone mode. Done and done.

 

This is definitely the state of the art for piano sounds, for sure.

[Joe Muscara]

Jim,

 

Are you using one of the presets, or any custom settings?

[TechEverlasting]

To me Pianoteq 3 responds wonderfully, feels very organic but still doesn't quite producce the actual sound of a piano. I'm demoing it on a Receptor 2+ Pro Max which already has Ivory II installed. What I find works astonishingly well is to turn off all of the Ivory II Italian's "sympathetic resonance" (which I'm not in the least impressed with) then layer in an instance of Pianoteq 3 about 10 db down with sympathetic resonance at maximum. With a little tweaking you get all the realism of Ivory and the rich sympathetic resonance of Pianoteq. I've never had more fun playing an electronic imitation of a piano. I find the Receptor's CPU stays comfortably low at a 64 sample latency with this combination.

[SK]

Good tip, Tech. I just tried that Pianoteq layering with EWQL's Steinway, and it definitely sounds real. Sympathetic resonance turned all the way up, very little Pianotec in the mix. Can't wait to try it now with EWQLP's Bosendorfer - the best piano sample I've heard.

 

I was searching last night for sympathetic resonance plug-ins, but nothing impressed me. So thanks!

[Jim Alfredson]

Joe, PLAY doesn't allow you to change much other than basic parameters of the pre-programmed presets, but that's fine. I'm getting what I want from it.

 

Last night I was up until 4am playing it. It's just so damn playable, much more so than any sample-based piano I've ever experienced.

[SK]

Agree, the playability of Pianoteq is first rate. I give it a 10 out of 10. Love the computer friendliness of it, and props to Pianotec for the many improvements in Pianotec 3.

 

OTOH: I upgraded to the full EWQL pianos recently, and I was very concerned about the playability. I found if I just load the lite piano samples, it plays about as well as Pianoteq (a 9 out of 10 or better) and sounds fuller/more realistic (not simply like a piano, but like a nice instrument.) If I get time, I could do some comparison recordings.

 

I'm recording with only the lite QL samples (only one mic position), and then bounce with the full samples/all mic positions. The full samples are unplayable without a powerful computer, but they bounce from Logic fine.

 

It depends on one's taste in piano. In many situations, Pianoteq will do the job well, and definitely with ease. I like it, especially the sympathetic resonance, which I've now 'borrowed' for the EWQL pianos.

 

[Joe Muscara]

Jim, I didn't realize you were talking about the PLAY version, but that is cool that you're happy without tweaking.

[Dana.]

Joe, just demo it already. It's FREE.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

You know damned well if I demo it, I might like it...

[Dana.]

And...?

[Joe Muscara]

GAS, man. GAS.

[Dana.]

Joe and Pianoteq sittin' in a tree...

[Jim Alfredson]

At $99, it's a steal. Of course then you need to get the electric piano add-ons.

[keyman27]

At $99, it's a steal. Of course then you need to get the electric piano add-ons.

 

So that would be about $270 in US dollars for PLAY and the Rock piano add-ons, right? I'm going by the Pianoteq website's prices -- is there a cheaper way to get it?

 

I'm pretty much set to buy an SK-1 soon. But I am wondering about getting an XK-3c instead, especially if they drop in price. Then I could use the laptop with Pianoteq (and/or Scarbee etc.) to give me no-compromise great "extra" sounds. Plus I prefer the looks of the XK over the SK.

[Marzzz]

You are better off ordering it from a place like audiomidi.com, frequently you can buy Pianoteq for equivalent dollars as opposed to paying an exchange rate (i.e., $99.00 instead of 99,00 (which is like $145.00 or so these days)). Strongly consider getting the Standard version of Pianoteq instead of Play if you think you may upgrade, because you can only get the upgrade directly from Modartt.