OT: FInale users (poll included!)...

[Cygnus64]

I'm trying out the Finale demo. I'm getting a lot of "stuck" notes during playback. Is this a known glitch? I'm using my MM6 as a sound source. Is it a buggy program (2011)?

 

I'm not happy with the look of my scores in Sibelius. I'm more than happy with everything else, but let's face it: only the look matters in the long run. In the great "Sibelius vs Finale" debate, I always hear that Sibelius is more intuitive etc, but I don't often see "It looks better".

 

So... assuming the person knows what they are doing, which looks better when printed?

 

 

[moj]

I use 2010 and haven't had a problem with stuck notes. Updates usually fixes any "bugs". 2011 is in need of an update, which might be available at the website. The Yahoo Users Group for Finale is a great place, it's where I go for help.

I've never used Sibelius, since I've been satisfied with the "look" and application of Finale since version 2001.

[Cygnus64]

Thanks moj.

 

I've been messing with this Finale demo for a few hours. Thoughts? Wow. Waaaaaaaay cooler than I expected. I havent used it since ye olden days. I was expecting it to be "hard to learn". Nonsense.

 

It's amazing how customizable it is. On a different level than Sibelius. Things like tuplets for example: you can pick the bracket style, position, size, etc. Very impressive, I had no clue it was so customizable.

[Dave E]

As you well know, Dave, it's the only notation program I know, so I can't participate in your survey. But I can say in a "few hours" you've only scratching the surface of just how much control you have over how things look. From an engravers standpoint, it's the industry standard.

[Cygnus64]

Thanks for poppin in, Dave.

 

But I can say in a "few hours" you've only scratching the surface of just how much control you have over how things look.

 

It seems somewhat like a graphic design program in that respect. I hate to say it, but this was sorely missing in the project I just did. The individual parts looked okay, but I wasnt happy with the scores, hence this thread.

[Ian Benhamou]

Long time satisfied Finale user here. Still using 2008 version with no problems.

 

[Dave E]

Long time satisfied Finale user here. Still using 2008 version with no problems.

 

2008 was cool, but I thought 2007 was a dog. I messed with it for a few weeks, but I had so many glitches that I went back to 2006d till '08 came out. I'm currently using 2010 and diggin' it.

 

I HIGHLY recommend that you keep on top of updates. It seems like the new version always comes out buggy and gets fixed in the first few months of the year.

[Cygnus64]

Trumpets in C??? Those fools!

[Cygnus64]

I'm extremely disappointed. There is a midi sticking problem. I looked on their forum and it's not just me, nor has it been fixed in the 5 months or so this product has been out. One of their people said:

 

We have to prioritize fixes, and if the problem is not a high contact issue, it unfortunately will not receive as much attention because it does not impact a high number of users.

 

Wow, just wow. I'm speechless that someone from Finale would actually write that on a forum. They sold a product to people that DOES NOT WORK, and they actually said "it unfortunately will not receive as much attention"???? That's unacceptable. It's a huge problem, the damn notes are sticking. It's even worse than that, they are mis-firing on their own. I'll have a string part, nothing comes out. Ten seconds later, a tone cluster that is stuck. That's a low priority? Hogwash.

[Joe Muscara]

I found the thread where you got that from, and your quote is a bit out of context.

 

We have had some reports of stuck MIDI notes in Finale on Windows Vista/7 in some recent versions, however we have not been able to reproduce these issues in house and not everyone encounters the problem, so it is related to the user's specific environment/computer/MIDI hardware.

 

This has been reported to our development team, and they are investigating the issue.

 

I understand the frustration when a problem is found, and I have been in the situation myself over the years. We take every problem/bug report very seriously, and an effort is made to correct as much as possible in each version or maintenance update. We have to prioritize fixes, and if the problem is not a high contact issue, it unfortunately will not receive as much attention because it does not impact a high number of users.

(emphasis mine)

 

Sounds like they are aware of the issue, they just have not been able to pin it down.

 

I'm not saying you should buy Finale anyway despite this issue. I'm just saying that I don't think they're ignoring the issue. They just have not been able to fix it.

 

I'd be just as disappointed as you are though. It always stinks when you find something you like but then there turns out to be a deal-breaker.

[Cygnus64]

That is a bummer. Usually when a company says something like that, there's some sort of workaround available.

 

Probably. Still, it's not a big confidence-builder for the prospective buyer.

[Joe Muscara]

Sorry - you replied while I was editing.

[Cygnus64]

Sorry - you replied while I was editing.

 

Aah.

 

 

This has been reported to our development team, and they are investigating the issue.

 

That's good, but it seems to be 5 months now. That's kinda scary.

 

They just have not been able to fix it.

 

Yeah, that's the part I don't like.

[Joe Muscara]

I've been on the other side of that fence. The developers don't like not being able to fix it either!

[Cygnus64]

I've been on the other side of that fence.

I haven't, so I really don't have a point of reference. I'm sure there is a wide gap between the developers and the bean-counters, who insist on putting out products that might not be ready for prime time.

[Joe Muscara]

What I meant is having a problem in their code but they can't fix it because they can't repeat it or find it, not because someone won't let them.

[Cygnus64]

What I meant is having a problem in their code but they can't fix it because they can't repeat it or find it, not because someone won't let them.

 

From a non-developers perspective, I would question the amount of beta-testing?

 

I assume that because it's such a complex program, there are lots more things that can go wrong. Still, it's not cheap and the customer should be able to purchase a product with the guarantee that it actually works. I am guessing, like other sofware, that there is no "refund" once you open that seal.

[Bobadohshe]

I can't answer your 'poll' per se, as I don't really know how the two look when they are printed out. I can say that like Ian, I am a long time Finale user. There are things that seem annoying at first, and aspects of it that could be implemented much more easily, but overall I am quite satisfied. This largely may have to do with the fact that it's all I've ever used, and speedy entry is now indeedy very speedy for me.

[Joe Muscara]

Perhaps not the amount of beta testing but the quality of it.

 

Maybe it was bad timing, that the development was done before Win 64 or whatever it is, and they didn't have many testers using external modules. It sounds like most people that use it now use internal sounds. That's probably where most of the testing happened.

 

I was lucky. I worked at a software company where they programmed defensively. When something unexpected happened, the code would catch it and deal with it, or tell you and gracefully quit. Most programmers don't do this. They write their code with the assumption that it works, instead of the assumption that the unexpected is to be expected.

[Cygnus64]

There are things that seem annoying at first, and aspects of it that could be implemented much more easily,

 

I'm looking forward to Finalius. Overall, I'm finding Finale surprisingly straight-forward. I used it years ago, and since have used Encore and then Sibelius. Most of the concepts are the same. The "piano reduction" feature in Finale would be absolutely killer if it worked correctly. It doesn't at the moment, it could be me.

[frogmonkey]

Oh, man, this is making me want to stop using Logic to awkwardly write charts and get a real notation tool. Damn you.

[gryphon]

Oh, man, this is making me want to stop using Logic to awkwardly write charts and get a real notation tool.

Well, there's always musescore, the free music composition and notation software ( http://musescore.org/ )

 

http://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/sc1s_1.png

 

http://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/sc8s_1.png

 

http://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/sc9s_1.png

 

http://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/drum1_2.pnghttp://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/crossbeams_1.png

 

http://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/italian-1_0.pdf

[Cygnus64]

Oh, man, this is making me want to stop using Logic to awkwardly write charts and get a real notation tool.

Well, there's always musescore, the free music composition and notation software ( http://musescore.org/ )

 

That pdf looks pretty good.

 

A friend of mine uses noteworthy composer. It's shareware that costs $49. klonk He does pro symphony charts with it. It looks fine, it's not fancy and he doesn't put a lot of bells and whistles in his parts. I've played many of his scores and nobody is complaining about them.

[smanzella]

I just upgraded to Finale 2011 from Allegro 2007. So far so good. I've written over 150 arrangements in Allegro and so far I'm predicting that Finale 2011 is going to be many times better. I originally used the MakeMusic products because they had lesser/cheaper products with a pay-as-you-go path to the flagship product. The people who read my arrangements always comment on how good they look.

 

Also, MakeMusic tech support has always given me good results with minimum wait times on the phone.

[smanzella]

Per the original post....have you tried upgrading your sound card drivers and installing any other OS updates that are available. You may want to go as far as checking to see if there is a BIOS update for your motherboard. The problem could be hardware/driver related.

[gryphon]

That pdf looks pretty good.

Yeah, especially for free! I haven't commented on your choices because, although I do use Sibelius, I haven't played with Finale for four or five years. Conventional wisdom says Sibelius is easier to use, but Finale has the better engraving capabilities, although you already know that. Back then Finale seemed harder to work with and used a cartoonish interface, and there seemed no real reason to use that over Sibelius.

 

I've not had any complaints (from myself) with the piano and lead sheets I've written. I am getting into some arranging now, though, so my attitude may change, I don't know. But I've seen a Beethoven Symphony done in ABC notation (which I also use) and it looked pretty good to me, so...

 

I even used MusicTeX (as well as TeX) back in the day, so my tolerance for pain might be extraordinarily high.

 

I don't know about others here, but I would be interested in seeing a comparison of two sheets, one of each, where you found Finale to produce a better looking score. That would be beneficial.

 

If I was starting from scratch I would use musescore because of the price.

[Cygnus64]

Thanks Scott.

 

Per the original post....have you tried upgrading your sound card drivers and installing any other OS updates that are available. You may want to go as far as checking to see if there is a BIOS update for your motherboard. The problem could be hardware/driver related.

I haven't done anything yet. I suppose I'll do a lil investigating if I buy it.

 

Everything else I own works flawlessly. There are definite, tangible issues in Finale that can trigger erratic behavior. For example, doing a "piano reduction" will make the notes stick, like it's triggering a sustain pedal. I undo it and it works fine. There are other things that are similar, which to me suggests it's bugs and nothing more.

 

If I import a midi file and convert it, it doesn't like that. If it gets dense (but not that dense), a note will stick.

It does other weird stuff too. A note played arco (bowed) with strings will suddenly be played pizz (plucked), when there is nothing to tell it to do that. I think it happens mainly when I import midi files, I'll have to test it more. That doesn't concern me so much, things like the piano reduction bug does.

 

For the record, I made the midi files in Sibelius. I'll see if I can find some that weren't... hmmm, I just tried one I downloaded from the internet, it didnt stick. Interesting. I'll try some more and report back, hopefully it's not as big of a deal as I previously thought.

 

 

 

[Cygnus64]

I don't know about others here, but I would be interested in seeing a comparison of two sheets, one of each, where you found Finale to produce a better looking score. That would be beneficial.

 

 

I downloaded a part from the Finale site that someone did there. It looks REALLY good. If you want to see it, send me a pm with your email and I'll send it to you so you can compare (to an extent) since you know what Sibelius is capable of. It's really impressive, and definitely not "out of the box", this guy seems to know his stuff.

[Bridog6996]

I might have to retry Finale. Haven't used it since probably the 2002 or 2003 version, after which I switched to Sibelius. I've been hearing recently that it's easier to use, but it didn't used to be that way. My user manual for Finale is a book, and even though I consider myself pretty savvy when it comes to these things, I always constantly digging through that Finale manual and scratching my head. I've never even touched my Sibelius manual. It's not that Finale was impossible, but definitely way more convoluted compared to Sibelius for relatively advanced notation, at least at that time.

 

As for how they compare looks-wise, I'd be interested in comparing the two. I've never had any issues with how my Sibelius scores looks printed, so it's never crossed my mind. I would think the biggest factor is the quality of the printer you use. Sibelius is extremely customizable, so maybe playing with some different styles and settings would improve the look.

[frogmonkey]

Thanks, I'll try Musescore. I have a feeling I'm going to end up spending the money and getting Sibelius. I've really hit a wall in Logic-- which is too bad because I've got a pretty good workflow going with it, except for the fact that it won't correctly notate triplets.

 

I'm seeing Sibelius used in a lot of educational settings. Many of my young piano students are using it at school. Actually one of my students, an 11 year-old girl, just had her piece performed by Eighth Blackbird! (that's the sound of my horn tooting). Anyway, a lot of people around me are using it so it might be the way to go.