Venuology

[Wally Malone]

Copied this from the Denver Musicians e-newsletter. Currently this is good for those of you who perform in NYC, the Dallas area and soon Denver. It will eventually expand beyond these areas.

 

New Website Helps Musicians Rate Clubs

By Matt Plummer, AFM Web Developer and Tech Support Specialist

 

Matt Plummer Matt Plummer

Venuology.com, a new website from the AFM Freelance Services Division, is becoming an important resource for musicians booking gigs at New York City nightclubs and other venues. This service will now expand to Metro Denver.

In recent years, musicians have found that even large venues with good crowds are refusing to pay musicians adequately. Bands are often paid solely by audience tips, leaving clubs free to erase live music from their business expenses.

Without significant union density, many musicians in indie rock, the downtown scene, jazz, world music, Latin music and country-western are fending for themselves - otherwise known as the D.I.Y. (do-it-yourself) model. Clubs benefit from a glut of musicians looking for gigs, and the subsequent race to the bottom.

The power dynamic is skewed. For a given club, an owner can choose between multiple bands looking for work. From the band's perspective, they can accept the owner's terms - or let another group take their place.

Venuology.com ameliorates this problem. It creates a space where musicians can safely share information about venues. Bands review venues they perform at, writing anonymously about their experience and optionally listing details such as the club's backline, sound quality, room size, whether the club promoted the show and even how much the band was paid.

Armed with this information, other groups can make informed choices when negotiating with venues. They know if the venue has ripped off other bands, or if musicians uniformly love playing there. Musicians can see if groups received free drinks or food. They have a general idea of what others were paid, and they know if the venue uses minimum draws to justify denying bands a share of the cover.

As musicians get a better look at the big picture of the venue landscape, they may think twice about playing at clubs that are rated poorly - without needing to experience it themselves. When booking musical acts, these clubs will now face a small army of empowered musicians rather than isolated individuals.

Indeed, an important goal for the site is to demonstrate the power of collective action, especially to musicians that may not be familiar with the AFM or the labor movement in general. The website is a recruiting tool, a hook to introduce indie musicians to the AFM while providing a genuinely useful service.

Venuology.com may also help determine where the pressure points of the music scene lie; the issues most important to indie musicians will become more apparent.

Since the 1990's, several organizations have arisen in New York to address problems of compensation, opportunity and community, including the Noise Action Coalition, Take It To The Bridge, RUCMA and Local 802's own Justice for Jazz Artists campaign. Parallel efforts could happen in Denver.

Hopefully, Venuology.com will be a useful tool for activists already engaged in a fight to improve working conditions in area clubs. Of course, the most important ingredient of a venue review website is user participation; musicians need to write reviews!

Visit Venuology.com and sign up today! It's free and completely anonymous. For comments or questions, contact us at beta@venuology.com, or (917) 229-0238.

 

This article first appeared in the May 2010 issue of Allegro, the newspaper of AFM Local 802. For more background, see www.Local802afm.org

[jeremy c]

I like it.

 

Now the thing to do is figure out how to get this info out to non-union musicians.

[Wally Malone]

Matt, the IT person in the Membership Dept. also has the AFM on all of the social networks as well and also there is now an AFM YouTube page. Word will spread and it should show up in the search engines. I think it's great since it doesn't require membership to utilize. There is also a "Friends of AFM" for those that want to help us with our legislative efforts such as airline carry on policies. That can be found at afm.org. There are locals now promoting Friends of AFM at county and state fairs reaching out to the general public.

 

Wally

[picker]

Works great if you're in Denver or New York. Hope it spreads cross-country.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Very cool. Thanks, Wally!

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[Eric VB]

And once the bad guys get a bad rap, and musicians stop playing at their place, what do they do? They simply change the name of the venue and none are the wiser.

 

Sometimes it's better to know the name of the actual person doing business, as he or she tends to be a slimeball no matter what the name of the joint is they work at or own.

 

(Same goes for bands, of course. When a band is blacklisted by venues it simply changes its name and gets back on the circuit.)

[Eric VB]

Bands are often paid solely by audience tips, leaving clubs free to erase live music from their business expenses.

I saw a CL ad that took this concept one step further.

 

The venue was looking for people to host parties at their venue. You bring people and the venue gives you a cut of proceeds.

 

Sound familiar? This is what some bands are offered.

 

I've said it before: bands are not hired for entertainment value. Bands are hired to gain access to mailing lists for advertising purposes and as party planners for their fans/friends. Now it has finally come true: you don't even need to bring your instruments anymore! Just bring people!

 

Paid to Party

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you're having a party and need a venue, well I have the spot. You organize the party and we provide the location. For parties of 20 or more, we make money and so do you. If you have the party at our [venue] we will gladly give you 10% of the proceeds/sales. We will even run special drink prices for your party. Why rent a hall and pay money, when you can host the same party at our place and make money. Birthday Parties, Retirment Parties, Fund Raising Parties, Politcal Parties, Wedding Showers, Baby Showers, even wakes, whatever the event, we're available. If you can fill the house, we can fill your pocket and we look forward to hearing from you.

[Wally Malone]

That is the goal. The first test market was NYC since that is where the International office of the AFM exists. They are now working with Local 802 of NYC who will be marketing in their area to reach out to non-members as well.

 

Wally

 

Works great if you're in Denver or New York. Hope it spreads cross-country.

[Wally Malone]

Eric VB, I understand what you have said but let's hope this service can be of help to musicians. It surely can't hurt.

 

Wally

[jlrush]

Sometimes it's better to know the name of the actual person doing business, as he or she tends to be a slimeball no matter what the name of the joint is they work at or own.

True! There's one fella in town who has single handedly changed the local music scene in the last 25 years. He owns both of the large clubs in town (we're about 120,000) and MIGHT pay one or two bands in town to open for a name act. All the other bands get to play for 'exposure'. You can get on their bad side if you ask for money and might not ever be asked back.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Eric VB, I understand what you have said but let's hope this service can be of help to musicians. It surely can't hurt.

 

Wally

 

Yes. This.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[b5pilot]

As long as the bands/entertainers post accurately and honestly, I say it would be a great idea. I would love to see something like this in the Metro Detoit area.

[tnb]

I like it.

[Nicklab]

I've looked through some of the NYC entries. Truthfully, some of them are a bit vague. And some clubs that I've played have no entries whatsoever.

[Griffinator]

I've looked through some of the NYC entries. Truthfully, some of them are a bit vague. And some clubs that I've played have no entries whatsoever.

 

Which would be a reason for you to contribute, I suspect...

 

 

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Now it's time for a good ol' heapin' helpin' o' cynicism ...

 

I guess this MIGHT play in NYC, Denver, SanFran, Seattle or other large cities where there is a sizable contingent of "professional" musicians. But keep in mind there are thre types of bands:

 

Catagory 1) - Professional band that has "made it". You guys get the best gigs, the best venues and get to open for the best festivals, do out of town gigs - not undesevedly, mind you. You get to turn down the gig you don't like. You have a following that will pack a bar. You don't need this list because you are already on "the circuit."

 

Catagory 2) - Semi-professional bands that have "made it" or professional bands that haven't quite - my particular category. We may luck out when category 1) flakes. Usually, we get to work every week (MY classic rock project perfers to gig less frequently and turn down a lot of work). Most towns/cities have a saturation of these and not enough venues. Law of supply and demand kicks in - too many bands minus not enough venues equals lower quality for the bands. Below scale pay. Shorting the bar. Bring your own PA. Stage too small. No lighting. Cracker-box sound quality. You know the drill. How lame is it that a venue that provides live music two days a week doesn't even have a house system?

 

Category 3) - Fast food drive-through and music store employees that would kill for a gig. Though scientific research that I just made up, for every Cat 1 in town, there are about 3 to 5 Cat 2 and 15 to 20 Cat 3. These are the garage projects that pop up every time some hormonally charged, post-pubecent with $259.99 can lay their hands on a BC Rich. Now, before you jump me, we all start out Cat 3. A handful of these bands are good enough to be Cat 2 if they actually had gear and spent some time on "intro-bridge-solo-outro" as a band instead of ripping off Dave Mustaine riffs. There are plenty of venues willing to take these people in for "exposure" - think of the private parties, the weddings, maybe someone from "Ray's" or even Seattle might see us!!!! (I have played Devil's Advocate in this argument a dozen time and still do with my metal project). These guys don't have $15 for strings, let alone whatever they need to join the union, and an no untried band is going to go into the corner bar, wave a union card around, demand scale and NOT get sent packing.

 

Usually this gets out be word of mouth. I have talked to some "out of towners" here and they lament that our local music scene is quite cut-throat compared to larger cities, where everyone hangs out together, sings Kum-By-Ya around the camp fire and give each other hugs. I personally didn't see much of that myself in California, and what better way of getting a little Schadenfreude than to watch your competition get ripped off at "Club Band Hell" on State Street. As noted above, most of the small venues change ownership groups and LLCs faster than parteners get changed at a Swinger's club for Meth addicts.

 

In the end, I hope this list helps. But I'm thinking that even the most horrible-paying, no-PA having, percent of bar rip-off venue on the list is still in a position to book a live band every week if it wants. And if not, there's always a DJ. As long as there are more bands then there are venues, it won't matter. Short of legally turning live music into a closed shop (THAT will keep out the riff-raff), I'd be interested in how the AFM is going to fix this.

 

My rant is done. I now return you to your regularly schedule thread, already in progress.

[_Sweet Willie_]

I've looked through some of the NYC entries. Truthfully, some of them are a bit vague. And some clubs that I've played have no entries whatsoever.

 

Which would be a reason for you to contribute, I suspect...

 

 

Indeed. I looked, too. There's plenty of information that could be provided. Also, there could be a little more of a system to sort that information.

 

Stuff like quality/wear of backline would be really useful in NYC, where many of us are more than happy to use amplification that's provided, but every once in a while get a dog.

 

Specifics about how the soundguy worked with the band during soundcheck would be helpful, recoginizing, of course, that often the same soundguy doesn't work every night.

 

I agree that this might play better in larger cities where the bands are less likely to know each other. In less populated areas I'd think the market and the networking may make venuology less useful.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[Wally Malone]

Again, great dialogue! I'm glad to see there are different opinions here at the Lowdown. After all we do have a diverse group from different categories as SuferNoFools points out. I know that even those that start out as Cat 3 can have intentions of moving up the chain. There are those from small towns that outgrow the gigs in their town and start driving up to a few hours to get the level of work and they are looking to cities larger than where they are from.

 

We also must recognize that it isn't always about the money but the respect we get from those hiring us. As Willie pointed out in NYC the backline alone is an important issue along with the sound issues. Knowing about particular load ins and parking can be important to know before arriving at the gig.

 

I'm going to contact Matt at the AFM tomorrow and see if I can get him to drop by and check out this thread. Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to post to this thread. This isn't about union or non-union musicians. In the long run Unions do things for the benefit of all in the profession. This can also be seen in our campaign in D.C. dealing with carry-on instruments. This is also of help to those going on vacation wanting to take their guitar on the plane.

 

For those of you who don't consider yourselves professional musicians but would like to help those that are please check out the link below about "Friends of AFM". There is no charge to join but you could be of real help in the political action campaigns that the AFM has taken on.

http://www.afm.org/departments/legislative-office/friends-of-afm

 

Wally

[_Sweet Willie_]

Thanks, Wally. It's always been helpful to have you chiming in from time to time to help us understand what the AFM is up to, but also how the work of the AFM may connect to us from hobbyist to amateur to semi-pro to pro.

 

I also wonder if venuology could also draw in some basic info from club websites. For example, many NYC clubs do provide info on their backlines and desired load-in practices. As well as info on booking gigs with them. That said, if the "official" word from the venue via its website or what have you was part of the profile, then players could react to how accurately described that stuff is by the venue itself.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[Wally Malone]

Willie, this is why I have invited Matt Plummer to the Lowdown so that he will see the thoughts of the Lowdowners and consider some of our suggestions.

 

Wally

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Willie, this is why I have invited Matt Plummer to the Lowdown so that he will see the thoughts of the Lowdowners and consider some of our suggestions.

 

Does this mean I have to go back and fix my spelling errors?

[TimR]

And once the bad guys get a bad rap, and musicians stop playing at their place, what do they do? They simply change the name of the venue and none are the wiser.

 

Sometimes it's better to know the name of the actual person doing business, as he or she tends to be a slimeball no matter what the name of the joint is they work at or own.

 

(Same goes for bands, of course. When a band is blacklisted by venues it simply changes its name and gets back on the circuit.)

 

And if that happens being an on-line fast reacting service word will get round very quickly.

 

I see this as being a very good idea.

 

We have a national website with a similar idea - www.lemonrock.com

 

It doesn't go as far as listing rates but it's a Wiki. I haven't used it in anger yet. I don't know if you gave a bad review whether the person you gave it to could edit it out, or whether an employee could write lots of false info. I suppose if there was a lot of vandalism to a page the wiki owners could just lock that page.

[Matt Plummer]

Hi everyone. I'm sorry that I'm late to the party, but I wanted to thank you for the ideas and feedback. We definitely plan to flesh out some of the search options as well as add more backline info. If you think of other ideas, please contact me at mplummer at afm dot org.

 

In regards to SufferNoFools' post, I do think that Venuology will be most effective early on in larger cities. However, as more musicians start using the site, including touring musicians, I think there will be more than enough reason and data to expand into more sparsely populated areas.

 

I don't believe that "as long as there are more bands then there are venues, it won't matter." No one, even the most professionally uninterested hobbyists, would ideally like to work for free or in bad conditions. The solutions are awareness, education and above all, sticking together. Hopefully, Venuology can help a bit in these areas.

 

Please post club reviews on Venuology! Besides NYC and Dallas/FW, we're expanding into Colorado, Boston and more this week. http://venuology.com. And thanks again for the lively debate and feedback. It is greatly appreciated.

 

cheers,

Matt

 

 

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Matt,

 

1) Thank you for putting the apostrophe in the correct place. I find mastery of punctuation refreshing.

 

2) I still stand by my assertion about "...more bands than there are venues..." Maybe professionally uniterested hobbyists in NYC and Denver won't work far below scale in some poorly lit, poorly ventilated, fetid, meth-soaked biker rat-hole, but I see it all the time here in the less ... uh ... socially refined areas of the country.