Dream Theater

[Ian Benhamou]

Oouff, a lot has been said since my last post. I apologize for the delay, but I was practicing.

 

OK, Griffinator, I take back my sweeping statement. You're right, it was unfair of me to say they never did anything emotionally charged when I'm not completely intimate with their entire catalog.

 

I am, however, quite familiar with their early work, the supposed golden period with Kevin Moore. When I was 14 I really got into Awake and A Change of Seasons, but I was a young-chronic-masturbating-pubescent-teen , so I guess the music spoke to me on that level. And even though I don't listen to DT at all anymore, I do check in regularly and look at youtube clips of their live DVD's to see if ever something will turn me on. It NEVER does.

 

Unlike everyone else who has posted, I will say that I get Dream Theater, and that's precisely why I can't stand them. It's all too individualistic and completely about self-indulgent technical proficiency. It has zero soul or emotion. And that's the way their fans like it.

 

If you close your eyes and just listen to the music without seeing their fingers move, and without listening to the individual solos, what emotions are communicated, if any? Where are the melodies? Where's the groove? Where are the dynamics?

 

Classical musicians are among the most technically proficient and virtuosic around, yet in my 15 years of classical piano lessons, NEVER did technique come before expression, musicality and dynamics. In fact, one of my best teachers once told me technique is the ability to get the proper sound out of your instrument to communicate something to your audience, not how many notes you could play in a nanosecond.

 

 

 

I've since grown up and matured and discovered a huge amount of great music in a bunch of different genres.

 

 

[timwat]

I'll just say this.

 

I am never, ever, ever going to post any of my playing on this board.

 

Ever.

[Griffinator]

Oouff, a lot has been said since my last post. I apologize for the delay, but I was practicing.

 

OK, Griffinator, I take back my sweeping statement. You're right, it was unfair of me to say they never did anything emotionally charged when I'm not completely intimate with their entire catalog.

 

You apologize for one sweeping statement, then you...

 

It's all too individualistic and completely about self-indulgent technical proficiency. It has zero soul or emotion. And that's the way their fans like it.

 

If you close your eyes and just listen to the music without seeing their fingers move, and without listening to the individual solos, what emotions are communicated, if any? Where are the melodies? Where's the groove? Where are the dynamics?

 

...make another one.

 

I can show you melody, groove, and dynamics (particularly dynamics) in every song on Images and Words.

 

It's precisely for that reason that I'm not as into their later stuff - the dynamics lack, the melody lacks (the grooves are still there in most of the stuff) and the overall cohesion of the music, where it actually makes sense as a composition is, more often than not, missing. Yeah, they've dealt out some huge, thundering riffs in the last half a dozen years or so, but even a buddy of mine who is as rabid a DT fan as you'll ever meet (I'm surprised he hasn't built a shrine to Portnoy in his living room) will tell you about how he longs for Kevin Moore's songwriting strength in the band.

 

But yeah, I can close my eyes and appreciate all those things that you just mentioned in "Metropolis", "Learning to Live", and damned near anything else from Images, Awake, and Infinity. It starts to get spotty after that...

 

I guess the other thing that kind bugs me about the whole discussion is that lesser players are not subject to the same scrutiny about playing flashy. People around here hate on virtuosos that occasionally (or even frequently) indulge in wankery, but a lesser player that takes a retarded solo in an inappropriate moment gets a free pass because, well, he's a lesser player.

 

You guys beat the hell out of Hiromi on a regular basis because she plays the shit out of the piano and has a blast doing it, but according to most folks here, she's not "musical" enough, there's no "emotion" in it, she's "showing off"...

 

Showmanship is a part of live performance. John Petrucci can and regularly does play circles around Eddie Van Halen - but the latter is revered while the former is hated, despite the fact that they both do the same thing, only John is better at it. That makes zero sense to me.

[Joe Muscara]

I'll just say this.

 

I am never, ever, ever going to post any of my playing on this board.

 

Ever.

I've done it once or twice, and people were either positive or kept their mouths (hands?) shut.

[Tonysounds]

I guess the other thing that kind bugs me about the whole discussion is that lesser players are not subject to the same scrutiny about playing flashy. People around here hate on virtuosos that occasionally (or even frequently) indulge in wankery, but a lesser player that takes a retarded solo in an inappropriate moment gets a free pass because, well, he's a lesser player.

 

I didnt think anyone was exempt from savagery here! What lesser player is given a free ride? Ill be honest, I prefer listening to Benmont Tench to Jordan Rudess any and every day of the week; but if he stinks up the joint, well post about it! I understand the other posters comment about not putting his music on the forum, but the way I see it, if you put yourself out there, you open yourself up (rightly so) to criticism and praise. Its the price you pay for look at mepeople look at you. Maybe my preference for less note-y music is a testament to my ignorance, but I doubt thats the case: Im still a fan of ELP and Rush and U.K. and Porcupine Tree and Kansas and King Crimson and old Genesis and Yes and Zappa and other accomplished bands. I just think some do it better than others. And in general, I think newer music pales to older music.Im always evaluating to see whether its just my age and nostalgia for what I know, but I do find new music that I like, just not a lot of it.

 

Im finding different qualities to appreciate these days, but communication (connection between artist and listener) has always been key.

 

[tarkus]

FZ would say: "Spoo"

[Bobadohshe]

You guys beat the hell out of Hiromi on a regular basis because she plays the shit out of the piano and has a blast doing it, but according to most folks here, she's not "musical" enough, there's no "emotion" in it, she's "showing off"...

 

Showmanship is a part of live performance. John Petrucci can and regularly does play circles around Eddie Van Halen - but the latter is revered while the former is hated, despite the fact that they both do the same thing, only John is better at it. That makes zero sense to me.

 

Hiromi is not hated on by all around here. I dig her. Everybody hated on that last Stanley Clark video though, and it had less to do with her and more to do with bastardizing a meaningful song. Of all the crap in that video I actually liked her solo the best.

[Cygnus64]

John Petrucci can and regularly does play circles around Eddie Van Halen - but the latter is revered while the former is hated, despite the fact that they both do the same thing, only John is better at it. That makes zero sense to me.

I think this statement can be a learning opportunity for everyone, myself included. It applies to many situations:

 

Why did Joe get promoted and not me?

Why did they hire that chick instead of me?

Why did they vote for the crappy singer instead of the good one?

Why did that chick go out with that loser and not me?

 

Sometimes there's no reason and sometimes there is. People can relate to EVH, he has charisma and an X factor. People like his music and they like HIM. He figured out when to stop a song. Whatever he's doing, he can be learned from, even by a better player. It's too convenient to say "Joe Schmoe is better and not liked" but one has to figure out why the other guy is liked. There are lots of good reasons to like EVH.

[Ian Benhamou]

Sometimes there's no reason and sometimes there is. People can relate to EVH, he has charisma and an X factor. People like his music and they like HIM. He figured out when to stop a song. Whatever he's doing, he can be learned from, even by a better player. It's too convenient to say "Joe Schmoe is better and not liked" but one has to figure out why the other guy is liked. There are lots of good reasons to like EVH.

 

While my post is at major risk at opening a huge can of worms, I gotta say that EVH is in a league of his own when it comes to virtuosic electric guitar playing.

 

Before I continue, please nobody start making comparisons to great classical, flamenco or jazz giants. We're strictly talking shredder rock guys.

 

Eddie is SOOO much more than a flashy player. Yes, he's bombastic, yes there is a good deal of technique involved, but his playing is highly expressive.

 

Why? His influences are, believe it or not, guys like Hendrix, Clapton, Jimmy Page, Billy Gibbons, Alan Holdsworth and Steve Hackett. EVH was heavily influenced by the dialogic question and answer of the blues.

 

He's a dynamic player. His soloing sings. His whammy dives aren't just wanking, they're placed in musically interesting places and create an effect of lines weaving in and out of each other.

 

EVH practices more of an exuberant and jaunty brand of virtuosity, and that playfulness is clearly communicated to the listener. He combine's a vioinist's precise and showy technique inflected by the vocal rhetoric of the blues and rock n' roll irreverance and as a result displays an unprecedented fluidity.

 

Pettrucci's, although an incredible technical player, got nothing on EVH when it comes to making musical statements. And that's not personal taste, that's pretty unanimous in the world of rock guitar gods.

[kanker.]

EVH also understood how to make really good pop music. The virtuosity was an added bonus

[JpScoey]

I would have to say that, in some ways, I'm encouraged by this thread.

 

JR has almost been hailed a God-like figure in some quarters over the last x-many years,

to the extent that it makes us mere mortals feel vastly inferior.

 

There is absolutely no doubting his technical ability but, as has been stated,

that doesn't always add up to the 'emotion' that music is capable of expressing.

 

In that tribute thing he did for Portnoy it was, as usual, largely an exhibition of over-complicated arpeggios etc.

 

On the couple of occasions when he held back, the song/tune was quite moving.

 

But no -& this is the thing (which many people have expressed here)- it's clouded by

 

(I think Tonysounds said this) Yngwie-type elaboration which is completely unnecessary.

 

I'm not saying that instrumental skill should be frowned upon -

 

indeed it bugs me seeing no-idea what they're doing idiots trying to fool folks into thinking they're good.

 

An old cliche I know, but generally 'the simpler, the better'

 

A bit of a flourish every now-&-again can really lift a song,

 

but incessant million-notes-a-minute just numbs the senses.

 

 

[Ian Benhamou]

An old cliche I know, but generally 'the simpler, the better'

 

Mingus summed it up beautifully when he said,

 

"Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity."

[Tonysounds]

 

Showmanship is a part of live performance. John Petrucci can and regularly does play circles around Eddie Van Halen - but the latter is revered while the former is hated, despite the fact that they both do the same thing, only John is better at it. That makes zero sense to me.

 

You can't HEAR showmanship when you're listening to a recording, but you CAN hear personality: that's part of it. Petrucci may play circles around Eddie (and so can Vai), but keep in mind that Eddie coined a lot of the vocabulary they're using. (Not all of it of course, but there's nothing that Petrucci has contributed that wasn't there before; Petrucci didnt invent dive bombs, pinch harmonics, sweep picking.)

 

On top of that, Eddie's stuff is VERY musical.

 

His guitar parts (and songs!) are plenty hummable by the common man: thats cuz theyre memorable, they have hooks. Anything after Infinity, I wouldnt be able to differentiate from DT, even though I have most of those albums. And as much as we malign Jump on this forum, theres a certain melodic charm to his keyboard playing that is a natural extension of his guitar playing (or vice versa, as he played piano first); slow down the Jump solo, and its still a nice little piece of hummable work. Thats because he understands composition and music, and doesnt do hard for hards sake, and wasnt out to impress anyone.

[The Real MC]

I like Portnoy but DT as a whole bores me. Petrucci and Rudess are all scales/technique and no emotion. LaBrie isn't as bad as others make him out. And that bass player looks like he has stage fright, he stands still and never acknowledges his audience.

 

I have the Live in Budakon DVD. Most of their songs start getting interesting then degrade into long drawn out complex time signatures and/or rapid fire technical wankery.

 

"Pull Me Under" is the only DT song I can listen to.

[Griffinator]

Sometimes there's no reason and sometimes there is. People can relate to EVH, he has charisma and an X factor. People like his music and they like HIM. He figured out when to stop a song. Whatever he's doing, he can be learned from, even by a better player. It's too convenient to say "Joe Schmoe is better and not liked" but one has to figure out why the other guy is liked. There are lots of good reasons to like EVH.

 

While my post is at major risk at opening a huge can of worms, I gotta say that EVH is in a league of his own when it comes to virtuosic electric guitar playing.

 

Before I continue, please nobody start making comparisons to great classical, flamenco or jazz giants. We're strictly talking shredder rock guys.

 

Eddie is SOOO much more than a flashy player. Yes, he's bombastic, yes there is a good deal of technique involved, but his playing is highly expressive.

 

Why? His influences are, believe it or not, guys like Hendrix, Clapton, Jimmy Page, Billy Gibbons, Alan Holdsworth and Steve Hackett. EVH was heavily influenced by the dialogic question and answer of the blues.

 

He's a dynamic player. His soloing sings. His whammy dives aren't just wanking, they're placed in musically interesting places and create an effect of lines weaving in and out of each other.

 

EVH practices more of an exuberant and jaunty brand of virtuosity, and that playfulness is clearly communicated to the listener. He combine's a vioinist's precise and showy technique inflected by the vocal rhetoric of the blues and rock n' roll irreverance and as a result displays an unprecedented fluidity.

 

Pettrucci's, although an incredible technical player, got nothing on EVH when it comes to making musical statements. And that's not personal taste, that's pretty unanimous in the world of rock guitar gods.

 

Point went the other way.

 

EVH does more than his fair share of wanking. Yet he gets a free pass for his wanking because of (his charisma? his ability to write pop songs? his effectiveness at being "expressive" when he wanks?) while Petrucci gets hammered for showing even the slightest wankery, and gets no credit for brilliantly restrained stuff like this:

 

 

(PS: You don't have to slow down the guitar solos in that song to appreciate the musicality and expressiveness of them)

[Cygnus64]

EVH does more than his fair share of wanking. Yet he gets a free pass for his wanking because of (his charisma? his ability to write pop songs? his effectiveness at being "expressive" when he wanks?)

It aint wanking if you enjoy it (insert sex joke here).

 

I can't stand loud music in the car. I'm a textbook nerd and geek, I usually have talk radio or NPR or background music. If Van Halen comes on, I got that sucka cranked past 11. My body involuntary works against me and forces me to play air quitar. I'm not particularly a fan, I don't own their albums and havent seen em. It's the X factor, Eddie and the group have it. If you don't rock out to them, you're probably dead. In other words, when Eddie is wankin it's cool. When others do it, not so much. I'm horrible at it, it comes out forced and contrived.

[Mitch Towne]

I wasn't sure that the video that started this thread was actually Jordan Rudess because he wasn't staring into the camera making the "I am a keyboard wizard!" face that he does in every...single...picture.

[Tonysounds]

EVH does more than his fair share of wanking. Yet he gets a free pass for his wanking because of (his charisma? his ability to write pop songs? his effectiveness at being "expressive" when he wanks?)

 

Without resorting to the infamous live JUMP clip, post what you consider some of Eddie's wankery.

[Joe Muscara]

I think an important part of Eddie's technique is the rhythm and the groove. Even in his solo solos, it's there. Unlike a lot of guys who play lead guitar, he can not only play rhythm, but a cool groove. He also knows when to dig into the flash, and when to lay back.

 

Satriani is another example of this. He gets a little further out than EVH, but the song is key for him as well.

 

However, VH III completely blew the whole song thing. For a guy that was supposedly sobered up, that album went completely adrift. I don't know if there's any wanking on it, but I can't stand to listen to it to find out and refresh what little memory I have of it.

[Tonysounds]

Never heard that album, and I have no plans to remedy that.

[Joe Muscara]

I bought it used, my wife wondered why. She was right.

 

The odd thing is, I liked Cherone with Extreme (except for those stupid ballads), but on VH III he pretty much only screams. I have a live recording of him singing Mean Street when they toured, and it wasn't bad.

[Ian Benhamou]

VH III was a travesty and Cherone was mostly the reason I couldn't stand it. Joe said it best, he ain't singin' he's screamin'.

 

And also, Joe nailed it on the head about Eddie's sophisticated sense of rhtythm. There's an incredible groove, even in his solo stuff like Eruption. Some of those whammy dives are in a swung rhythm.

 

And when he's just playing rhythmic riff's and grooving with Alex and Anthony, it's got a great feel extremely reminiscent of ZZ Top.

 

Like I said, EVH is really in a league of his own for shredding. Not only did he invent the style, but he spawned a generation of wannabes and imitators that only saw the virtuosity but never copped the feel and musicality.

[mcgoo]

Without resorting to the infamous live JUMP clip, post what you consider some of Eddie's wankery.

 

 

Someone had to do it. It just happened to be my turn.

[Griffinator]

EVH does more than his fair share of wanking. Yet he gets a free pass for his wanking because of (his charisma? his ability to write pop songs? his effectiveness at being "expressive" when he wanks?)

 

Without resorting to the infamous live JUMP clip, post what you consider some of Eddie's wankery.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAm7-Ao9UQc

 

 

[ABECK]

VH III was a travesty

 

I blame Mike Post for that.

[JpScoey]

Without resorting to the infamous live JUMP clip, post what you consider some of Eddie's wankery.

 

 

Someone had to do it. It just happened to be my turn.

 

...& this is it

 

[video:youtube]

 

Much as I admire EVH, this is definitely one of the worst cases of serious 'wankery' I've ever seen

 

He must have been drunkery (or something else) - I mean, c'mon... he couldn't even get the 'Iron Man' riff right.

[Eric Jx]

Without resorting to the infamous live JUMP clip, post what you consider some of Eddie's wankery.

 

 

Someone had to do it. It just happened to be my turn.

 

...& this is it

 

[video:youtube]

 

Much as I admire EVH, this is definitely one of the worst cases of serious 'wankery' I've ever seen

 

He must have been drunkery (or something else) - I mean, c'mon... he couldn't even get the 'Iron Man' riff right.

 

 

Ummmm.....You know this is a joke right? It's an overdub. There is a whole series of "guitarist X Shreds" videos.

[mcgoo]

Without resorting to the infamous live JUMP clip, post what you consider some of Eddie's wankery.

 

 

Someone had to do it. It just happened to be my turn.

 

...& this is it

 

[video:youtube]

 

Much as I admire EVH, this is definitely one of the worst cases of serious 'wankery' I've ever seen

 

He must have been drunkery (or something else) - I mean, c'mon... he couldn't even get the 'Iron Man' riff right.

 

 

Ummmm.....You know this is a joke right? It's an overdub. There is a whole series of "guitarist X Shreds" videos.

 

um, yes. That whole series is one of the most brilliant uses of irreverent genius I've ever seen.

[Mark Zeger]

So, was it wankery that was Portnoy's complaint?

[DanL]

I think EVH gets a pass because he pretty much was the innovator of that genre of playing. Some can do it better, sure, but he was about the 1st. I completely agree that he's got the ability to make good music too- how many VH songs are considered classics? How many shredder type players have even 1 song that could be considered a classic? I'm not a VH fan, don't have any of their recordings, but when Panama comes on the radio, I crank it up.