Why are arranger keyboards so expensive?

[HAMEGZ]

Ever looked at the style names ? I have a Korg Pa500 and it doesn't take a lot to decipher the songs name, hook and rhythm the style is modeled after.

[burningbusch]

thanks for enlightening us. I figured the high cost must be related to the styles.

 

what struck me also having listened to a few demos online is how some styles are blatantly copied from a hit record. For example, there is a note-for-note perfect copy of U2s "Still haven't found what I'm looking for", the bass, guitars & drums were identical. I've also spotted a "90's brit pop" style (or similar) that was identical to Coldplay's "In my place". Many styles were instantly recognisable.

 

Firstly, I don't see the point in these styles. It seems to me that they are so recognisable that they can only be used to perform the original song. I would favour something more generic.

 

Secondly, what's going on here? Has Yamaha done a deal with the record label? Presumably this adds to the cost also.

 

I'm sure Yamaha doesn't pay a penny for the rights to these styles. They only sound like the "note-for-note" version if you play the exact chords and melody and even then it won't play EXACTLY like the original as it's style not a full MIDI version of the song. If you play different chord progressions/melodies, or turn off parts or play at a different tempo it's going to sound different. If you think they can only be used for one song, you simply lack imagination. Yes, recognizable songs are often used as the basis for these styles. The Tyros 4 comes with 500 styles. There are not 500 "generic" styles out there. Also, you can find user created styles that ARE designed to be played with one specific song. I assume that people who play arrangers live would prefer to have a style of "Dock of the Bay" vs. playing back a straight MIDI file.

 

The styles found on the high-end arranger keyboards are some of the best MIDI programming you're going to find anywhere, when comes to covering traditional music styles. They are infinitely better than the free crap out on the web and superior to "professional" MIDI files because they are expressly created for these workstation, e.g. using Mega Voice.

 

If you think you can do better than the example below using a "pro" keyboard, go for it.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Busch.

[Sven Golly]

Here's an example:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcLL3331lww

 

7:30 (don't know the name of the tune but you've heard it before!)

8:00 (to a lesser extent, nice keyboard guitar playing btw)

 

 

7:30 - Maroon 5, "This Love"

8:00 - Dire Straits, "Sultans of Swing"

 

That entire demo is jammed with obvious tune references, from "Everybody Needs Somebody To Love" by the Blues Brothers off the top, through Clapton (Tears in Heaven), Survivor (Eye Of The Tiger), Air Supply ("Even The Nights Are Better"), hell, even the theme to "Dallas" at around 10:20.

 

Arrangers are made specifically for people who want to recreate songs that people know. Workstations are for people who want to create NEW songs (generalization, but go with me on this).

 

Incidentally, next time you're in front of a Yamaha Motif XF, go to Performance mode and select the "Big Watches" performance, play Eb, Bbm, and Fm (1, 2, and 1 bar respectively) and voila: "Clocks" by Coldplay, thereby proving there's lots of overlap in the Yamaha customer base.

[DaveMcM]

Arrangers are made specifically for people who want to recreate songs that people know. Workstations are for people who want to create NEW songs (generalization, but go with me on this).

 

I know what you are saying and I agree, but only on the surface. Like I mentioned earlier, the pro-level arrangers have the same kind of sequencing/editing, sampling, sound design, etc. that workstations have. If you covered up the front panel buttons pertaining to styles, you would be looking at another typical workstation. But there are definite advantages to uncovering the style section. As inspiration for writing a new song, it is great to be able to select a drum beat and have an entire band play along with you following whatever you play on the keyboard. Not that you will keep all of the style tracks for the end product, but having them there can lead you in directions you may not have thought of simply by playing a single sound or just with a drum beat. It is also just plain fun to jam along with a band sometimes. Speaking of recording, the pro arrangers have the ability to record audio along with what is generated by the keyboard itself, both played live and from the arranger section. If you want to get a quick demo of a new tune down including vocals (and even harmonies) to pass along to collaborators, it can be much easier to be able to create the entire demo right from a single instrument without having to deal with a computer and outboard gear.

 

So while I agree with your statement on one hand, on the other hand, you are not seeing the whole picture so to speak.

[Sven Golly]

So while I agree with your statement on one hand, on the other hand, you are not seeing the whole picture so to speak.

 

The question was "why do arrangers have sounds that are exactly like songs I recognize?", that's why I provided the answer (generalization, as I stated ) that I did.

 

I've spent a lot of time playing around with the Tyros3 at my local store, and it absolutely kicks the ass of my Motif ES in some ways... it's not the right tool for me, but it's definitely a monster instrument. The Tyros4 looks even better (and, as frustrations with other instrumentalists like drummers and bass players increase, it looks more and more like it might become the right tool for me ).

 

 

[Synthoid]

I do wonder why the Tyros keyboards have only 61 keys... with sounds and styles that good, you'd want at least 76.

[CEB]

I have wondered for ever why keyboards in general cost what they do? The electronics parts they are made with cost almost nothing, the plastic REALLY COSTS NOTHING! WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ARE MADE WITH PLASTIC! ....

 

Because if they weren't all these modern keyboard players would cry and moan that it weighs too much. Why back in my day we had to carry our Rhodes and Hammond Model RT-3 on our back to the gig uphill.... both ways.

[DaveMcM]

The question was "why do arrangers have sounds that are exactly like songs I recognize?", that's why I provided the answer (generalization, as I stated ) that I did.

 

Oops, sorry. I misread what you wrote.

[HAMEGZ]

And the support market seems to be big for them AFA 3rd party styles to download. Just came from the Korg PA forum where a heated discussion took place regarding some new Mexican/Spanish styles made available. The styles are very authentic (if you will) to the genre they are emulating, and the point was made that they are not the typical Latin bossa nova styles Americans think of when they see/hear an arranger. These boards are being used outside the US , There are even Turkish, Chinese, and other ethnic specific boards.

I agree about the scratchpad concept. Handy and quick. AFA canned

rhythm playing we have had Band In A Box for years, havent we?

[montunoman]

I do wonder why the Tyros keyboards have only 61 keys... with sounds and styles that good, you'd want at least 76.

 

Yeah that frustrates a lot of arranger players. Yamaha only makes 76/88 in their lower line arrangers. If you want 76 or 88 key top of the line arranger Korg, Ketron, the old Rolands (now roland isn't making a top of the line arranger) are what's available in the US.

[konaboy]

i might have bought a top of the line arranger. i have been flirting with the thought of picking up a used Tyros, there seem to plenty of them for sale now that the owners are upgrading to the latest incarnation.

 

For this reason I spent a while playing on a Tyros 3. Unfortunately I found the keyboard sounds to be miserable. The acoustic grand pianos were fine, but the electric pianos and clavs were really terrible. The majority of the presets were DX sounding patches, or various layers with other sounds. THe velocity switching was badly done. The organs weren't much better. I guess I've spent too much time with my beloved Electros (I'm not a fan of the Motif electric piano samples either).

 

It seems to me that Yamaha have focused their efforts on the guitar, woodwind and string voices. It's a real shame, if the basic keyboard voices don't inspire me then it's not for me. I didn't even bother experimenting with the styles.

 

Edit: btw, I even tried a Tyros 4, to my surprise there wasn't any improvement in the rhodes department, same old patches.

[Synthoid]

Are the sound-editing capabilities on the Tyros as deep as the Motif?

[DaveMcM]

Are the sound-editing capabilities on the Tyros as deep as the Motif?

 

Since this thread wasn't specific to Yamaha, and since I don't work for Korg, I really suggest you take a look at the Korg Pa2X Pro. It has a very acceptable feeling 76 note synth-action keybed and has the same level of sound editing as on Korg's workstation keyboards.