The song picking process

[tarkus]

i swear it's not another "songs i won't play" thread...

 

one of my current bands has a process of how we pick and choose in an effort to keep everyone interested.

 

i've been in a lot of 'hired-gun' situations where I just got a list from the band-leader - end of story.

 

The current democratic method allows each player to choose 5 songs for each selection round (5 songs - 5 band members)

 

here's the catch: if one player objects to a song outright, that song is canned - no questions asked, but the objector has sacraficed his objection for the first round.

 

the second choice by player 1 goes into review. if all in favor, then that song is accepted for the rehearsal list.

 

so with five band members - at least one of your chosen 5 will have to be played regardless of objections.

 

we go around the horn a few times to iron it out and surprisingly, there are few if any objections.

 

Usually when working out the details of a song (whether we nail-it or whether it just looked good on paper) will also decide the life of that choice.

 

It's kind of like a rotisserie draft.

 

 

I like the method because rather than throwing out the tired old standards, it gets the the band thinking in terms of what we could be capable of executing, and it keeps bs to a minimum.

 

what say you?

 

 

 

 

[MoKen]

That sounds great - as long as you're playing for your own pleasure. However, I don't feel the presence of the consumer.

 

How much does the gig pay?

 

Maybe I'm misreading this. If you've already determined that X is your target audience and they like music like Y and we're only talking about this Y or that Y, then y not? (sorry, I couldn't resist).

[J. Dan]

There have been a lot of discussions on this topic, and I think it depends on what the goal of the band is. By your method, if one guy only wants to play Rush songs, at least one Rush song will always make it on the rehearsal list. Being that they are not easy, the band spends significant time learning a song that will likely flop and get pulled.

 

If your goal is to keep all the band members happy, you'll never do that unless the success of the band is what makes them happy, not playing their favorite song. If you want a band to be successful, song selection is a business decision. What is the vision for the band? What is the target audience that will maximize profit for the client? What songs, regardless of personal preference, will appeal to the widest percentage of the target audience?

 

Everyone can submit ideas, but ultimately it usually turns out that one or two people are best at picking the winners. If someone doesn't like to play because their choices don't get picked, you don't need them. There's no "I" in "team".

[Adan]

I agree with much of the previous 2 posts. In my spare spare time, I've been working on starting a dance band. I am basically the bandleader, because I take the most initiative. I have a pretty clear concept of how I want our sets to flow, so I'm selecting the tunes. That said, there's alot of ways to skin the cat. I can easily come up with 3 tunes for every "slot" that needs filling. If someone has a strong objection, I say "fine, let's do this instead," or I'll let them suggest something. This at least gives bandmembers the illusion that their opinions are important.

 

Even before I present songs to the band, I'll run them by the singer and try to explore her feelings about it. If I can't make her excited about a tune, then it's out. Without that passion from the frontperson, it's DOA.

 

As others have said, I think your process risks putting band demacracy ahead of band success. But who knows, it might work out just fine.

 

Disclaimer: no cats were harmed in the making of this post.

[Threadslayer]

Disclaimer: no cats were harmed in the making of this post.

 

Try closing one eye and not taking too dramatic a backswing - it startles them and makes them harder to hit.

[David Loving]

If you have a singer, she has to like it and be able to sing/sell the song. Same with the lead guitar. If those two aren't on board forget about it.

[Bill H.]

what say you?

 

I say show us your list. Proof (success or failure of this selection process) is in the pudding.

[SpaceNorman]

Rather than fight about whether or not a given tune is a good candidate before we've tried it - we maintain a "suggestions" list. Everybody is welcome to add any tune to the list. We typically target two to three new tunes for each rehearsal - selected off the "suggestions" list. More often than not demands of an upcoming gig dictate one or two of the target tunes (i.e., wedding request songs, etc.) The remainder of the target list gets picked off the "suggestions" list after a little conversation/negotiation. When two tunes get put to a "head to head" choice - my bandmates can usually find consensus about which tunes they think will "sell" the best - especially knowing that a tune that doesn't make the target list for the next rehearsal simply stays on the list.

 

We typically give it a stab at one rehearsal then decide if we're going to put any more effort into it. When it clearly isn't coming together - dropping it doesn't get much objection from anybody. If it makes the cut - we'll work it up to the point it can be tried live.

 

After a night or two in front of people - if it's not working, it's an instant drop (usually with no objections).

 

The approach may seem a bit over the top - however, in reality it's got a flow to it. We don't waste any time or risk any potential strife arguing about how a tune might go over. Best of all everybody has input into what tunes make it to the playlist.

 

It works well for us. I can say with certainty that each of us has been surprised by the results. I've been shocked by the great response tunes I thought would draw nothing by crickets - as well as shocked by tunes I though would kill that fell flat.

 

 

[b_3guy]

I played a lot of years in a classic rock band. We never learned a song unless it was #1 on the charts for 2 months - this means it got enough air play to be recognized by the general populous. This didn't ensure that it would work, but it would have a good chance. We did give the songs more than a couple of nights to work, but if it didn't work, it didn't make the set list after a while.

 

The drummer actually compiled the songs this band learned & dropped. They filled 2 - 90 minute cassette tapes.

[DanL]

We have sort of a working wish list that we exchange via email. Everyone puts in their suggestions and I keep a master of the list. I decide what we're going to learn. I talk with our singer a lot about what she feels comfortable doing, if she needs key changes, etc. I do the same with the drummer who also sings lead. A week or so before a scheduled rehearsal I'll send out the list of 2-3 songs to learn, and which version we're doing. We do a lot of stuff off youtube so I'll send the link to the version, and sometimes links to alternate versions if it contains something cool. We learn the songs at home, go to practice and put them together.

 

Sometimes a song doesn't fit our instrumentation (like if it's got a ton of backup vocals, a lot of horns, or a lot of sequenced keyboard parts). Those get nixed before we even learn them. Other times we'll find a song that we'd think fits the band, and ends up simply not grooving. If we can't get it to sound good after a couple passes, we move it to the "on the shelf" list to reevaluate. Anything we learn will get put on the set list for the next gig and we'll see how it goes for a couple weekends. If it bombs we shelve it. A lot of times it's not just the song, but where it gets put in the list and what is before and after it. "Would I Lie To You" by Eurythmics is a great song for us but it's better as a set opener than it is later in the set. "Something Got Me Started" by Simply Red was a ripping tune for our band's makeup, but it never went over well, not enough people recognized it. "Will Go Round in Circles" by Billy Preston is one that can be hit or miss, even in the same room on different dates. One night everyone dances to it, another night, the dance floor empties, so we end up not doing it as much. As our list gets stronger a lot of songs we played pretty often are getting dropped, but that's a good thing- less filler, more good material.

[Joe Muscara]

I think tarkus' band's approach is pretty cool and has its advantages as well as disadvantages (already discussed such as the band may be picking for themselves more than the audience).

 

If this works for them, I say great. I could see my old band doing something like that. Instead, we just used a general consensus. If people were positive then we gave the tune a shot. If not, we moved on. Also, if anyone had a strong objection, we punted it. We weren't shooting for popularity, just songs we wanted to play.

[tarkus]

what say you?

 

I say show us your list. Proof (success or failure of this selection process) is in the pudding.

 

from the recent selection process (asterisked) and some older songs that survived the cut:

here ya go!

 

Drive My Car*

Monkey Man*

Interstate Love Song

Here Comes My Girl

One Tree Hill*

Drive*

Come Together

Use Me

Little Sister*

 

Ramble On

Low

Hash Pipe

Use Somebody

Crosstown Traffic

Heavy*

Im Free- stones

Heartbreaker - stones

Last Dance With Mary Jane

Bohemian Like You

Bring It On Home*

By The Way*

Going Down The Road Feelin Bad*

Superstition

Vasoline*

Smooth*

After Midnight

Aint No Sunshine*

Ticket To Ride*

Lyin to the Races*

Streets Have No Names

White Room

 

 

Big difference in band attitude - keeps everyone happy.

 

 

[tarkus]

I think tarkus' band's approach is pretty cool and has its advantages as well as disadvantages (already discussed such as the band may be picking for themselves more than the audience).

 

If this works for them, I say great. I could see my old band doing something like that. Instead, we just used a general consensus. If people were positive then we gave the tune a shot. If not, we moved on. Also, if anyone had a strong objection, we punted it. We weren't shooting for popularity, just songs we wanted to play.

 

Joe - this is pretty much General Consensus by process.

 

what usually happened was we would throw out a smattering of songs and half would be approached and the other half would rot on the vine because of disinterest.

 

We are not assuming what our audience would like since we play many different venues. Certain bars cater to a younger blue-collar crowd and other bars are more like classic rock older crowd...

 

It's pretty interesting since we can pull off "current with classics" and yield a good response in almost all venues.

 

The problem most cover bands face is that they pigeon-hole themselves into a mentality that says: "we're just classic rock" or "we only play top 40".

 

This works for a bit and gets tired.

 

Music - espescially Rock n Roll is pretty wide-open these days. The Punk scene is dead and Alternatve Rock is now lumped in with classic.

 

My 30 years of bar experience has taught me one valuable lesson that I live by: never under-estimate your listeners.

[ITGITC]

My 30 years of bar experience has taught me one valuable lesson that I live by: never under-estimate your listeners.

 

Agreed.

 

Sure, one of my favorite lines is that the audience doesn't come out to hear the band, they're just there to hook up.

 

However, there are people who are paying attention. It's important to stick with those tunes that are already working for you while you slip in a few new ones. If the new ones work and the dance floor is crowded, fine. If they don't, drop them and try something else.

 

We often get complacent and stick with the tried and true tunes that work. I believe we should continuously keep our eyes and ears open for new songs to add to the sets. This may sound like common sense, but it's surprising how many bands are content to never change the sets. For me, this gets really boring.

 

It's also important to go hear other bands to see what works for them. How many of you play medleys? I think one or two of these can be a great addition to a set. The main reason I like them is because it keeps people on the dance floor. Another reason is that like me, many people don't want to hear every verse & chorus. But they want to be there for the hook. Playing a medley of Stones tunes or Eagles tunes or Sinatra tunes can be a great crowd-pleaser without being over the top. Three full-length Sinatra tunes might put the audience to sleep. But if you had an arrangement that included a few of his top hits - and just the hooks of each - then it could go over well and people will praise you for throwing in something that otherwise wouldn't have been included. There's a spontaneity / surprise factor that keeps the show from being monotonous.

 

As musicians, we are creative people. We need to remember this and take advantage of this talent whenever we can. Being on the lookout for possibilities to add new music is something we shouldn't overlook.

 

Tom

 

 

 

[tarkus]

ya gotta take some risks.

 

There always that one guy in the room that walks up and says - "I've seen you guys three times, don't ya know any other songs?"

 

We played a gig where the crowd was almost entirely age 20-25.

 

we figured, play it safe and play some new stuff.

 

Well - cracker and dandy warhols was good for bit.

 

The biggest applause and what got the most chicks shakin it was White Room....? go figure? Well I figured it was the incredibly keyboard work on the intro by "yours truly", as well as the groovy bass line I played...

 

 

We play a few NYC gigs and Here Comes my Girl was a throw away Song - again - younger crowd, but seems like these kids had their parent's record collection in mind.

 

Nostalgia is a funny thing and not limited to a particular age group.

 

[ProfD]

IMO, it is never about playing songs that will keep musicians interested. They can be replaced if the program doesn't work for them.

 

I pick songs that I can sell to paying customers. My target audience is women. Dudes will follow the honey and spend their money too.

 

Of course, some musicians can get paid for playing testosterone-filled or sausage-fest music. That is great if/when it works.

 

The only time I expect to see more dudes than women is when doing a prison gig. Then, I'll pick the appropriate songs for them.

 

IMO, the song selection process can be democratic if everyone in the band is tuned in to playing songs that will go over well with the target audience.

[tarkus]

My target audience is women.

 

let us know how the next lilith fair works out for ya... jk

[ITGITC]

 

 

Of course, some musicians can get paid for playing testosterone-filled or sausage-fest music. That is great if/when it works.

 

The only time I expect to see more dudes than women is when doing a prison gig. Then, I'll pick the appropriate songs for them.

 

Tell me more about your prison gigs, ProfD.

 

You could probably get lots of guys out on the dance floor with this one, ProfD...

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5Ts4M3irWM

 

This is a particularly scary tune to play at a prison gig.

 

Bad moons rising just isn't something I would want to see in prison (or anywhere else).

 

 

[video:youtube]

[tarkus]

lol!

[Ken Beaumont]

That reminds me,

My younger brother thought Fogerty was singing "there's a bathroom on the right"

[ProfD]

Tell me more about your prison gigs, ProfD.

No problem.

 

Back in the early 90s, I played in a local band. Due to its popularity, we got a call from the bing.

 

Of course, most of the inmates were cats we already knew on the outside. So, it was a matter of getting paid to entertain and visit with friends from the 'hood.

 

The inmates enjoyed the music so much, the corrections officials invited us back to play at 'Family Day'.

 

That was an event where family and friends were allowed to spend the day in the prison yard with their incarcerated loved ones.

 

Sometimes, the only difference between playing at a penitentiary and a bar is the security search and razor wire.

 

Back on topic, it still comes down to picking the songs they want to hear. Not necessarily the musicians.

[ITGITC]

Tell me more about your prison gigs, ProfD.

Sometimes, the only difference between playing at a penitentiary and a bar is the security search and razor wire.

 

Back on topic, it still comes down to picking the songs they want to hear. Not necessarily the musicians.

 

Yeah... I would think it would be in your best interest to pick the songs they want to hear... or else.

 

http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/beale/m/320/s/images/wallpapers/band-prison.jpg

[ProfD]

Yeah... I would think it would be in your best interest to pick the songs they want to hear... or else.

http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/beale/m/320/s/images/wallpapers/band-prison.jpg

That goes for any audience. Play the wrong songs and there may not be another gig.

[tarkus]

That goes for any audience. Play the wrong songs and there may not be another gig.

 

can you identify "the wrong songs" or are you just guessing...

 

Do you "poll" your audience before you play, or do you assume based on a scouting mission that a certain demographic frequents the venue and you'll be able to cater to them?

 

It's like fishing:

 

on thursday the fish might like cut bait, on friday they might want artificials and a particular color at that... on Saturday they may not bite at all.

 

I'll tell you if 'Sweet Home Alabama" was the only lure in my tackle-box I wouldn't be much of a fisherman.

 

In order to rise above mediocrity - you gotta take risks, and ... it's only music so no-one gets hurt.

 

Look at the list of tune I posted - nothing offensive or off-putting in there.

 

My prog band used to do quite well with a splendid mix of the obscure - the audience had no clue what we'd play next and the element of surprise coupled with professional execution usually wins the day.

[ProfD]

That goes for any audience. Play the wrong songs and there may not be another gig.

 

can you identify "the wrong songs" or are you just guessing...

 

In order to rise above mediocrity - you gotta take risks, and ... it's only music so no-one gets hurt.

 

Look at the list of tune I posted - nothing offensive or off-putting in there.

For me, the 'wrong' song is one that obviously doesn't appeal to the audience i.e. clears the dance floor or whatever.

 

Otherwise, I don't have a crystal ball. Nor do I see anything offensive or off-putting on your list either.

 

Either way, a band will know what works and doesn't by the end of the night or sooner.

[ITGITC]

That goes for any audience. Play the wrong songs and there may not be another gig.

 

can you identify "the wrong songs" or are you just guessing...

 

 

Every band needs to learn a good selection of music.

 

I will add that every band needs to learn a few tunes (or medleys) out of its usual genre... as you said, "a spendid mix".

 

The audience, your loyal following, come out to hear your usual stuff. But it's important for you to be able to remain flexible just in case Mr. Big Spender comes up with a request.

 

The skill is honed from experience. If you can learn to read your audience, cater to what they want to hear, and keep the dance floor full, as has been mentioned - that's what it's about. You may never get asked to play them, but it's imperative to have a good selection of "specialty" tunes you can pull out your... pocket.

 

Yeah.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

I keep seeing mention of "clearing the dance floor," but at least two things come to mind in regards to that. First, not all music is dance music. Second and related, just because people aren't dancing or "standing right up there" doesn't mean they're not being entertained by the band and having a good time. Unless you're playing disco.

 

We've discussed in other threads having gigs where we thought it went poorly only to have people come up afterwards and tell us how good they thought we were. We are not always the best judge of our own shows. Many may be better off just playing their best, having fun, and hoping it's infectious.

 

P.S. ProfD, your posts in this thread make me wonder if this is why you have not played in a long time. If you haven't done it for yourself and only for others, that may be why. I actually believe it's a scale ranging from "totally for the audience" to "totally for myself" and both extremes are bad. Perhaps you kept a balance and are just making a point here. But it's something to think about if not.

[J. Dan]

I think the audience is even worse than some musicians at picking a song list. Just because people want to hear a song does not mean it will have the right vibe and/or go over with the whole crowd. Being an 80s band naturally limits our list, but even so, we get requests for songs that you would initially think "yeah that's a great 80s song, I'd love to do that". But when you put it in the context of trying to keep little twenty-something honeys dancing...not so much. Now if we were doing big tribute shows in venues with seating as opposed to what are primarily dance clubs, it might be a different story. But the places we play, you gotta get the young ladies out there dancing as early as possible and keep them there. Song selection is critical. One song that people may enjoy, but don't want to dance to, and now the floor is empty and you're starting over. People peak in the door and see nobody dancing, they may turn around and go someplace else. The see the dance floor packed and people getting nuts having a good time, they'll stay. Song selection is both an art and a science, and lots of very talented bands are not nearly as successful as they could/should be, simply because of a few poor choices in song selection, IMHO.

[ProfD]

P.S. ProfD, your posts in this thread make me wonder if this is why you have not played in a long time. If you haven't done it for yourself and only for others, that may be why. I actually believe it's a scale ranging from "totally for the audience" to "totally for myself" and both extremes are bad. Perhaps you kept a balance and are just making a point here. But it's something to think about if not.

Brotha Joe, believe I kept a balance in my gigging days. Of course, my main objective being to get paid focused the priorities.

 

I haven't played out in a long time because it costs me less to play at home whenever I take the Motif out of its case.

 

Otherwise, from a business perspective, I'm making the point as 80s-LZ put it, there is an art and science to picking the right songs. Especially if the band wants to be successful on any level.

[ITGITC]

Song selection is both an art and a science, and lots of very talented bands are not nearly as successful as they could/should be, simply because of a few poor choices in song selection, IMHO.

 

Exactly.