Kurzweil's KBR B3 sim

[Marillo]

Discounting the genuine clonewheel contenders (Electro etc), how does this compare to the organs found in ROMplers/workstations etc? A cut above?

 

I use an Electro at the mo but it's not ABSOLUTELY essential. Just eyeing up the new SP4-7 and wondering if I could 'get away' with the organ in there...

[MoodyBluesKeys]

The K2661 was not very good, the PC2 is a bit better, the PC3 is considerably better. Leslie emulation is still not quite up to par for someone that really is into organ. However, the next OS release may make improvements.

PC3 into a Neo Ventilator - I don't have the Vent, but have considered it - edit the PC3 voices to remove the internal sim. Kurzweil has actually programmed close to 80 different Leslie emulations in the PC3. I do think it is a good bit ahead of the other brand romplers that I have heard/played.

 

Comparison wise, the Hammond sounds on my PC3 and my Electro 3 do not sound at all the same, the PC3 is darker sounding. However, based on servicing MANY Hammond tonewheel organs over a 30 year period - both are valid expressions.

 

I do sometimes use both boards together, with the Electro providing upper manual, and the PC3 running a KB3 organ for the lower manual (but the two Leslie emulations don't switch together, I could probably make MIDI arrangements to have that occur, but have not done so.

 

Comments on the forum have generally favored the Nord more, but this is my personal opinion. I added the Nord partly for the organs, but a lot of it was having a very light weight board to use.

 

The true purists will very likely prefer the latest Hammond. True drawbars, a large amount of adjustability. But it weighs a good bit more than the Electro. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice. I'm not sure if the SP4 will include KB3 mode at all - the PC1 had the sounds of PC2, but not as much editing, and no KB3 - PC3LE or PC3 might be a better choice.

 

BTW - my avatar shows the Electro over the PC3X (I have both 76 and 88 key PC3's).

 

[Marillo]

Thanks for that reply MoodyBluesKeys...I think the PC4-7 does have the KB3 mode. Maybe Dave from Kurzweil could chip in here?

[Sven Golly]

Thanks for that reply MoodyBluesKeys...I think the PC4-7 does have the KB3 mode. Maybe Dave from Kurzweil could chip in here?

 

Dave doesn't always hang around here, AFAIK... you should post over at the Kurzweil forum at Sonikmatter.com if you want Dave to answer (in a more timely fashion).

 

Frankly, if he's added KC to his daily forum crawl, I'll be disappointed... we need them all focused on updates and more cool gear!

[AnotherScott]

I'm not sure if the SP4 will include KB3 mode at all

 

Yes, it includes KB3 mode. Out of the box, it's a bunch of presets, but you can use an external controller to access the 9 "drawbars" directly, either for live performance, or just to generate your own sets of presets with your preferred drawbar registrations.

[Dave Weiser]

This is correct.

(Of course KC is part of my forum crawl!)

 

There a few KB3 presets in the SP4-7 that are exactly the same as the ones in the PC3.

And you can set the drawbars and other KB3 settings like perc, with a sequencer or external controller.

 

All of the 128 presets are taken directly from the PC3.

Which means that even if you can't see the 30 + velocity switched layers in the Rhodes programs or the release squeaks and thumps in the clavs or the huge effect chains... you will definitely hear them.

 

I've started using my SP4-7 as a top board devoted exclusively to B3 parts - so far so good.

 

You guys can always feel free to email with questions if you're unable to find answers here or on Sonikmatter.

davew@ycrdi.com

 

 

 

 

[Dana.]

Dave, could you comment on the SP4-7's action -- how it compares to the semi-weighted PC3? Is it Fatar or something else? Thanks.

[Ian Benhamou]

As a prominent user of the PC3x and a former Electro 2 user I could tell you that the Nord's B3 is WAY more convincing. Especially the Leslie sim, but also the low end (you can't play LH bass on the PC3, forget it) the Vib/Cho scanner and even the PERC.

 

I'd say though that the biggest thing that bothers me about the PC3 organ is that it almost feels like there's a latency between key down and sound on. I don't know if this is because KB3 is CPU intensive, but it's definitely noticeable.

 

Having said all that, I still use KB3 quite often. Mainly at single keyboard gigs and at rehearsals. In fact, I'm writing this after coming back from a Pink Floyd rehearsal where I only brought my PC3x. I used KB3 in almost every song.

 

For a non-dedicated clonewheel, the PC3 is probably the best organ sound out there. Just the fact that it's an actual model with drawbar control, vib/chorus, perc and a leslie sim already makes it a better organ option than most keyboards in it's category. In a band mix it does an admirable job at covering the B3 thing. Solo, you'll definitely start to hear things that are unrealistic and the latency thing certainly makes it difficult to play idiomatic techniques such as palm smears, single note sputtering, and LH bass.

 

If you're on Facebook, a friend of mine posted a video on my wall of my cover band doing Oye Como Va just the organ solo. If you could get around my questionable playing you'll get a decent idea of what KB3 sounds like live, through a PA over a full band.

 

[Sven Golly]

This is correct.

(Of course KC is part of my forum crawl!)

 

I honestly don't know how you do it, Dave... you must have a special "48 hours in a day" machine or something.

 

[Marillo]

Cheers fellas, and especially Dave, the SP4-7 is really appearing to be an absolute bargain when you consider bang for the buck.

I have one more question...does it feature an arpeggiator? (We do 'Hungry Like the Wolf' in my band and would need that...!)

[Sven Golly]

For those interested in the SP4 series, Kurzweil has posted the manual online, so all those questions can be answered by a quick read.

[Pulse Field]

 

Comparison wise, the Hammond sounds on my PC3 and my Electro 3 do not sound at all the same, the PC3 is darker sounding. However, based on servicing MANY Hammond tonewheel organs over a 30 year period - both are valid expressions.

 

I do sometimes use both boards together, with the Electro providing upper manual, and the PC3 running a KB3 organ for the lower manual (but the two Leslie emulations don't switch together, I could probably make MIDI arrangements to have that occur, but have not done so.

 

Comments on the forum have generally favored the Nord more, but this is my personal opinion. I added the Nord partly for the organs, but a lot of it was having a very light weight board to use.

 

 

 

 

 

my experience has been very similar. KB3 with the onboard Leslie effect sounds great if you listen to it by itself, but as soon as I start to a/b with the Electro 3, there's no comparison. The E3 just has a lot more of the subtle nuances and little sonic variations of a real Hammond. When you listen to them side by side, the PC3 sounds too consistent between notes. It sounds a little like one recorded note that's been pitch-shifted each time instead of several independent notes sounding at once.

 

I've never used Ventilator but there have been several very positive, even glowing, reviews here and elsewhere. As good as the E3 is, Ventilator is supposed to make it even better than the onboard Leslie sim.

[Dglavko]

I have a PC3, PC3X, a ventilator, an EL3, C1 and two Leslies (Pro 145 and 3300), and have spent hours A-B- ing them in various combinations. (Yes I know it's total overkill but...)

 

Conclusions:

 

I love the PC3/PC3X. So much so that I somehow can't bring myself to selling/trading either. (I was supposed to trade one for the the other but, then I'd have no weighted board at home/be unwilling to gig with it as the PC3X is too heavy IMO. I take comfort in the fact that I am not alone in this dilemma.)

 

The PC3's organ and built-in Leslie is decent. The parameters can be tweaked much more so than the Nords. But adding the ventilator makes it much better, almost as good as the Nord. The Leslie sims become virtually identical.

 

So yes the ventilator is necessary IMO, at least until that long awaited PC3 OS update comes along.

 

Once the ventilator is added, the PC3 instantly becomes the best all in one board IMO.

 

Admittedly, the PC3 organs are still a little weak on the low end and it doesn't seem as organic/gritty as the Nords tonewise. That said, I agree that both are realistic expressions of the instrument and cranking the gain function on the Ventilator comes even closer. I suspect that tweaking the PC3 further might generate a perfect match. Perhaps not ideal for jazz organ trios but then that's what the C1/ other dedicated dual manual clones are for.

 

The EL3/C1 simply does not need the Ventilator. The Nord's internal sim is that good. But the Ventilator's gain is better than the Nord's so I think that there is value in adding it even to the Nord.

 

But all of them sound awesome/much better with a real Leslie, as there's no comparison to being in a room/on stage pushing real air, and never will be as long as we are governed by the laws of physics IMO.

[Dave Weiser]

The SP4-7 does not include an arpeggiator.

You would need to step up one notch to the Pc3LE, which has 16 independent arps as well as 16 independent Riffs generators, which can all be used (and synced) simultaneously.

 

Note - the KB3 organ sounds in the SP4-7 will respond to drawbar messages and controls for vibrato/chorus/perc from external MIDI.

[ziquo]

Hi Dave, thanks for giving us information.

 

I have one question I couldn't address reading the SP4-7 manual.

Are the envelopes editable? More specifically, can I shorten the release time of a piano patch?

 

Thanks again

 

Nic