Bluthner Pianos

[Dave Ferris]

I found a new love-- Bluthner pianos.

 

My friend who's a great Guitarist along with being a studio/Pro Tools wizard is looking for a piano to relax and unwind from the world of 96K 24 bit. He composes for TV, major jingles and sometime puts in 18 hour days composing, mixing, editing and re-doing. He's not a serious piano player per se but has great ears and just wants something for his family and just general enjoyment.

 

He found this which was about 85 miles from my house so we drove out yesterday to check it out.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/2193587532.html

 

The case was a bit funky, not really professionally refinished and the action was a bit squirrelly but the sound was gorgeous ! A real mellow sound much different from Steinway, I loved it.

 

He was originally drawn to them because McCartney used one on "Let it Be".

But I thought it was great for Debussy and even Jazz stuff. Really cool pianos these Bluthners.

[Jazz+]

I played a 100 year old 9 foot Bluthner last month at a solo piano gig and it had the best bass notes I have ever played with. The action was wonderful, extremely light and easy to play. The mid range and highs were nothing special though, sort of dry and brittle. So I mostly played low bass notes with a lower than usual right hand. It probably needed a major rebuild.

[Dana.]

I found a new love-- Bluthner pianos.

Uhboy. Here we go... How were single note lines?

[Sven Golly]

He was originally drawn to them because McCartney used one on "Let it Be".

 

Not to take anything away from Bluthner pianos, but McCartney used a C.Bechstein on Let It Be (and Hey Jude, etc).

 

Disregard; Let It Be was in fact the Bluthner at Trident Studios... Hey Jude, the White Album, and a raft of other tracks were on the C.Bechstein at Abbey Road Studios. Sorry for the early morning misspeak.

[Joe Muscara]

I don't think the Blüthner logo could have been much bigger on Macca's piano, could it? That would take a lot of gaffer's tape for some folks on here to cover up.

 

I only recently learned that they were in East Germany, which makes me wonder how The Beatles ended up with one before the fall of the wall.

 

Oh, is your friend going to buy it?

[ADino]

There is also a Bluthner vst avalable. I heard the demo's, 1 done by Russell Ferrante of the Jackets. Very nice. Been interested in that since I heard of it.

[Dave Ferris]

He's very seriously considering it. I'm trying to find him a reputable tech to go out that far, or one who lives in the area to check out the re-build work. The action had a real shallow key dip and just overall had this feeling like you were playing your "grandma's piano", if you know what I mean. I noticed one of the bass notes wasn't always sounding when you'd hold a chord in the middle. Neither one of us obviously are a tech, so just want to get someone to look at it before he pulls the trigger. I did talk to my guy, he's not into traveling that far but did recommend someone who apprenticed under him that lives in Chino, a little closer. My tech sounded pretty optimistic. He too loves the Bluthners and thought it could be just be some 100 year old parts in the action, not part of the re-build, that could be replaced. He did say it was a good idea to have the pinblock checked out too. So if everything checks out reasonably well, he'll probably get it real quick.

 

Speaking of Bechsteins, yesterday, we also went out to a store and looked at a 5' 6" Bechstein L from 1904, . It too was a partial re-build and played way better then the Bluthner, also sounded great too. The cabinet was a more legit refinishing job as well. But the overall sound, especially in the bass of the 6' 3" Bluthner is still tipping the scale towards it. My friend really wanted to get a German piano as opposed to Yamaha or a Kawai. He liked the Bechstein a lot and is considering it but I think the Bluthner's the one.

[VLH]

Bluthners are wonderful pianos. This piano may be one with four instead of three courses in the upper register. However, if I recall correctly, they were slower to adopt the improved actions that developed at the turn of the last century. When I was looking at pianos I gave serious consideration to a restored 1906 Bluthner of the same size you describe, 6' 3" --the tone was incredible but the action was not up to what I needed. I even consulted the technician who had worked on it for years and he felt that though the particular instrument was remarkable, I might have some difficulty getting used to the action. At that time, I was working very seriously on the classical repertoire and studying with a concert performer. But it's worth noting that great pianists of the era did better than I ever will with the "less than optimal" action. So getting a tech to look at it is a good thing--but if your friend is wanting a great sounding axe and is not so picky about action, it may be a very good choice. Bluthners were and are among the top pianos, like the Hamburg Steinways, older Mason & Hamlins, better Bechsteins, Grotrian. I think that many would consider them a cut above Kawaii and Yamaha (I'll duck for cover...)

 

I finally bought, new, a 5'10 inch Schimmel (German, but Yamaha has a small share of the ownership). Great tone and action--though that old, bigger Bluthner probably had a better tone--and to my good fortune there was a new dealership in town who was building his reputation, so I was able to get it slightly above dealer cost, which made it affordable.

 

I think that when one gets serious about a grand, it's well worth the time to visit many pianos and learn about them. In the process, you may even miss out on some great deals or even a piano that would have been "better" for you...but the process educates your taste. Ultimately, when you bring a piano home and put it in your space, it will sound different from the way it sounded in the room where you tested it out. And then the process begins of getting it tweaked for the room by a good tech, and of learning how to play it to its best advantage in your setting.

[Keybass]

I am a piano technician and I also work for Blüthner USA, LLC, so I thought I would make a contribution to this thread. There is a lot of misinformation regarding the Blüthner patented action that was developed by Julius Blüthner. like any piano if it is not regulated correctly it will not be able to meet it's design potential. If regulated properly the Blüthner action will offer better pianissimo control then the Erard or modern double escapement action.

 

A real benefit of the action is that there is no jack/knuckle or roller relationship to interfere with fine pianissimo control. This enables the pianist to have full access to the considerable pallet of tambour the Blüthner pianos offers.

 

Blüthner pianos are the most idiosyncratic pianos ever made. This innovations include a cylindrically crowned soundboard, angle cut hammers and the aliquot stringing. Many shops restring old Blüthners, replace their soundboards with third party compression crowned planks and then sell the pianos as rebuilt. In reality these pianos are not true to the original Blüthner sound. The only shop in the U.S. that I would recommend to rebuild a Blüthner properly would be Reeder pianos in Lansing, MI.

 

Dave, I hope this piano checks out for your friend, it could be a real find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

Hey thanks KB.

 

Yeah this doesn't have the aliquot stringing but it is the original soundboard. Not sure of who did the re-building, but I'd have total confidence in Alan Cate, my tech, to do any regulation.

 

VLH, my friend was commenting on how any piano would have to be voiced down for his living room. It's quite a large space with 12' ceilings. Or at the very least a rug underneath.

 

We also looked at a rebuilt Steinway L with a new board and Renner hammers and action. My friend was smart enough to bring one of those little Zoom recorders which he stuck on the music desk and pointed directly into the piano, not a high end recording device but a good representation on comparing the three pianos.

 

He sent me an email tonight summing up his thoughts on all three. I'm pretty much in agreement with him on everything here.

 

Steinway - Loudest sound of the 3 pianos. Extremely focused and precise sounding but also pretty cold and sterile sounding compared to the other 2 pianos.

 

Bechstein - Very nice sounding! Almost like a 'mini' Steinway in that it was very focused sounding but was much warmer and more musical sounding than the above Steinway model. Was the smallest sounding of the 3 pianos due to it's 5'6" size?

 

Bluthner - Not nearly as focused as the other 2 pianos or as bright but had the best tone of all 3 by far. Very dreamy with a lot of character and also had a bit of a vintage sound depending on what piece you played on it. Your playing sounded the most inspired on this piano followed by the Bechstein. Great balance in the instrument and the best dynamics of the 3.

 

Didn't care for that particular Steinway at all just as far as listening to the clips. Bechstein sounded terrific though on the clips it had the smallest sound. Bluthner had the most character of all three and sounded pretty darn special.

 

If I can get a tech to work on the action successfully I would love to have the Bluthner. Cosmetically, the Bechstein looked amazing as well as the Steinway.

[Joe Muscara]

After reading Keybass' post, I did a search for info about Blüther's actions and found this.

 

http://www.bluethner.ca/services_bluthner_action.htm

 

(As you might recall, my recent research into buying a piano and acquiring one has led me to study at least the basics of piano actions. Oh yeah, I also have a background in mechanical engineering. ).

 

Blüthner action

http://www.bluethner.ca/_images/bluthner_action.jpg

 

Erard action (which appears to be similar to actions you find in most grands)

http://www.bluethner.ca/_images/erard_action.jpg

 

That's a pretty significant difference! Hopefully the tech will be able to deal with that. I'm now curious and would be interested in trying one to see how the difference feels.

[LX88]

That Bluthner looks like a tremendous deal. It's really a buyer's market out there for pianos that aren't Steinways, which always seem to have high asking prices.

 

There is no way I could put a 6 and a half foot grand in my space, so I have been looking for an upright. I have seen some interesting ones. Someone in Portland had a Klein upright, which was what Thelonius Monk had. I was seriously tempted to go hear that and see what it was a about.

 

I would be curious to know what some people consider to be the better older uprights . That is kind of getting away from this thread....perhaps should be a separate topic.

 

Back to the Bluthner...one guess on this would be that the wood had aged rather nicely if it has been in the dry environment of Southern California most of its life. Also, it would not have been subjected to as much dampness as in other areas.

 

Some tech types are somewhat down on older pianos but I have also heard some nice "mellowed" older instruments that don't sound hard and edgy...as the one you describe.

[Dave Ferris]

My friend bought the 1918 6'3" Bluthner, after paying $200 to have it checked out by a tech out in that area that was recommended by Kasimoff Piano, the LA Bluthner dealer.

 

The report came back not too glowing. It was recommended he replace the hammers, bush the keys, replace backchecks and regulation at a cost of 5-6K.

 

After talking with my tech, we both agreed since the tone is already excellent and my friend isn't a practicing pianist putting in 3-4 hours a day, he could probably forgo the hammers for awhile.

 

He's prepared to sink another $1000 into the regulation and action.

The seller was asking $7900 and my friend was able to get it at 7K. My friend Pierre Julia, at the Fazioli store, gave me the number of his movers, who gave my friend an excellent price of $200 to move the piano from out in Banning to his home in Los Feliz, about 90 miles away.

 

He kept playing the audio clips between the Bluthner and Bechstein over and over. He really felt the Bluthner sounded special and was the one, so I'm very excited for him. I almost feel like it's part my piano in a way, I got into it as much as my friend.

 

Will report back when he takes delivery, gets it in his living room, checks out the sound and gets an updated report from either my tech or another guy here in town.

[David Loving]

This is interesting! a gear thread worth reading! well done. keep us posted, please.

[Joe Muscara]

That's cool, Dave. That kind of matchmaking is great, and just in time for Valentine's Day! I hope he enjoys the piano for a long time to come. Maybe over time he'll be able to gradually put in all the work it needs. Also, different techs and people will have different opinions on what's needed so maybe it doesn't need all that.

[Bobadohshe]

$200 for a 90 mile move?! That's a serious deal.

[Dave Ferris]

It is a great deal. Pierre takes care of me and my friends because I talk about him and say what a nice guy he is on the Piano World Forums

 

This experience reinforces my feelings of --I've rarely played a re-built Steinway that I really liked. There was one, a D re-built by this guy

http://www.erwinspiano.com/about/?c=about

but it was out of my price league back when I got mine in '06.

[Bobadohshe]

Wish I'd known Pierre when I had to move my Kawai down to San Diego. Alas.

[pianorest]

Hi, i realise this thread is old now but if can be of any help, please contact me. Im from the UK. My father was the works manager at Bluthners UK workshop, regarded in the trade as the finest. His knowledge on the Bluthner piano is second to none and his voicing and regulation is breathtaking. I have followed in his footsteps, serving an apprenticeship with bluthners. We now have our own company www.pianorestorations.co.uk , we are known for our Bluthner work but obviously work on major makes. Concert pianist Artur Pizzaro uses us for his restoration work. We have rebuilt a 7'0" Bechstein for a customer in chicago and exported it out to him. He came to see us in the UK after tracking us down in piano forums, whilst here he bought the piano in auction and then commissioned us to rebuild it, new wrest plank and most importantly a New soundboard. This is the heart of the piano and if the crown/buck has been lost then you not going to have the correct resonsance, this lacking in length of note, quality of tone, power. This was rebuilt in 2009 and he is still overwhelmed by the piano.

We rebuild about 45 piano's a year, 30-35 of which are Bluthners, the rest steinways, bechsteins, bosendorfer ect...

We are currently expecting a Bechstein Concert Grand from Madeira Portugal for a concert hall there.

If there is any advice or anything i can help with please feel free to contact me.

 

Best wishes and happy playing.

Paul