12 String Lacking Treble

[Professor Monkey]

As some of you probably remember, I bought a Breedlove SM-12. Well, I just came back from college and played with it and absolutely love it except for two things.

 

Action is a bit high I think.

Treble notes aren't ringing out as much as I'd like them to.

 

I was playing through a Crate acoustic amp with the bass turned all the way down and the mid and trebles boosted up but the low strings continuously shut out the higher strings. I replaced the battery and I think it helped but it might have just been psychological. Will getting new strings help as well? This is the only thing I can think of unless all twelve-strings are like this.

 

Also, I'm playing in an alternate tuning with a capo on the 4th fret and found that the intonation gets worse as I finger higher notes. Possible that my Capo just doesn't cut it? I've seen 6 and 12 string capos and mine is for a 6 string. I don't know if this makes a difference or not.

 

Thanks!

[Caevan O’Shite]

You may need to adjust the truss-rod, especially this time of year, when it will most like;ly need to be tightened a little- and I mean a little, starting by an eighth to a quarter turn at a time, trial-and-error, until the amount of relief- the "breathing space" or "elbow room" between the strings and the fretboard- is just enough, without being too much- which is where you wind up with too high of an action.

 

 

New strings just might help.

 

What is the alternate tuning you're tuned to? If it's too low, with the strings getting loose, that could effect the perceived sustain and presence of some strings, if not all of them. This may be exaggerated or different when "plugged in", as the pressure against the bridge and, in turn, the pickup underneath the saddle.

 

Alternate tunings can also effect the amount of relief in the fretboard, as the tension pulling against the neck is altered. Tuning up higher pulls more, tuning down lower pulls less. Adjusting the truss-rod can usually compensate for this.

 

 

If your capo is both wide enough, and of a radius- curvature- close enough to the same as your fretboard and strings- then it's fine for your guitar, 12 String or not.

[Professor Monkey]

It's in open C.

 

Now I know adjusting the truss-rod is simply twisting the screw... but should I be doing this or is it better to give it to a tech? Moreover, should I bother adjusting the truss rod now or wait until I get the new strings?

[Caevan O’Shite]

Well, if you intend to keep using this tuning, you could do it now; but overall, it sounds like a good idea to have a competent, qualified tech/luthier/repairer look it over and listen to your concerns, as well as to have them watch and listen to you play and describe what you don't like in the sound and response.

 

Open-C; is that similar to Open-D, but tuned further down? If so, that would make the neck pull back against the strings, and lessen the amount of relief.

 

Yeah, overall, I'd recommend taking it to a good tech, at least this time; later you can probably do this yourself, once you have a really good idea what's going on and what to do and not do.

[Professor Monkey]

I plan on replacing the strings this Friday when I head over to GC.

 

Open C is just C, G, C, G, C, E (low to high).

 

I'll replace the strings first and if I'm still not getting the sound I want I'll try to find a good local luthier then since I've heard GC's are horrible. Thanks!

[The Geoff]

Are you using a pick, or do you play finger-style?

 

G.

[Caevan O’Shite]

The Geoff is very well-versed with twelve-stringed axes; good to have ya 'board!

 

 

It might be a good thing for you to use slightly heavier gauge strings for those that are tuned down; that would mean buying individual strings to assemble a custom mixed-gauge set for that tuning. Or, some companies will allow you to order custom gauged sets for little or no extra charge. I've done just that, myself.

[The Geoff]

IF you are playing finger-style, then you are probably picking upward, thus playing the bass string with more force than the treble string. This would cause the effect you are describing.

 

Answer is to either play with a pick or to use thumb/finger picks *and* a new set of strings.

 

If you are tuning as low as open C, I'd consider a heavier set of strings, as acoustic guitars need a certain tension to make the table vibrate properly - you'll find many good quality 6ers are actually designed to use 11s or 12s. I'd seriously look at a set of 12s for downtuning. I would change the strings for a heavier set if I was continuing with Open C. Dropping 2 full tones is a big release of tension.

 

If that doesn't work, we may be looking at re-seating the piezo strip in the bridge.

 

How does the amplified sound compare to the acoustic sound? This may be an indication as to whether it's a string or pre-amp problem.

 

As for a high action, downtuning releases pull on the nut and allows the neck to relax backward. If anything this would lower the action.

 

I'd also have a luthier take a look at the action, as it looks like you may want the height of the saddle reduced & this has to be done well or the piezo won't work properly.

 

G.

[Professor Monkey]

Oooh. Thanks Geoff!

 

The amplified sound is pretty similar to the acoustic sound although I can hear the treble a bit better. The amplifier is just magnifying the effect.

 

I'm actually using a thumb pick and planning on buying some Alaska Piks. However, I still have a problem of basses drowning out the treble when I use just finger pads.

 

It may be that the action isn't high at all and I still need to develop the finger strength necessary to finger the notes.

[The Geoff]

I've had 12s with very low action that didn't take a lot more effort, although it's always a bit like driving a truck......

 

 

Try new strings first. And check that the nut doesn't need lowering. When you hold down the string between the 2nd & 3rd frets you should only be able to slip the proverbial cigarette paper between the 1st fret & the string i.e. all but touching.

 

If there's any more gap than that the nut needs fettling (old Leicestershire word) but with its being a 12er, I'd let a luthier do it. It's dead easy to blow a nut by overfiling.

 

G.

[Professor Monkey]

Alright.

 

So get heavy gauge strings rather than the typical regular gauge?

 

The reason I'm wanting a lower action is because I have quite a few hammer ons and pull offs that I need to do in the song and I'm not able to do so (which sorta makes me not want to get a heavier gauge).

 

Although, as I'm playing more and more, I really do think it's just a case of not having the finger strength. I'm finding that I can play parts of the song that I couldn't play yesterday. Perhaps just a simple string change will fix all my problems! I'll report back Friday when I buy my strings!

[Larryz]

Take it in to the shop and pay the $20 to $50 set up fee...they'll adjust the truss and saddle, measure your string height and check the piezo for you and even change the strings if needed...I think my suggestion would be to run it direct to a PA and tweek around a little and/or try a different guitar through your Crate and see if you have the same experiance as different amps can change the whole enchalada...I like running my acoustic/electrics through my Fishman Solo PA and get better sound than most amps in comparrison...can't wait to try my latest nylon Taylor through my Carvin (I;m just being too lazy so far to comment on this combo)...

[Professor Monkey]

I just replaced the strings with a regular gauge nanoweb and they are sounding SO much better. I didn't realize how much dirt was on the old strings until I touched the new set.

 

The balance is much better and should improve as soon as I get some finger picks to match the thumb pick.

[GreySeraph]

a good setup means everything, but just in the event that you can't change strings, you will have to alter your picking technique. If you raise your guitar from being horizontal, you can play the bass strings a bit more towards the neck and the treble a bit more towards the bridge, in an effort to even the sound. The same can be done when the bass gets drowned out (like from not having enough tension in the strings when dropping to a low C or B): you would just play the bass MUCH closer to the bridge.

[whitefang]

Wow!

 

I improved the action on my 12-string by simply replacing the bridge saddle with a "shorter" one. But, I tuned mine in a standard "12-string tuning". D-G-C-F-A-D(I think?). And play it with a pick. When I upstroke when finger picking, I miss the accompanying "partner" string. And I never had a treble problem.

Whitefang

[Caevan O’Shite]

FWIW, I know a guy with a very nice, fairly pricey Taylor twelve-string; he's had it for a while, and lately had been dissatisfied with its feel, response and tone. Two visits to a guy near here who specializes in acoustic/flat-top guitar repair and set-up, who used to work for Taylor, and my friend says the guitar has never played or sounded better, or even as good as it does now- even when brand-new, acoustically or plugged-in. The guy really zeroed-in on getting the nut, fret-work, and bridge-saddle just-right for the guitars owner and the way he plays. (I believe the second visit was "on the house" or included in the cost of the initial work.)

[Terrell]

Remember 12 strings before coated strings? Jeesh!

 

Exhausting...

[The Geoff]

You use *coated* strings?

 

G.

[Caevan O’Shite]

You use *coated* strings?

 

G.

 

Sure. Coated with chili, hot-wing-sauce, pizza, grease...

[Professor Monkey]

Well.. I just got some ProPik fingertones and they really help balance out the sound now.

 

But now I've run into a technique problem..

 

Barre chords on a 12 string. Is there a special way to do them? I'm trying to play a part where I hold down two strings next to each other with one finger but only one out of the pair is ringing out. Is this an issue of finger strength?

[The Geoff]

As I said above - make sure the nut is cut accurately & as low as it is right to do so. This will make a huge difference to the chording when combined with a bridge saddle cut to the correct height. And as I said, playing a 12 is always a bit like driving a truck.......

 

G.

[Professor Monkey]

Will do.

 

2 more weeks until I head home again and I can take the guitar to a luthier.