Recording "live" sets... best method advice!?!

[StevieB_dup1]

I did a show last weekend and recorded what we played direct to Minidisc (straight out from the board) but it turned out like crap. Do you need special gear to do this... is there some kind of outboard gear that we should be using/renting to do this with?? I've done this in the past as well, at other gigs we've done, and have always ended up with sub-standard recordings... have never had any success at it. So.. tell me... is there someplace on the web where I can get some help/info (tutorials perhaps) on how to get good (or even have decent) recordings of "live" sets!?! I'm not looking to make professional level recordings here folks... just good copies of the show, that we can use as future reference material, hear what we did right/wrong, that sort of thing, have at least a decent copy of what we do live to give to prospective venue owners, so they can get an idea of what we can actually do/play/sound like... know what I mean?? Anywho... hope someone can help me out... Cheers!!

[BP3]

Economy - Try combining the direct from the console with room mics (good to record on 4 tracks so you can deal with the delay on the room mics). What ever isn't loud enough on the direct was probably too loud from the stage. The room mics should catch that. More expensive - Use a multitrack recorder and record each instrument seperately, add a couple room mics. Mix to taste.

[sign]

Hi SteveB I did this some ten years with decent results by taping two Radio Shack PZM mics somewhere on the wall and record it. Recording from the board doesn't work most of the time, vocals much to loud and bass (guitar sometimes too) much to soft. This happens because the bass is loud on stage and so there is little bass coming from the board. Peace.

[JingleJungle]

Stevie- the problm is simple...the mix that is produced on the FOH mixer is based on what the engineer hears from the PA PLUS the sound that's coming directly from the stage. The only way around this is to use a couple of aux sends (if there any to spare) to create a submix with the proper instrument-vocal mix. This means, very often, to have to use only 1 effect for vocals and having only 1-2 aux sends for monitoring purposes. Alternatively you should, as indicated above, use a couple of decent microphones to record the performance as heard from the console.\ Good Luck! Paul

[DC]

Line mixes off the mixer never sound right unless you set up with that in mind. In the real world, the guitar amp that is loud on stage isn't in the mixer much because it's got so much level coming off of stage etc. What I ended up doing with great results was picking up an AT 822 stereo mic and running it directly to a dat on stage. I'd wire the mic up in the ceiling out in front of the mains and daisy chain mic cords back to stage on the ceiling of the club. This gave me the entire sound of our band and actually aided me in getting better mixes from stage.

[videoeditor1]

Stevie, I've been doing [b]pro[/b] live audio for 16 years. I have done FOH mixes - to L&R to CD/DAT that have been used "as is" (songs, not whole shows) on albums, for rebroadcast on Telly & Radio - for Internet streaming etc etc. I currently do a smattering of remote recording - with a pair of MX2424's and a SONY DMXR100. A few tips. 1. Get the musicians to play softer. 2. Ensure the PA system is as phase coherent as possible. Ditto for balance between highs/mids/lows. 3. Monitor your mixing through the headphones. The console headphone mix should sound balanced (both frequency wise & instrument level wise). USe the house eq to correct room anomalies with frequency response. 4. Pay attention to how close the FOH mix position is from the stage. The closer you are, the less isolation, the more difficult it is to discern what's coming thru the PA vs off the stage. There are limits to how loud you can run the PA to overcome the stage SPL, so you are working against many absolutes here. Last weekend I had shows in Atlanta & Virginai (Wolf's Den) & NJ (Trump Marina). The 1st two venues had strict limits at the console (85dB A weighed). During the sound check, the stage volume hit 80db [b]from the house[/b]. What did I do? Very little in terms of volume. I just sent a little of the vocal thru the main PA, and added a low wash of everything else below.... 5. Use aux groups and matrixes whenever these are available. If you want, I can send you some stuff. Prepare to be blown away. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] NYC Drew

[Anderton]

Take some time to master your recording. A little eq and dynamics control can work wonders with any type of material.

[3statedrive]

I'd be interested in some info on how you record your live sets

[20to20]

For simplicity and realism you can't beat a matched pair of mics (I'm using Earthworks) or a decent, or better, stereo mic (I've captured many great recordings with my ol' AT825)... These 2-track set-ups probably work better with acoustic sound sources or with instruments that are "gently" amplified (reinforced), but if a loudish rock band sounds "good" in the room, thru their PA+backline gear, then this stereo approach can produce a decent, or better, recording... I've done some semi-binaural stuff lately using either a "dummy head" [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] or more recently a homemade Jecklin disc placed between the Earthworks... By using my Finalizer as part of my "front-end", I can observe and tweak the relative width of the stereo image without creating a sonic hole in the middle or going out of phase... My usual Remote Rig: Earthworks mics> Monster cables> (freebies from a Sweetwater deal) 2ch's of an Oram Octasonic mic-pre> Finalizer> (AES out) Masterlink (3.5 hours of record time @ 24/44.1k with the stock HD) A couple of times I took a s/pdif out from the Fin to a DAT recorder as a backup, just in case I had any problems w/ the Masterlink, but it's always worked flawlessly... I just hit the "New Track" button before each song and keep a ruff log while I'm recording, then it's very easy to edit/navigate later back at the studio... My two mics worth... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Nickelbob 20to20soundesign This message has been edited by twenty.twenty@gte.net on 08-10-2001 at 06:57 PM

[atomicdog]

I've gotten exellent results using two aux sends, one left and one right, just adjust the levels in each channel until you have a good mix. The amount of each channel that you put into each aux will determine the pan position. Auxes should be in the pre position. Hope that helps. Mike BTW this eliminates the problem of overwhelming vocals and kick. also, even if you dont assign a channel to sub group or main you can still send it to the mini disk. So that high hat mic that is too loud in a small room doesn't have to go through the FOH mains to be recorded. Oh yeah, monitor the mix through headphones. This message has been edited by atomicdog on 08-10-2001 at 07:29 PM This message has been edited by atomicdog on 08-10-2001 at 07:31 PM

[fantasticsound]

Some great information in the previous posts, but I think no one has answered your question directly. We don't know the situation, so bear with my suppositions. I'll cover the basics here.

[*]You stated that the recording was of what [b]you[/b] played. You're not mixing, are you? If the mixer is not someone you can trust to setup the two aux mix (provided the aux's are available,) then this option is moot. . [*]It sounds like you are going for a basic recording to document the performance. I'm guessing a 4 track or exotic mic/mic pre/dat setup is asking WAY too much of you. The point is to get a decent sound without focusing on it. You have enough to take care of ON stage. If so, this too is moot. . [*]A mix of the LR outs is not going to yield good results. First, the house mix does not usually utilize all the mics, based on stage volume of various instruments. Second, if foh EQ's are patched as inserts on the master, they will affect other LR outputs. This means any EQ used to tune the house system will screw up your recording. As many systems are overpowered in the bass, you generally end up with a recording lacking bass. It is rolled off to compensate for the system bias. [*]MD recorders have limiting built in. If you're not careful about levels, the compression will sound awful.

The verdict: Unless you can mix it yourself and are willing to spend inordinate amounts of money on an elaborate recording system, your best bet is to buy the Sony ECM-717 stereo (Approx. $90) or an equivalent microphone, designed to plug directly into the MD recorder. I've used this mic with my MD recorder as well as with my Sony, analog, hi-8mm camcorder. It does a respectable job, requires no special connections, and can sit up by itself or be clipped to something for placement. I've recorded everything from bands and comedy to mixing notes (It and the MD make a great digital notepad.) to my 2 year old's brilliant verbage, in one of those plastic tube jungle gyms, with great results. It won't be as clear as a two aux mix, but it is simple and it works. BTW, all who have posted here have great ideas, if your situation is similar to theirs. NYC Drew, I would be honored to hear some of the mixes you've done on live boards. I haven't recorded with the MD in about 7 months, but one of the last 2 aux mixes I did was Bill Frisell, here in Nashville. ------------------ Neil [b]Reality[/b]: [i]A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.[/i]

[videoeditor1]

Neil, I'm out on "the road" till Aug 24/25th... we'll link up when I return.. NYC Drew

[D. Gauss]

i'm with the others on the minidisc and a mic route. you have to have the right MD recorder though. i originally had the sony something-37 that you always see on sale at guitar center. it sucked for setting levels without distorting. i use a sharp recorder now and it works great. a few times, in larger rooms, i've taken a mono line off of the soundboard into the left channel and used a mic for the right channel. then you can blend the two down to a mono mix later. -d. gauss

[Dak Lander]

I know this if from months ago but I wasn't here then so I'll throw in my suggestions now. I run a powered mixer on stage & record to a stereo cassette deck that has both line and mic inputs. It doesn't get you cd quality stuff but works well for demos. The setup is this: I run out of the stereo return on the mixer to the line in on the cassette deck. I'll run a cd player through the stereo input on the mixer & play it. Set the volume to about the level you will be playing, it can be a little softer. Set those limits where you want but not hitting the red very often. You can go higher with better tapes. I then set up a pair of mics (you can go with just one mic too) in front of the loudspeakers. The distance will depend on how loud you're playing and how much ambient sound you want in the mix. (crowd noise & etc) Blend that in with the line mix to the level you like. Record the test & then play it back. Make adjustments as needed & re test until you get something you can listen to. It shouldn't take too much. Record the first set with those settings & take a quick listen during your first break. Re-adjust as necessary. This works very well for me. You don't need the best of mics for this but you do need something that will handle the SPL's. With a little experimentation you'll find the ideal locations for the mics and the best settings that give you the best recording. It's not all that time consuming. The first time it will probably add about an hour to your setup time & after the settings are found about 20 to 30 minutes. This is one I did in October 2001 in an outdoor setting: [url=http://www.daklandermusic.com/songs/whiskey.mp3]Whiskey Before Breakfast[/url] It was originally an old instrumental Bluegrass staple and also an Irish reel. I recorded the music into n-Track Studio & burned them onto a cd using MusicMatch or Adaptec, I can't remember. It was ripped off the cd to mp3 at 128 using MusicMatch. I could have encoded of the wav file but wanted to see how it would come out. Try this recording system for the demos. It's fast & easy & acceptable for rough demos. Looks like this way came up with some skips & such. I'll redo it later off the wav. [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: daklander ] It's a bit better now, or try this different one: [url=http://www.daklandermusic.com/songs/neverdonelive.mp3]I Never Done That Before[/url] [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: daklander ]

[beerock]

I mix from the auxes, people are amazed at the sound I get. I feel thats the best way to mix live. Another BETTER way would be to record every track with a-dats. also, a not so busy monitor mixer can record a whole show while the foh engineer runs the show.

[Dak Lander]

[quote]Originally posted by beerock: [b]I mix from the auxes, people are amazed at the sound I get. I feel thats the best way to mix live. Another BETTER way would be to record every track with a-dats. also, a not so busy monitor mixer can record a whole show while the foh engineer runs the show.[/b][/quote] I agree with all this but it doesn't work if you're the performer, mixer, engineer running the show & ya don't have the a-dat. Believe it, an a-dat purchase is on the agenda. All I'm saying is, to answer the original question, my CHEAP way does an acceptable job for demos.

[Virtual Jim]

[quote]1. Get the musicians to play softer.[/quote] Sorry if I'm out of line, but doesn't this defeat the purpose of recording live? To me, the live performance is all about power, energy, and hearing music as it naturally happens. If you start asking the musicians to play thier instruments differently, why not just take them to a studio? Getting back to the original question, yes, a recording right off the board sounds horrible. If you want a "bootleg" sound, you've already got the minidisc which alot of bootleggers use. A guy I know that bootlegs concerts uses Core Sound mics. They're really small, but sound surprisingly good.

[videoeditor1]

[quote]Originally posted by DC_Jim: [b] Sorry if I'm out of line, but doesn't this defeat the purpose of recording live? To me, the live performance is all about power, energy, and hearing music as it naturally happens. If you start asking the musicians to play thier instruments differently, why not just take them to a studio? Getting back to the original question, yes, a recording right off the board sounds horrible. If you want a "bootleg" sound, you've already got the minidisc which alot of bootleggers use. A guy I know that bootlegs concerts uses Core Sound mics. They're really small, but sound surprisingly good.[/b][/quote] DC_Jim, That's not out of line! That's a valid question. getting musicians to play with less intensity is often required. Just as is getting them on a tour bus, or getting them to a TV/radio station.....and getting them to behave properly. When I'm mixing monitors, there are a lot of things I have to do to ensure I have a feedback free stage. -Repositioning floor wedges / or amps. -Changing cardiod ofr supercardiod mics. -In ears instead of floor wedges. -Drum baffle (clear plexiglas) for less drum bleed across the stage. -Keyboards / Backgrounds / Percs / Horns on risers for better visibility, isolation etc. Getting a group of pumped guys and gals to "turn down" means lower SPL levels on stage, which means higher intelligibility of vocals etc, which means the artiste does not have to compete with a snare drum, which means the house engineer hears less of the "on stage" sound, which means she is likely to create a balance / blend with more precision and accuracy. Furthermore, even with the best designed systems, driving them close to the "edge" presents different frequency response characteristics t han under "normal :) " circumstances. I got chased (for real & figurately) off the stage in Harlem 1995 - the big outdoor Fugees free concert. I'm mixing monitors, and one of those rappers wanted me to turn up the side fills (EAW KF850x2 subs+ 2 tops per side..on a rack of Crown Macro Techs)..I blanched, and the PM pretty much kicked my ass off the stage.....so sometimes you gotta give them what they want, whwn they want it. Today, I am more in control of those aspects of production, and my goal is not to have the stage compete wtih the house, or give the artiste a difficult time in hearing his/herself. My final responsiblity is ensuring that the artiste's work is translated as he or she sees fit [b]to the audience[/b]. A secondary goal is to make sure nobody goes deaf in the process. NYC Drew

[beerock]

YA! The club I worked at had a very bad stage volume problem. I always had to tell the musicians to turn down, in order for the vocals to be heard through the p.a. system.(ya it was a bad p.a.). Yes you do have to suck it up and tell the bands sometimes. The band members will get all pissy too(the ones you tell to turn down). Alot of the times the members you tell to turn down will actually turn up, or pretend to turn down. I cant stand when they do that!