Stereo rig?

[Synthoid]

I run mono anyway. I'm just not as dogmatic about it.

 

 

http://www.hamovhotov.com/picturegallery/thumbs/lrg-500-dod_playing_piano.jpg

 

[bhodaway10]

I had the KP500sn but I ended up selling it. It did make the privia I've been borrowing sound very good. It's also pretty large - as big as two PA cabinets and for a cabinet with two 12's, I felt like it still needed some "punch" like Motion Sound's subwoofer to get that "definition" of sound that I would prefer.

 

A friend of mine uses the smallest motion sound - kp100 and a subwoofer and that works pretty well.

 

That being said, right now if I play piano, I only use one EV 360 speaker and run mono. It's just more convenient for me and IMHO, people can't tell the difference.

 

[Adan]

I fully understand the arguments for mono v. stereo. I don't understand apparent urge to win converts. There's alot of useful discussion on this forum helping people understand the pro's and con's of each. Beyond that, just let people choose based on their situation.

 

Because most digital acoustic pianos sound better in stereo, this an issue that everyone has to grapple with constantly. So the discussion bears being beaten into the ground. To an extent . . .

 

Nord deserves tremendous praise in this area. They suffered unrelenting critcism for a long time about how their APs sounded in mono. They responded and in fact went from worst to first.

[AnotherScott]

That being said, right now if I play piano, I only use one EV 360 speaker and run mono. It's just more convenient for me and IMHO, people can't tell the difference.

Yeah, that's also one of the arguments on the side of "just get me decent sound out front, that's good enough, after that I'm optimizing for myself"--because probably while most people in the audience can tell the difference between crap sound and good sound, far fewer can tell the difference between good sound and great sound. Though to take the other side of the argument, it's possible that an audience member may feel the band sounds "better" when you've tweaked that extra quality out of your sound, even if they don't know why.

 

Though it does remind me of one of my favorite posts I read on this forum, sorry I don't know whose it was, but paraphrasing, "The sound quality of the keyboards in the house doesn't matter. You're the keyboard player. The soundman isn't go to turn your fader up anyway."

[Bobadohshe]

To clear things up, I want to run stereo for selfish reasons. I do mostly small jazz gigs and don't usually run into a PA.

Basically I want a more inspiring sound.

 

You will be much happier running in stereo then. I speak from experience here and have done many a mono small jazz gig and many a stereo small jazz gig. I run my CP33 in stereo and am much more inspired and satisfied with the sound and it makes me play a hell of a lot better and have much more fun.

[SpaceNorman]

You will be much happier running in stereo then. I speak from experience here and have done many a mono small jazz gig and many a stereo small jazz gig. I run my CP33 in stereo and am much more inspired and satisfied with the sound and it makes me play a hell of a lot better and have much more fun.

 

^^^ This!!! ^^^ When it comes to the question or stereo vs mono - I have no problem ignoring all scientific arguments and simply go with what my ears like - and my ears LOVE how my rig sounds when I'm sitting in the middle of my personal stereo field. In all honesty - I don't worry how much of it comes across to the FOH (although I do send a Left and Right channel send from my keyboard mixer to the FOH board) - the way it sounds to me makes it worth the extra expense and effort as far as I'm concerned.

[Bill H.]

Wow that's a lot of responses while I slept.

 

To clear things up, I want to run stereo for selfish reasons. I do mostly small jazz gigs and don't usually run into a PA.

Basically I want a more inspiring sound. I currently have a Mackie SRM350 which sounds pretty good and would consider getting another as they're not too heavy.

 

I looked at the bose systems and the specs are confusing. I though they were stereo as they have a stereo input for iPods etc, but perhaps these are summed to mono - I can't tell.

 

Darren

 

You just jumped into a running argument that's been going on for several years in this forum - sorry.

 

You are right IMO that getting a digital piano away from coming out of a a single point source (one speaker) makes it sound more like a real piano. A real piano has more of an omnidirectional dispersion pattern than a traditional two-way cabinet like your SRM350 will give you.

 

A Bose L1 is not that kind of system though, and throws the sound out in ways that make it difficult to tell where it's coming from. I've never played a piano through one, but it would probably be a step up from what you have. It's not stereo though - not without two of them.

 

Or you could just add another 350, which will give you a more realistic piano sound despite the discussions in this thread if that's the only amplification you have.

 

These guys are arguing mostly (I think) about whether or not to monitor in stereo, or send a stereo feed to FOH which is really another situation.

[Dave Ferris]

[wineandkeyz]

If you and Tony are THAT self-conscious about running mono, perhaps you need to do a little self-evaluation.

 

WTF is YOUR problem, and what do you mean by that?

 

Are you a stereo Nazi? Does using stereo mean you are compensating for somethng? I eagerly await your reply.

http://www.macosxaudio.com/forums/download/file.php?avatar=4674_1263587685.gif

 

 

Tony, I was responding by Kanker's "selfish" comment and to your earlier post:

 

Thanks, but no thanks. I dont need to know what HE is doing to give an answer about what I AM doing. He asked what we are doing. But thank you for playing.

 

Both came across to me as snarky, so I responded in kind. If that's not the spirit in which you intended, I apologize.

 

I'm no stereo nazi, but I do prefer monitoring my keyboards in stereo when it makes sense. As I posted earlier, I match my onstage monitoring to the FOH -- if it's mono, that's what I use onstage.

[allan_evett]

think of how a piano presents sonically, in a room, to the listening ear; that's right, it's not in stereo....

 

........ At any rate, for whatever reason, many people do find that stereo piano patches often sound more authentic (or at least more pleasing?) than mono ones. I wonder if stereo samples are necessarily taken from the player's perspectives (one mic nearer the bass strings, the other nearer the high notes), or if some stereo samples may be taken from the audience perspective (i.e. lid up, left mic near the keyboard side, right mic near the opposite side).

 

Much as I prefer to run my piano in mono, FOH, there is a definite degree of authentic, and pleasing sound when the piano tone is coming right back at me in stereo. I've discovered this recently while utilizing the on-board speakers in my FP-4 (which - very thoughtfully on Roland's part - can be be switched on, or off.). While the L/Mono output of the FP-4 collapses well to mono, and I do run a single Peavey PR12D from my mixer for onstage monitoring, having the option of the piano tone being right 'in my face' is a good thing.

 

 

To clear things up, I want to run stereo for selfish reasons. I do mostly small jazz gigs and don't usually run into a PA.

Basically I want a more inspiring sound.

 

You will be much happier running in stereo then. I speak from experience here and have done many a mono small jazz gig and many a stereo small jazz gig. I run my CP33 in stereo and am much more inspired and satisfied with the sound and it makes me play a hell of a lot better and have much more fun.

 

Agreed, Bobby. Whether it be on-board speakers, or well positioned on-stage monitors, hearing the piano in stereo is inspiring, and fun. Question: do you position the monitors L/R relative to your playing position at the CP33 ? I find that the FP-4's on-board speakers sound as if I'm sitting at a grand piano with a percentage of the lows coming in from the left / highs from the right, then a mix of low/mid/high hitting center ( that part being the mono ideal that I want the audience to hear, when I'm running through a PA).

 

 

As the mono vs. stereo discussion continues, is anyone running in-ear monitors doing this, and if so, how are you running the mixes? Together with on-stage monitors?

 

This has been the ideal situation, from previous experience. In the road band with which I last worked all of us were on IEM's. The drummer, who acted as monitor engineer - with an Allen & Heath MixWizard in his rack - would send a monitor mix to an input channel of my mixer (one not routed to my summed FOH output), and he would leave keyboards out of my mix. I would then run my IEM's from my mixer's headphone output (alternately from my wireless belt pack, connected to a 'control room output' on the mixer - if I was using my AX-7). That way I could hear my keys in stereo, in ear, plus adjust the monitor mix level vs. my keyboard levels. We did have a pair of Mackie SRM-350's across the front, though; the bass player and lead guitarist (both lead vocalists as well) often found it helpful to leave one ear bud out, and use the live cabinet sound as a reference. When we added a 2nd guitarist/pedal steel/utility guy I had a little tougher time hearing myself; so on some gigs I would use my Traynor K4, and leave one ear bud out as well. I think that running IEM's is a great idea - provided everything is well coordinated tech-wise.

 

 

 

[Tonysounds]

A couple things:

 

Im not out to convert anyone, I have no horse in this race. I love the sound of stereo, but I have come to a point where if I have to give up control over what people hear coming from me, I will do what I need to do to improve that impression. And I can better do that if I know what they are hearing. My rig sounds pretty badass, and Im still pretty impressed with it in mono. In mono, I know what I hear is what the engineer/sound guy gets (which is pretty much the end of the control I have!). I play in louder rock situations, and whatever can be done to cut back on signal floating around the stage and feeding microphones only helps improve the sonic clarity, and going to mono helps on that end. Seeing other bands and evaluating what Im hearing has also influenced my choice to go back to mono: the bands Ive seen with the tightest sonic presentation have keyboards and guitars (and everything else) in mono. Its also another factor that helped wean me off my leslies and go to the Ventilator. I also feel it has tightened up my own playing as everything doesnt sound so lush because of chorus/spread; now I have to make better note and rhythmic choices! I even monitor in mono at home now. Nuff said on that.

 

Allan, regarding in ears, LOVE em. Dont get to use them most of the time. Just a word of warning: the one bud in, one bud out thing is by all accounts the worst thing you can do for your hearing. Its hard to commit to in ears, but if you do, you have to use both buds. Ive read a ton of stuff on this by audiologists and ear bud makers, and they all agree that you really screw up your hearing with one bud. (It has to do with the escalating volume war, and the tendency to then turn up the ear bud ear to better match the non-ear bud ear, and the muscle exertion of the ears response.) The guys Ive played with using that approach sort of proved it to me with the volume creep. Just be careful!

 

And to WineNkeys, my snarky response was directly applied to AnotherScotts below comment, which was off-base (which happens when people dont truly READ the information; in this case, the OP asked is anyone running stereo); Scotts preaching about broad answers, when in fact, he didnt actually read the OPs question, nor my response (which was appropriate).

 

 

I think you have to be careful about broad answers without knowing the specifics of what someone is doing.

 

That said, I could be in much worse company than Kankers; quite a few of us could take some lessons from him (musically, if not in diplomacy!). Personally, I think hes a brilliant musician from the clips Ive seen; hes also smart, and has a comedic wit with good musical timing.

[wineandkeyz]

Tony, I hear you on all points, including taking advice from Kanker. I used to run strictly stereo onstage and sent a stereo mix to the FOH for them to do with what they will. Then, based on some of Kanker's posts, I started to pay more attention to what happened out front when the FOH is mono. In some cases, patches that sounded great through a stereo stage mix disappeared almost completely from the mono mains due to phase cancellation, etc. That's when I started matching my stage setup to the FOH. As you said, it gives me a better idea of what is being heard out front. (That is, assuming that the soundguy actually has the keys in the mix!)

But I can't believe you actually went so far as to run mono at home, though! Man, that's dedication!

Peace

[AnotherScott]

my snarky response was directly applied to AnotherScotts below comment, which was off-base (which happens when people dont truly READ the information; in this case, the OP asked is anyone running stereo)

In that case, neither of us answered his question correctly, since the actual answer to "is anyone running stereo" would be "yes, a number of people do." :-)

 

Anyway, as for people truly reading the information, think I read the OP's information correctly. But as I said, "You read his first line literally; I read it as defining his target group to whom he wanted to address the rest of the message" so we certainly read it differently. I did not realize the perspective you were coming from until your subsequent response explained how you read it differently than I did. I'm sorry if the response came off accusatory.

 

In general, though, I do believe that "one" (not necessarily "you") should be careful about broad answers... and I admit I mis-read your message as being intended as guidance for the OP as opposed to simply describing what you personally did.

 

[DanS]

That's it, all you snarky douches, I'm going quad.

[VLH]

My latest system--still for small spaces, jazz trio or quartet-- is to run two monitors stereo at the keyboard and one mono summed out to a larger combo amp. I am running an old Yamaha P80, which has two 3.5 mm outs and two 1/4 outs in the stand l/r r confinguration. I have two of the old Bose bookshelf speakers previsously recommended by Learjeff. The 3.5 mm go to the bookshelf speakers, which aim so that I'm in the stereo middle. The l/r summed out goes to a Fishman Soloamp (a line array kind of like a Bose). I've gotten compliments on the sound. I like it better than the other solutions I've tried. It sounds better in some situations than in others. Venues are small (50-150 people), and the music is not loud. I do like hearing the sound from multiple locations--I get more of a sense of space, that seems to help me overcome more of the unpleasant disconnect between physical action and sound generation that's the underlying problem with a digital acoustic piano.

[kanker.]

I think you have to be careful about broad answers without knowing the specifics of what someone is doing.

 

That said, I could be in much worse company than Kankers; quite a few of us could take some lessons from him (musically, if not in diplomacy!). Personally, I think hes a brilliant musician from the clips Ive seen; hes also smart, and has a comedic wit with good musical timing.

You are much too kind. I could write the same stuff about you...

 

I am definitely the most vocal around here on the mono topic, although there are a few other guys who are pretty hardcore too. I can really only explain my own position, why I try to 'convert' folks - I'm interested in keyboard players in general. We all joke about how ignored we are, how no one notices us, etc.... I firmly believe that one thing that we can do collectively to improve our 'audibility' on stage is to provide the best possible sound on the stage AND in the house. You simply cannot accomplish this with any degree of consistency in stereo. It is impossible.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't be concerned if other keyboard players are wonderfully inspired on stage but sound cruddy in the house because none of this marvelous stereo translates, but I can't help myself. I want ALL of us to be heard, and this is better accomplished in mono for reasons that have truly been beaten to death.

 

Fair warning - I'll continue to beat this topic to death. I just dig keyboards and keyboard players way too much to let it alone.

[Joe Muscara]

Wotta guy!

[MikeT156]

Kevin:

 

I run in stereo, but usually, I stack my PA speakers on top of each other. I set the pan on my channels in the middle, so both L/R are coming out of both speaker cabinets. I believe I get the benefit of stereo sample sounds, without the audience losing anything because of stereo separation. I don't play big rooms anymore, and there's no FOH system, just mine. I keep my speaker cabinets behind me and off to one side at an angle so I hear exactly what the audience hears. I don't play very loud, and it works.

 

So I see no need to run in mono and lose the benefit of stereo samples. I don't get a rise out of mono piano sounds.

 

I believe you play larger venues and what you have previously posted about why you run mono makes sense to me. I hope you'll forgive me if I don't believe it applies to my setup.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[kanker.]

If I'm reading you correctly Mike, you're running mono. Even if you spread your speakers, by sending an equal amount of both channels into each speaker, you're going mono.

[mate stubb]

Yup. Center pan == mono.

[David Loving]

I cannot hear a sound quality penalty in mono. In lightening my rig - when we play combo style out of amps there's less gear to mess with - half the cables, less chances for hums - less gear - and like this Saturday merely using the joint's PA, even less gear. When I played a U1 at a gig a couple of weeks ago it sounded like it was from one spot. It is a good acquired taste, IMO.

[888000000]

When i sum to mono on my Nord Stage the sound gets a bit thin compared to normal stereo. It is probably some phase cancellations going on. I wonder if they do it differently on the Nord Piano? (A new mono sample for the Nords would be nice. I would probably run everything in mono then.)

 

So to choose between a full sound or better presence but with a thinner sound i wonder if it isn't better to pull the panning together some in the foh? To my ears most of the piano sound is placed around the middle of the stereo perspective anyway. None of the piano samples i have tried in the Stage is extreme in the stereo perspective.

It is important for me to hear my boards well and that they are sounding good in my ears, and at the same time it is critical to hear the others musicians good to. So i think i am leaning the 'in ear' way.

 

Hans

[Tonysounds]

Didn't Nord implement an update for the Stage allowing a button push to make the Nord pianos mono?

 

THe NORd Piano has that same option.

[MikeT156]

by Kanker:

 

If I'm reading you correctly Mike, you're running mono. Even if you spread your speakers, by sending an equal amount of both channels into each speaker, you're going mono.

 

The stereo piano samples in my Motif ES8 sound better than the strictly MONO acoustic piano sound when I pan both sides to center. Me thinks I'm getting the best of both worlds.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[ITGITC]

THe NORd Piano has that same option.

 

Could this somehow be akin to the infamous NAND piano? Or iz that just not logical?

 

...could be.

 

I figure it's one or the other... this or that, yes or no, on or off.

 

Sorry. I know it's a stretch. But it's Friday and I simply couldn't help myself.

 

Happy Weekend guyz!

 

Tom

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Venn1110.svg/220px-Venn1110.svg.png

[allan_evett]

I couldn't help myself either, Tom: I 'Svengled' "Nand Piano". NADA; no history there. Tried searching here, even in quotes; guess I was a bit late for that party.

 

Next search: "NORAD Piano". I'm guessing that one might be beneath a mountain near Colorado Springs....

 

Typos are fun; especially on Fridays.

[888000000]

Didn't Nord implement an update for the Stage allowing a button push to make the Nord pianos mono?

 

THe NORd Piano has that same option.

 

Yes, the button is there but the sound get thinner. Maybe it is something i could get used to but i prefer the stereo version.

[ITGITC]

Thanks Allan.

 

My programming classes from college come back to me every so often and I get a bit sidetracked.

 

Regarding the original topic, I'm sticking to my original post: Use your ears.

 

OTOH, Kanker is correct - simplicity and consistency are VERY important when performing live.

 

Manufacturers put stereo outputs on their keyboards. One would think that it would make sense to preserve this throughout the signal chain to FOH.

 

Pros like Kanker know by experience how things work out when performing - often on a different stage every night. His experiences are extremely valuable and we're fortunate to have his input.

 

Plus, as was pointed out earlier, manufacturers - like Nord - have heard our complaints regarding summing L/R to mono. They've improved their samples/programs. Now they sound better in mono and there are specific programs that are designed specifically to sound great in mono. Kudos to Nord (and others).

 

All of us realize that it's the MUSIC that matters. But it's a lot of fun to exchange ideas about the stuff we use to make it... passionately.

 

You guys rawk.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kanker.]

Manufacturers put stereo outputs on their keyboards. One would think that it would make sense to preserve this throughout the signal chain to FOH.

I think the problem is that we are give instruments that are designed to kill two very different birds with one stone- live and studio. While I could argue against much in the way of stereo patches in the studio too, at least the sound is much easier to control in the studio. Stereo makes much more sense in that setting. On the other hand, once you start moving air in a venue....

[mcgoo]

Manufacturers put stereo outputs on their keyboards. One would think that it would make sense to preserve this throughout the signal chain to FOH.

 

Ya gotta remember that manufacturers write patches to drop jaws in music stores. A big stereo spread pad with tons of fx will leave lots of unsuspecting noobies with stars in their eyes, but won't necesarily sit well in a mix (live or recorded).

 

I do run stereo selectively (after all, I have no intention of adding an extra output to my Wurly!), but I am careful about it, and careful about patch programming. We also have the same sound guy at every gig, who is a total absolute geek, with great gear, and great ears. If somethings not working, hes in my face about it, which I love.

 

If I were in the situation that I presume Kevin is often in- that is playing gear other than his own, with a soundman he doesnt know, running thru a system hes never heard, I would absolutely go mono. I understand his hard core attitude about it, as I can only imagine the inconsistency of quality & competence hes been around. In that case, it makes sense to make the signal path as idiot proof as possible. However, I respectfully differ with his iron clad conclusions.

 

I think running stereo in a band setting is a dangerous step, but can be done to good effect when done right. If you dont have a good rapport with the sound engineer, its probably not a good idea.

 

As a side note, and Ive said this before too, a studio environment should not be treated with any less respect when it comes to the stereo / mono debate. If you run everything stereo, I can pretty much guarantee your mixes are muddy.