A/Bing the new QSC K10 with the old Traynor K4

[GovernorSilver]

You have named the two instruments which best benefit from being run thru a non hifi tube amp and speakers.

 

But unless you are micing the amp sound, kanker is right - get it programmed into the sound itself if possible.

 

Here's the question on everybody's mind...

 

Dateline: Mid 2010

 

Can intelligent programming replace a tube?

 

 

Nope. Every time I listen to these fat valve amps my guitarists use, compared to various Pod-type devices, I get reassured again. And I know a thing or two about modern signal processing capabilities.

 

No doubt, the guitarists who buy and use QSC K-series with an Axe FX, Digidesign Eleven Rack, or similar product in lieu of the traditional tube amp combo/stack are probably in the minority.

 

I might actually go for the K8 after reading Mark's review.

[AnotherScott]

Not sure I understand the issue of the QSC k8 not being wedge shaped--does placing a home-made wedge under it damage the sound in some way or is this just a minor complaint?

 

Mostly I think it's just the nuisance of finding/fabricating an appropriate piece to prop it up and having to bring it along, along with the potential lack of stability (if people accidentally bump into it, for example). I think these issues can be well addressed with some velcro, though.

 

I think the only other issue would be cable clearance in the back. Sometimes propping up a speaker at an angle is at odds with the placement of the connectors. Right-angle ends on your cables can usually address this as well.

 

Still, there is some benefit to not have to think about these things.

[DanS]

Not sure I understand the issue of the QSC k8 not being wedge shaped--does placing a home-made wedge under it damage the sound in some way or is this just a minor complaint?

 

Mostly I think it's just the nuisance of finding/fabricating an appropriate piece to prop it up and having to bring it along, along with the potential lack of stability (if people accidentally bump into it, for example). I think these issues can be well addressed with some velcro, though.

 

I think the only other issue would be cable clearance in the back. Sometimes propping up a speaker at an angle is at odds with the placement of the connectors. Right-angle ends on your cables can usually address this as well.

 

Still, there is some benefit to not have to think about these things.

 

Yes, placement of the connectors can be an issue. If you're going for a K8 and want to prop it on an angle, make sure you're not going to grind the XLR's into the floor when doing so.

[Michelle ggurl]

K8 is lighter weight and very tempting with Mark's review.

 

Mark, question: you mentioned that at louder volumes the K10 sounded better, ie, less boxy ... most of us are not looking to use these as monitors in our homes, but out on a gig. Would you say the volume levels you tested both at were representative of that volume? I'm not talking ear-splitting, but at least you'd have to moderately shout or talk loudly to another person in proximity (ie bandmate onstage) with the volume of the speaker.

 

It sounds like I will be able to track down the K series and demo them myself too, just wondering about this last detail in your very informative test-drive and analysis!

[kanker.]

Honestly, after having gigged the K10 for a good couple of months, I can't say I've heard anything remotely boxy about it. Transparent, definitely. Boxy, no way

[Michelle ggurl]

Kevin, yeah, it seems the K10s are pretty popular so I'm thinking must sound pretty good ... do you usually run one in mono (either as sole sound source or because you're running output to a house system) or use two for stereo? Did you get a chance to compare K10s with K8s when shopping for these?

[Ian Benhamou]

Kevin... do you usually run one in mono (either as sole sound source or because you're running output to a house system) or use two for stereo?

 

You must have been gone a while to even be asking this!

 

[kanker.]

Kevin, yeah, it seems the K10s are pretty popular so I'm thinking must sound pretty good ... do you usually run one in mono (either as sole sound source or because you're running output to a house system) or use two for stereo? Did you get a chance to compare K10s with K8s when shopping for these?

Stereo is for amateurs

 

I didn't bother looking at the K8 because it doesn't kick back like a monitor. I was looking at the K10 and the K12, and when I hooked up the K10 to an XK3c, pulled out the pedal drawbars, and was greeted by ample, deep bass without the DEEP feature engaged, I was sold. No need for me to get the bigger box when the K10 was more than sufficient.

[Mark Schmieder]

I've been lucky in that most of the bands I've worked with the past few years keep the stage volume down, with the general rule being that the drummer sets the level (if there's a level).

 

I suspect other bands may either have loud stage volume, or use their stage monitors for the house sound. That would change things.

 

There is a HUGE difference between Near Field and Far Field, as well as Mid Field, and most loudspeaker designs do not perform equally well at all three.

 

So, my review of the K-series is specifically in the context of Near Field, low volume, self-monitoring on stage (and home).

 

Beyond that, you are dealing more with P/A sound characteristics, which I try to avoid unless necessary.

 

Hopefully this helps provide some context for people. At any rate, don't make your decision based on my review; it should just provide impetus for being proactive about what and how to test the K-series in person.

 

I do not recommend buying anything of this nature through reputation alone.I know that I personally have been unhappy over every on-line, over-the-phone, or custom purchase I've ever made where I didn't get to hear in advance the exact item or model I was buying. There are just too many variables, input sources especially matter for speakers, and we all have different ears.

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh, and interestingly enough, while we may perceive the K-10's as being the most popular, the K-12 is actually the bigger seller.

 

Remember though, that keyboardists are in the minority of buyers: most people buy these as P/A speakers.

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh, I just saw Geekgurl's earlier post, so should quantify my earlier qualitative statement about sound levels:

 

My general rule of thumb on stage is that playing volumes should not exceed normal talking volumes.

 

I let the P/A take care of deafening the audience. :-)

 

I've found that people hear each other better on stage and play better together, at those volumes, and that pushing much beyond that starts the inevitible volume war between the amps. :-)

[Michelle ggurl]

Kevin... do you usually run one in mono (either as sole sound source or because you're running output to a house system) or use two for stereo?

 

 

You must have been gone a while to even be asking this!

 

 

Stereo is for amateurs

 

 

Indeed, with this question, I think I must have stepped into a landmine territory that must be some other thread, LOL. Or stepped into ... sumthin'.

 

Mark, thanks for the additional info. I like have a fairly low stage volume as well (I play mainly in a piano trio, the band doesn't need to be bombastic), but anything I buy will have to be used to supply sound out to the house as well when playing restaurants and fairly small venues ... so while I don't need earsplitting sound to come out of this thing, I want to gauge its quality of sound at a range of volumes if I can. Still, we don't need to run drums through a PA or any other instruments ... and I don't mind using just one amp for this purpose if I can get positioning right to appease the band as well as the house. Just trying to get a sense of how folks who use these do so and under what conditions, ie, size of venue, as a PA vs personal monitoring, etc.

 

[kanker.]

Kevin... do you usually run one in mono (either as sole sound source or because you're running output to a house system) or use two for stereo?

 

 

You must have been gone a while to even be asking this!

 

 

Stereo is for amateurs

 

 

Indeed, with this question, I think I must have stepped into a landmine territory that must be some other thread, LOL. Or stepped into ... sumthin'.

When I first got here, I was a bit the odd man out in my mono evangelism. In the years since, I've been winning converts one speaker at a time....

[ksoper]

In ancient times - the favorite deep bass check was "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor," J. S. Bach. Preferably the Virgil Fox version.

 

Which recording of Fox? There were a bunch of him playing the D minor.

 

 

[DanS]

When I first got here, I was a bit the odd man out in my mono evangelism. In the years since, I've been winning converts one speaker at a time....

 

Well for the moment I've gone mono by design. I sold my K4 last week, and my Tascam LM8ST line mixer arrived. I initially hooked up everything into the LM8ST in stereo, then fed a mono XLR to the K10.

It sounded like poo, so I just used the L/Mono output on my boards.

So mono it is, for now anyway.

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

In ancient times - the favorite deep bass check was "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor," J. S. Bach. Preferably the Virgil Fox version.

 

Which recording of Fox? There were a bunch of him playing the D minor.

 

 

I don't remember which version - I worked for years servicing electronic musical instruments, including Rodgers organs - I think it was on one of their releases that were sent to their dealers - for a time, he toured with a custom Rodgers organ.

[Mark Schmieder]

If I do end up buying a K8 before the September discount expires, I will definitely be loaning it to my jazz bandleader for use at a gig, to see how it performs as house sound and stage monitoring combined, as that is the way that group does things due to where we play and the size of the gigs. Then I'll at least know how it compares against a Peavey combo amp. I imagine it's much louder.

 

As for the K10, being that I tried it at Guitar Center and all, there's a mild possibility it was damaged. :-) Although, the sales clerk said he had plugged several others in as he had the same observations, and it didn't change anything for him. Even so, I didn't have a lot of leeway for positioning, and that could have contributed to the response.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm probably going to buy one of these tomorrow, if my dental surgery doesn't end up being out-of-pocket espense (and if I am intellectually functional afterwards).

 

I did a comparison of my bass speaker vs. my studio monitors with many sound sources yesterday, and ultimately felt the bass speaker was much more detailed, rich, intelligible, and inspiring, than the stereo active monitors, for every voice category.

 

Although the Bergie iP112 is fairly flat and full frequency range, there is still a slight low-mid boominess to it when used with keyboards, regardless of placement or tweeter setting, etc. I may be wrong, but I think the QSC K8 is going to present a truer picture of most sounds. Even if not, it will serve well for gigs.

 

Also, the QSC K8 will help me better evaluate how much of this difference I was hearing, is due to the quality of individual components (i.e. speakers) vs. cone size. In this case I was comparing 6" KRK Rokit's to the single Bergie 12". I may swap the KRK's for Yammie 5" monitors while they're on sale though, as they seem flatter. Eventually I'd augment that with a 12" sub, so that might become the ideal home system for monitoring keyboards.

 

One concern I have with a single QSC K8 is that some keyboards don't have mono sum outputs, so I'd either need to let the K8 take care of that and only hook up one keyboard at the gig, or maybe use two K8's (whether dual mono, or stereo).

 

I re-read my P'08 manual today to see if I was doing anything wrong, but it doesn't say what it does with mono. My ears quite clearly tell me that the labeled "mono" output is NOT mono-summed, and so I've returned to using that keyboard strictly in stereo mode as it has a lot of rich panning features in its voice programming, which is used in most presets as well as my own custom voices. I may check the Prophet forum soon to see if this has been discussed.

 

I think the XK1 is probably a true mono-sum output, and will probably test that later tonight. The DSI Evolver probably follows the P'08 strategy.

[ITGITC]

I'm probably going to buy one of these tomorrow, if my dental surgery doesn't end up being out-of-pocket espense (and if I am intellectually functional afterwards).

 

Best of luck to you tomorrow on your dental surgery, Mark.

 

Tom

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks, Tom. It's a root canal, so I've been in a lot of pain the past few weeks. Had the same emergency this time last year, but they were hoping the crown would take care of things -- it didn't. I hear root canals aren't as complicated or painful as in the past (this is my first -- had perfect teeth until i got smacked in the jaw with a baseball a couple of years ago).

 

It's funny, all doubt about going the K8 vs. K12 route went out the window after seeing Jim Kost's back-saving 12-for-10 back-saving trade offer in the forum classifieds tonight... :-)

[AnotherScott]

I hear root canals aren't as complicated or painful as in the past

Nothing to worry about. Just get the nitrous/novacaine combo and you'll be happy as a clam. The most painful part is the bill.

[keyoctave]

I hear root canals aren't as complicated or painful as in the past

Nothing to worry about. Just get the nitrous/novacaine combo and you'll be happy as a clam. The most painful part is the bill.

 

I've had four using sedation dentistry. You don't even remember the proceedure. Great stuff!

[keyoctave]

Some time back, I walked into a music store will the full intention of purchasing a pair of K-10's. I A/B'ed the K-10's against the JBL 510's with music and keyboards. What led me (surprisingly) to decide on the 510's over the K-10 was that they sounded (to me) just as good if not better, were much lighter, and cost me $200 less per speaker. Granted, they don't play quite as loud as the K 10's, and, you have to use a pre-amp (though I am reading you may have to with the k series as well). The K10's are great speakers (no doubt), but there are alternatives.

 

 

 

[ITGITC]

And there ya have it.

 

You have to audition speakers with your own ears in order to determine if they will work for your application.

 

Like pianos and piano samples - to each his own. What sounds good to me (my PC2X with the triple-strike samples) may sound GREAT to you.

 

Yeah. When I decide to spend the do-re-mi, I will HAVE TO find a store that has both the JBL and the QSC speakers for a little one-on-one time.

 

Merry Christmas / Happy Birthday, Mr. keyoctave.

[kanker.]

I hear root canals aren't as complicated or painful as in the past

Nothing to worry about. Just get the nitrous/novacaine combo and you'll be happy as a clam.

Have em hit you up with a little extra of each, and you'll be walking out of GC with a K8 Quad system

 

Best of luck on the surgery.

[AnotherScott]

When I decide to spend the do-re-mi, I will HAVE TO find a store that has both the JBL and the QSC speakers for a little one-on-one time.

I'd like to hear them too... and also the EV ZXA1, which has garnered some enthusiasm and looks great on paper, actually with bass response more like the QSC K12 than the comparably configured K8 (though at lower max SPL).

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks for the well wishes, and you're right, the bill was the worst part: $1900 up-front! Insurance MIGHT cover $600... later.

 

So, bottom line, I won't be able to get a K8 (or anything else... including an upgrade to my 10-year old computer), anytime soon.

 

Someone else will have to be the brave "first K8" customer and report back... unfortunately I am not likely to be the first one on this forum to have one at hand to put through its paces.

 

I'm curious about the E/V series but haven't seen them carried anywhere. So maybe this op will prove a blessing in disguise, slowing me down enough to hunt down an E/V vendor.

 

Hmm, no one has mentioned Traynor in awhile, so I guess no one minds this has morphed into a more general discussion of QSC K-series P/A monitors. :-)

[Mark Schmieder]

Leo's Pro Audio in Oakland carries the entire E/V series (including the ZXA1) and the entire QSC series, so I can do a shootout Wednesday morning on the way to work. They said they're willing to set me up with a keyboard vs. depending on CD's.

 

Although they made a recommendation in advance, I'll save that for when I give my own evaluation, as it probably won't mean much to anyone without my detailed feedback.

 

The E/V is cheaper than the QSC, so I MIGHT be able to still squeeze this into my budget, if any of my Craigslist and Forum items sell quickly...

[AnotherScott]

Leo's Pro Audio in Oakland carries the entire E/V series (including the ZXA1) and the entire QSC series, so I can do a shootout Wednesday morning on the way to work.

 

Something to keep in mind... If it's a ZXA1-100, it will have a conical dispersion pattern like the QSC. But if it's a ZXA1-90, it will have a 90 x 50 degree dispersion... and the horn can be rotated so the 90 degree dispersion can be either horizontal or vertical. So if you're off-axis, the comparison may lead you to different conclusions depending on the orientation of the horn (combined with whether the speaker is standing in its PA position or flipped 90 degrees in its floor monitor position).

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks -- fortunately, I had seen that mentioned in some writeups.

 

It's a great feature. We build several of our speakers that way -- especially ther ones designed for smaller venues such as live theatre. Some of those places have needs that evolve over time, and it gives them "two speakers in one", so to speak.