Pls Hlp..phase cancellation on vocal tracks.

[jraffertyuswest.net]

Pls Hlp..phase cancellation on vocal tracks. I like the sound of double tracked vocals. The problem is there always seems to be slight phase cancellation between two vocal tracks even when they are tracked seperately. I have been using a c1000 and working it fairly close and a tad off axis with a pop filter for location reference. (Although one song was on axis and had same problem to a lesser degree.) Could my problem be that the sound of one vocal track is actually phasing a little bit from movement around and inconsistently in the cardiod parrern? And that the second vocal track does the same thing? So when heard toegether and occasional phase in and out with each other? (It is virtually unnoticable on either soled vocal track) Any help would be greatly appreciated, -Josh. P.S. c1000 into preamp and converters on 01v then lightpipe to cakewalk @ 24 bit is signal path.

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Are you sure you're talking about phase cancellation? Phase cancellation would involve one of the vocal tracks pretty much disappearing. I've met some singers who can do some pretty consistent multitrack performances, but nobody who's *that* consistent! :D Maybe you're just hearing the natural flanging-like sound you get when you have two vocal tracks with slightly different performances. If so, this is part of the double-tracked vocal sound. If you don't want it to sound as obviously double-tracked, you can lower the volume of one of the tracks... Or EQ one of the tracks differently... Or put a quick delay on one of the tracks but not the other... Or put a reverb on one of the tracks but not the other... The possibilities are really endless. Do you have an audio sample you can post? Perhaps that might explain what you're hearing.

[miroslav]

Are you singing once and then splitting/doubling the track...and the adding some delay/chorus/fx to one of the splits to create the double? or... Are you singing the part twice...and the mixing the two individual takes to double the vox,...which is the way I'm reading your post. If so...try using a different mic for each take...or if you only have the one mic...don't sing both parts from exactly the same position. Do one take close and then step back a foot or two for the second take. You really would want only one vox to be the prominent/strong one, and the double is there, slightly back...otherwise they are "fighting each other" and will tend to go in and out. But, using any basic chorus FX will have some phasing involved...it's natural.

[jraffertyuswest.net]

P.S.S. Also, is there some kind of trick that I could do to the second vocal (mixed less prominently) that would prevent it from occasionally phasing with the main? Something that would change the wave file enough to prevent it from phasing with the other? Like pitch detune or something? thanks, -Josh

[jraffertyuswest.net]

I am retracking the vocal a second time. I believe it is some kind of phasing because when played together evenly, the two vocals regularly seem almost dissapear entirely in the mix. So not only does doubling it not make the sound bigger, it makes it much smaller. And when played together, even with various combinations of panning assignments, they just sound like they are phasing each other out. Thanks, -Josh.

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[quote]Originally posted by jrafferty@uswest.net: [b]I am retracking the vocal a second time. I believe it is some kind of phasing because when played together evenly, the two vocals regularly seem almost dissapear entirely in the mix. So not only does doubling it not make the sound bigger, it makes it much smaller. And when played together, even with various combinations of panning assignments, they just sound like they are phasing each other out. [/b][/quote] Wow -- are you absolutely sure you're working with two tracks that have different takes on them? I mean, the possibility of phase cancellation for two different vocal tracks recorded at different times is... astronomically slight. And even then, if something did cancel each other out, it would probably only be for a fraction of a second. It sounds like you might be somehow working with two tracks of exactly the same material, and perhaps your DAW program isn't sample accurate... So you might be hearing phase cancellation or some weird combing effect instead of a louder vocal.

[jraffertyuswest.net]

[quote] It sounds like you might be somehow working with two tracks of exactly the same material, and perhaps your DAW program isn't sample accurate... So you might be hearing phase cancellation or some weird combing effect instead of a louder vocal. [/quote] No I am positive that it is NOT two tracks of the same material. I know exactly what that sounds like and it is not that. Besides that I was there when the second vocal was re-tracked, so unless I have gone completely certifiable I guarantee this is not the issue. I am guessing the sound is coming from slight movement left right near the edge of the cardiod pattern on each vocal track. And occasionaly they move opposite/ the same in a way that makes them swoosh out of phase with each other. Thanks again for any help if you can. -Josh

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[quote]Originally posted by jrafferty@uswest.net: [b] Thanks again for any help if you can. [/b][/quote] Could you post a short WAV file as an example? Perhaps you could have just the two vocal lines soloed: one vocal panned hard left and the other vocal hard right. I don't think I've ever come across what you're describing, and I multitrack vocals all the time.

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I thought of another possibility -- one of the vocal tracks could truly be out of phase... Perhaps it was recorded that way by accident (either an XLR cable not wired correctly, a phase reversal switch accidently turned on in the board, or something that got set in your DAW). Try flipping the phase of one of the vocal tracks, then try combining them and see if that helps.

[JSV]

[i]OF COURSE IT WOULD BE BEST TO "HEAR" THE PROBLEM BUT...[/i] IS THE VOCALIST [i]ISOLATED ?[/i] IS THERE ANY AUDIO FROM THE CANS/HEADSET LEAKING TO THE MIC? IF THE ORIGINAL TRACK DOESN'T HAVE EVIDENCE OF THIS TONAL QUALITY/CHARACTERISTIC THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO AS [i]CANCELLATION[/i], THEN [b]SOMEWHERE[/b] THERE'S LEAKAGE FROM THE FIRST TRACK (on to the 'dub' track). MAYBE DURING PLAYBACK AN AUX SEND/RETURN, SUB-GROUP, OR BUSS HAS BEEN MISTAKENLY ASSIGNED, OR YOU'RE STILL HEARING 'INPUT' FROM AN OPEN MIC THAT IS PICKING UP AUDIO FROM A MONITOR OR CANS DURING PLAYBACK?? (You probably know what you're doing, but)ARE YOU USING A HI-IMP CABLE TO CONNECT A LOW-IMP MIC WITHOUT A IMP-TRANSFORMER?? [url=http://www.jsvcolorfast.com]JSV[/url]