I was asked to turn down (longish)

[slowfinger]

We rehearse in a nice set of spaces close to where I live in Melbourne - this is one of the rooms:

http://www.hydrastudios.com.au/Finals/Reh_room5.jpg

 

About half way through the afternoon the chap who runs the place popped in to say that the people 2 rooms away had complained about the loud bass, and would I please turn down. I complied of course, without complaint. My immediate though was that's odd - when outside the rooms I can clearly hear other bands playing, while ours is barely audible. ie although we play loud in the room, other play much louder.

 

Anyway, the point is that normally I can hardly hear myself above the roar of the gits (lead plays a Strat through a 170watt Line 6 combo, rhythm plays a Hamer through a 30w Orange combo, both set at about 9 o'clock ie 3 on the dial. I play an Epi EB3 with flats through what it says in my sig. The drummer is very gentle.) In this room, when I turn up more than 12 o'clock on both the gain and master my cab sounds less than pleasant to my ear - like it being overdriven (is that what you call 'farting out'?). Normally I have the cab flat on the floor, and play against the wall next to a coridor, but yesterday I put it up on a couple of milk crates as has been mentioned in recent threads here, played against an outside wall, and I was able to hear myself better.

 

So gentlepersons, does my sound get lost in the room because of the muddy bass, the modest cab, or the well damped room (see pic - it now has more egg-carton stuff on the walls, and blocks of foam in the corners as well)? And how come the bass was annoying ppl 2 rooms away when I had trouble hearing it clearly in our room?

 

Recent 'recordings' can by found in our Myspace page in the sig - the first 2 are from a gig last December.

 

btw the band were rather pleased with my new-found infamy, and I have taken the handle 'loudfinger' instead of 'slowfinger'.

[jlrush]

Could be that the carpet dampened your volume some when the amp was set on the floor, and after you set your amp on milk crates the volume naturally went up because it wasn't soaked up by the carpet. Flats won't cut through the mix as well as rounds either.

Are your guitarists playing too loud?

[Michele C.]

I think that flatwounds and an EB-0 make for a lot of thud, maybe you need the mids.

I solved a lot of my problems following Bryan Beller's advice on this month's Strike Force column.

By the way, I took off a set of 40-100 flatwounds and used one of the three sets of BS66 Billy Sheehan signatures I had bought a while ago: 43-110 and stainless steel.

I have just one guitarist to deal with as the singer holds a guitar, but plays clean and barely audible.

I also resorted to the use of a pick when I have to play fast, it works better than a compressor to equalize my sound (yes, my fault) and gives me an attack that goes through.

[b5pilot]

The lows are what go through walls and mids will cut through in the room so I would back off on the lows and increase the mids and that should help. raising up the cab or at least tilting it up toward you will definately help you to hear.

[picker]

Try to get your amp off the floor, or isolated from it somehow. That might help keep it from transferring vibration through the floor and the walls. Turning down the lows, as suggested above, might help some too.

[butcherNburn]

With other bands playing, are they sure it was you? If it's a decent situation you can have one of your band mates play your bass while you step into the other bands room to hear for yourself.

[SteveC]

Thankfully, when we practice, our keyboard player uses a keyboard with built in speakers, the guitar player and I use our combo amps set loud enough to balance, our drummer uses his kit. We don't set up a PA for vocals. We are in a circle, we can hear, we can see, we can think. Best rehearsals ever.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I find that bass players inherently play too loud and that the drummer then ups his power to compensate and the guitar player... well, it just goes 'round and 'round.

 

The physics involving bas sin small rooms... the bass pretty much passes right through the walls like they were not there.

 

The best way that a guitar player, bass player, or anyone else in a band using an amp can set up is to get the speakers up near their ears. If they do this, they will hear themselves more easily, they will be able to move themselves in and out of the 'hot spot' at will, and everyone will be able to play at a lower level.

 

Another thing to consider: Practicing at stun levels pretty much assured that you will be playing at hugely inappropriate levels in live rooms, you will be unwelcome and not get jobs. Amplifiers exist to get the volume of softer instruments like guitar and bass up loud enough to compete with brass and drums. These days, a drummer ends up getting wrist bone damage trying to keep up with the amps.... we're way too fucking loud, people! And if there was any scientific evidence that this loudness helps us, I'd be all for it. But the PA exists to fill the room with sound, and it would be impossible for you to get a proper balance from the stage, and it really sucks when there is no blend because the stage volume is competing with the PA and the balances are different (and there are no vocals coming from the stage volume mix other than out of phase monitor bounceback...); and when you play too loud your body 'compresses' the sound in an attempt to protect itself, so you don't even hear what the audience hears, which means that you are playing for yourself, so why are you on stage annoying me? If your ears ring after playing, you play to loud and you are doing damage to yourself, damage that will become permanent over time.

 

Back to your problem: small rooms are tough on bass, getting the speakers in the air will help. Consider some sort of trapping. No matter how you shake it, traps are expensive and traps to handle bass frequencies even moreso. Foam on the wall won't do anything at al for low end, the performance of foams falls off steeply at 250Hz. Bundles of insulation help, the denser the better. 703 or 705 type insulating boards, mounted in large sealed boxes with the insulation floating a couple of inches from the back of the box and at least a half inch from the face of the box, and the face of the box being 1/4" while the rest id 3/4 or better, and the box hanging from the wall but standing off a couple of inches will really tighten the bass up... provided you have enough of these boxes to affect the sound in the room.

 

also consider setting up in an off-axis fashion so that you are not aimed directly at a wall that bounces the sound back at you and so that there is not a flat wall behind you bouncing the sound right back at you. Part of what makes it hard for you guys to hear yourselves is the bounceback of unmuted sound arriving at your ears a couple of milliseconds behind the primary signal, smearing the whole image. If you look at a small hard walled practice room, there are usually multiple reflections from all directions.

[slowfinger]

Useful responses thank you everyone. What I've learnt:

 

EB3 + flats = even more mud

(sad because I like my 'bedroom tone' (actually dining room tone) and don't like the feel of rounds now that I've used flats for a while)

 

Save up for a J (from the Bryan Beller article cited)

(I want to do that anyway - I want a bass that goes 'burrr' instead of 'doooo'. I think a Sadowsky like Tal Wilkenfeld's will suit me well - they are only $3k here - but a Squier VMJ is more likely)

 

Avoid symmetry in cab placement

(I can experiment with that)

 

Get the guitars to turn down

(and pigs might fly)

 

thanks again

loudfinger

[jlrush]

Speaking of the Squier basses, have you tried the Classic Vibe jazz? It's brass bridge helps make it a little brighter and I like the Olympic White. It may be my next jazz bass.

Some flats are brighter than others too. I bet some TI Jazz flats would be fairly bright on either the VMod or CVibe jazz, and both should be brighter than the EB3.

[Davo-London]

I find that bass players inherently play too loud and that the drummer then ups his power to compensate and the guitar player... well, it just goes 'round and 'round.

 

 

I find the opposite. The guitarist is always, always, always too loud. They can turn right down and still be heard. That's not true of the bass. I'm always the quietest guy in our band in the hope that everyone turns down to my volume rather than the opposite.

 

Davo

[The Bear Jew]

I can't believe nobody has suggested a Taint Smite as the proper resolution for this problem.

 

You guys are slipping.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

 

I find the opposite. The guitarist is always, always, always too loud. They can turn right down and still be heard. That's not true of the bass. I'm always the quietest guy in our band in the hope that everyone turns down to my volume rather than the opposite.

 

Davo

 

The guitarist knows how loud he is. The bassist often doesn't because of the cabinet, cabinet positioning, loading, wavelength.... the sound develops past him. He may not think that he is loud, but everyone 10-12 feet away will.

[picker]

I can't believe nobody has suggested a Taint Smite as the proper resolution for this problem.

 

You guys are slipping.

 

I can't speak for everybody, but I figured that was your call, O Thou Sultan of Smite...

[The Bear Jew]

Situations like this are made for liberal (and thunderous) smite distribution.

[picker]

Pay heed and smiteth the unholy taint of the nearest overloud guitarist with all due haste, for the Sultan has spoken!

 

Uh, do wash your hands afterward, though, guys...

[The Bear Jew]

That would mean I'd be smiting myself, which would cause a disruption in the time/space continuum.

[Griffinator]

can't have that now, can we?

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

can't have that now, can we?

 

Does beating your head against the wall count? If so, I smiteth myself often and well...

 

[slowfinger]

Speaking of thunder - I have just added to our Myspace the song we were playing just before the aforementioned complaint (should be the 1st one there) - our lead brings a Zoom along to some sessions and captured the offending performance. I think it sounds great.

 

Last night I took the flats off and re-fitted the 50-110 Fender rounds I had on previously just to see if I can bear them.

[jlrush]

Was the song in question Shakin' All Over? It's only a recording, and there could be several reasons why, but the loudest instrument is the guitarist who is playing the main lick. Next I can hear the vocal and drums, then bass. Can't even hear the other guitar.

Is that guy always louder? The recording reminds me of a couple of guitar players that I've played with. They're always louder than everyone else and you can't tell them either.

[jlrush]

During the second listen I realized that both the skinny string players are overpowering everyone else.

[Brocko777]

That would mean I'd be smiting myself, which would cause a disruption in the time/space continuum.

You meant Time/Smite continuum.

 

Brocko

[Michele C.]

Last night I took the flats off and re-fitted the 50-110 Fender rounds I had on previously just to see if I can bear them.

 

I can understand you. I loved my flats too. But I have learnt that my bedroom tone does not tell anything. At stage volume the lows are much more present and my ringing bedroom tone can be boom boom again. My beautifully round bedroom tone becomes unbearable belly shaking.

I think I have also found out that rehearseal rooms are too small to let the bass blossom the way it does live, or maybe it blossoms in the next room :-)