How many patches do you grab in a tune?

[J. Dan]

This is an interesting thread as it draws attention to the many different ways you can approach your setup from a logistical standpoint. I used to switch between combi and patch modes and switch patches manually during songs on various keyboards. Now I stay in song mode on one keyboard and combi on the other - even if I'm just playing a simple piano part on one board. That way I can arrange my "songs" in order of the set list and increment through them without having to think about what patch is where, etc - it just sets everything up for me.

 

As such, rather than changing patches mid-song, I use splits to set up every part I'm going to play across my two keyboards (one a 61 and the other a 76). I may have as many as 6 or more zones set up for a song, and each of those zones may have layers. If there is a sequence, then there are additional parts going on as well.

[NewImprov]

Very interesting thread, nerdy, yes, but interesting.

 

My setup is a Hammond XK-1 and 2 controllers, an 88 and a 61, controlling a laptop running a bunch of plugins hosted in Brainspawn Forte. In one of my bands, the setup for the whole gig is Wurly on the 88, Clav on the 61, and various Hammond sounds. It's almost not worth taking the laptop, but it's what I've got and I love the patches I'm using (Scarbee samples)

 

For my other band, I play LH bass on the 88, and use a ton of different setups. In this band, Forte really comes through for me, I don't think I could make everything work so well with a hardware solution.

 

I have setups, called Scenes in Forte, for each tune, plus a number of generic setups that I can jump to for improvs, or to use for starting points for new tunes. I use a pair of buttons on the 61 key to step through Scenes, and I could set everything up with a set list in Forte before the show, except this band doesn't use set lists and we just call out tunes on the fly.

 

Usually, the lower keyboard is bass on the lower end, I use 3 different patches, Organ pedals from VB3, Scarbee P-Bass samples and a bass synth patch from NI's Prophet 5 emulator, sometimes layering 2 of them depending on the tune. Upper half of the 88 is usually electric piano, Wurly, Rhodes, Pianet or even RMI, Acoustic on only 1 tune. Split points change between tunes, and some tunes I have the upper side transposed down an octave for more range. The 61 key is usually either clav, mellotron or some sort of synth, often with splits and layers. I also use the drum pads on the 61 to trigger sound effects, percussion or just wierd self-running synth patches.

 

The coolest thing is that one button press on the 61 can reconfigure the whole setup! I really like being able to conceptualize both keyboards as being part of one instrument, I'll sometimes use the controllers on the 61 to dynamically modify the sound on the 88, or use the expression pedal plugged into the 61 on the sound from the 88. It takes a fair amount of programming to set all this up, but on the gig, it's a piece of cake. Unless the laptop crashes. Then I play hammond all night. Actually, the laptop setup has been remarkably stable and dependable so far.

[The Real MC]

The worst I ever had was playing Frankenstein. Back in the days when I gigged with a Minimoog, Memorymoog, Moog Source, and Moog Liberation (yeah I was crazy and brave), I must have had six or eight patches on that one song alone. Sure got a reaction though, ESPECIALLY when a big line dancing act walked in the bar and started dancing to it.

 

I've been in a lot of bands. Depending on the genre the band was playing I either had a pile of different patches, or a rotating set of piano hammond and brass patches.

 

My Kurzweil MIDIBoard was great for switching patches, I even had it set up to change my effects.

[zukskywalker]

Splits, layers, patch changes within songs. All of that, and its big fun up to a point. Beyond that point there is patch changing between songs and organizing patches among multiple boards which can become daunting. Especially in the dark.

Staying on point, I've probably used four or five patch changes within a song at the most.

Now I have a vision of using Ableton just to control patch changes in stride automatically across the entire rig. Sounds nuts, I know, but I think it'll be relatively straightforward(no clips,just midi commands). I reach for the sound, and its already there. Badabing!

I don't want to change patches anymore, just play and maybe warp my sounds a bit(drawbars are a different story).

I know there are probably easier ways but I'm kinda stuck with Live at the moment and enjoying it.

 

[Michelle ggurl]

Now I have a vision of using Ableton just to control patch changes in stride automatically across the entire rig. Sounds nuts, I know, but I think it'll be relatively straightforward(no clips,just midi commands). I reach for the sound, and its already there. Badabing!

 

Wow, this is interesting, how do you do that?? I have Live but all I use it for is in my home studio to write songs, map out arrangements, etc. Are you using softsynths or using Live's MIDI implementation to control hardware keyboards' patch changes across scenes, or something?

[zukskywalker]

I haven't quite "done it" all yet but I'm running multiple hardware synths and softsynths/vst's. The hardware synths are the easy part, but the softsynths add other challenges. Starting with clonewheels, B4, Vb3 or others, the issue becomes one of pre-loads as Live by itself does not seem to provide the ability to callup vst's without some intermediate software like Cantibale. And even then it doesn't seem to allow the calling up of specific "patches" within the vst's. Even a hardware device like the receptor poses new challenges. I'm not sure that Ableton or even intermediate software can address specific patch changes within vst's.

On the upside, and in terms of hardware synths Ableton is a beautiful thing. Live, when synced to a live performance, can control patch changes within a song, measure by measure. Fantastic! Within clips, empty or not, you can insert midi program change commands.

Just imagine simply playing and never having to change patches manually. Flute for a few measures, vibes for the next, and clav on the bridge. All automatically.

In the industry in general many things are humanly impossible to achieve in real time and pre-programming is the word of the day. This is not new, just a different application of existing practices.

[888000000]

I have decided to split up the sounds somewhat on different boards. Otherwise it can get a bit to complicated. On Cinema Show, which is the song with most patch changes on one instrument, i have reduced the patches on the synth solo from, 9 i think i had from the beginning, down to 7. To that it is 2 different sounds on the organ, some mellotron and i play the first part on guitar.

The button pushing is really important and needs to be practiced.

 

[NewImprov]

Splits, layers, patch changes within songs. All of that, and its big fun up to a point. Beyond that point there is patch changing between songs and organizing patches among multiple boards which can become daunting. Especially in the dark.

Staying on point, I've probably used four or five patch changes within a song at the most.

Now I have a vision of using Ableton just to control patch changes in stride automatically across the entire rig. Sounds nuts, I know, but I think it'll be relatively straightforward(no clips,just midi commands). I reach for the sound, and its already there. Badabing!

I don't want to change patches anymore, just play and maybe warp my sounds a bit(drawbars are a different story).

I know there are probably easier ways but I'm kinda stuck with Live at the moment and enjoying it.

 

There's an add-on for Brainspawn Forte called EHco that allows you to process and send MIDI to external HW the same way you would control VST's hosted in Forte. I haven't sprung for it yet, but it seems like it could do what you are talking about.

 

I used Live as a host before moving to Forte, and I encountered the problems you mentioned in your later post about Live not being able to call up setting on a VST. Forte's Scenes do exactly this, tweak the VST parameters to where you want them for the tune, update the Scene, and the changes are just there. I haven't spent any significant time in Mainstage, since my live rig is based around a PC laptop, but I think Forte is the best live host out there.

[Michelle ggurl]

On the upside, and in terms of hardware synths Ableton is a beautiful thing. Live, when synced to a live performance, can control patch changes within a song, measure by measure. Fantastic! Within clips, empty or not, you can insert midi program change commands.

 

Cool, thanks for elaborating! I don't have a performance situation where I'd need to do this currently, but it's nice to know the possibility is there. I just find Live such an intuitive and easy program to work with ...

[Jazz+]

1 or none.

[Sven Golly]

1 or none.

 

Well, we all have to know our limitations.

[Jon May]

Joe - I've always heard that change in Remedy as Wurlie. But no biggie. Attitude trumps all!

 

Our band is named The Remedy, which is kinda funny as we are a of an age where most of us have had major surgery, or have a bad back etc

 

Back on topic - one board simplicity for me - the NE2. I might flick between some flavor of piano and organ on a tune, or between piano flavors, as in...REMEDY! (electric grand to Wurlie

[Joe P]

Joe - I've always heard that change in Remedy as Wurlie. But no biggie. Attitude trumps all!

 

Our band is named The Remedy, which is kinda funny as we are a of an age where most of us have had major surgery, or have a bad back etc

 

Back on topic - one board simplicity for me - the NE2. I might flick between some flavor of piano and organ on a tune, or between piano flavors, as in...REMEDY! (electric grand to Wurlie

 

Jon,

Well now I will have to listen to it again! We've been playing it for almost 10 years, so I learned it a long time ago....thanks, mate!

Regards,

Joe

[VanB]

My total patches per song (what I thought the OP meant):

 

For the 80s cover band or the Floyd tribute, as many as 7. The worst is when I need to cover guitar or backing choir parts along with the usual piano/organ/synth/string/horn/fx stuff.

 

For the original Americana band, 3 max: organ + piano + an infrequent pad or horn patch. Low-stress.

 

I use 2 or 3 boards, keep splits & layers to a minimum. All on the fly, no pre-planned setups; too many bands, too many singers who call audibles. ;-) I try to always have *something* usable available for either hand in case I miss a button-press. And my cheat-sheets are patches, not chords...

[clpete]

I try to keep changes to no changes during a song but I could be using 6 or seven different sounds.

 

Most of the time and most bands I have been playing one or two basic key sounds per song. Everything I play on the lower board is always layered with 2 or 3 sounds. This includes pianos where I use 2 to 3 layered piano sounds.

 

Playing with bands where I need a lot of different sounds, like now, I use the upper board (XK1) to play sounds set up in a SET-UP on the lower (RD700). I have a number of SET-UPS programmed with 10 to 12 different sounds that are set up to be received on different midi channels. Some of these SET UPS are also my basic RD Piano/EP patches. I then have a bank on the XK1 set up to access the sounds, so using the SET UP and the XK bank I can access as many as 16 different sounds with one button changes on the XK.