the end of guitar trends?

[p90jr]

Last night a friend said that the relic phenomenon was probably the last big guitar trend, that the gear scene is now like the music scene to which it's tied - so fragmented that there will not be a prevailing wind blowing things this way or that way. There's more resurrected vintage manufacturer names and lines than any of us can keep track of, even some that make us question if they're handing out money in China to anyone who resurrects an old brand. There's a million boutique makers who want to stay boutique makers rather than grow and take on the big names... and everyone will probably inevitably see their piece of the pie shrink as the hordes don't ditch this for that every year or two to keep current with the prevailing aesthetic - because there seems to not be a prevailing aesthetic, anymore... or prevailing superstars who are that influential on a large scale anymore. New Harmony Rockets and Ibanez Jems hang side by side in music stores now, and it might be interesting if they - and the styles that lead people to acquire them - end up being played side by side within the same band of kids.

[Tennessee]

Well let's look at what you are alluding to: guitars are tied to music, which is a actually a variable that you call the music scene.

Fair enough.

So if we can make the safe assumption that people will always make music of some sort, then the question simply becomes with what?

If you look back in time, you can see influences of various types, with different instruments, that brought about "improvements" as time went along. The kick pedal on a bass drum, or the invention of the guitar electric pickup would be two good examples from decades past. More modern influences would be the entry of the inexpensive keyboard with all those wonderful features, and of course the computer, actually a tool for helping a person to make music but some tried to actually let it take over, (poorly). You can almost make correlations to the improvements driving music styles, not the other way around. Was Techno invented, or was it a result of a driving beat track that came off a keyboard effect?

If you look at all these, they share one common thread - they make it easier for the person to play any given instrument at a higher level. The capo, for instance, helps an acoustic player not have to recreate all those barre chords.

As far as mating an improvement or gear trend to a style, I would say that will happen only, and only if, it makes it easier for the performer to do what they do. Did Jon Bonham have a click-track? Probably not, but most modern drummers do today. Did Jimi ever use an ear implant? Who knows, but it is the norm today. I don't know if the world will ever buy into an electric guitar that helps you to learn, but they are out there, like Fretlight.

That's the driving influence. When all the Claptons and Plants and BonJovis of the world are dead, what will the new players be playing? I guess we'll just have to wait and see. It's fun to see Steve Winwood in a reunion concert with Eric and watch Winwood use that old organ with those old rotating leslies, but nobody really wants to haul that around anymore, do they? Hell, I can buy a Danelectro pedal for $30 that will almost do the same thing, and if I pop $299, I can get it just about dead on, available at any Guitar Center right now. Ease of use will drive the future, and in my mind, music in general.

[mattstevens]

Its the same as everything - everyone is in their own niche. I reckon headless guitars are the next big thing? Ironic retro is the future!!!

[p90jr]

Yes, TN,

 

but that kind of makes the point in a way. Once you needed that Hammond and Leslie. Now you have a million ways to get that sound, so Winwood dragging it out again doesn't mean Hammond B3 sales and Leslie cabs will get a certain sales boost this year even if 10,000 people want that sound... there's a hundred products of every sort for them to turn to... most of them are playing Nord Electro 2 with that sound in them anyway.

 

I think the millions of options for both listening and gear will mean a change in the state of things, just as it has changed the record industry... and it might seem chaotic for a bit but it will probably be better.

 

I mean, when Fender and Gibson had a virtual monopoly in the 70s it wasn't a hallmark time for either, was it? Market competition drives innovation (or at least that's what the Libertarians keep telling me).

[p90jr]

Its the same as everything - everyone is in their own niche. I reckon headless guitars are the next big thing? Ironic retro is the future!!!

 

Probably... and that won't make the PRS players or the vintage Fender and Gibson players all put that stuff aside to rush out and keep up with it. There will just be Klein and Steinberger and (on the power end, I guess) Arbor and Hohner players.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Well, look to the development of violins for an example; things go through dramatic periods of seminal "golden years" innovation, change, stability, further innovation and change, neo and retro periods, innovation and change again, etc., until they settle down into an accepted norm.

[Larryz]

If the "relic phenomenon" is a "trend", I'll be glad when it's over...bangen up a perfectly good guitar with a saw, drill, acid, hatchet, etc. just doesn't do anything for me...it's like taking steroids vs earning muscles the hard way...if a player does enough woodshedding to wear the finish off the neck, it's a good thing...sandpaper and fake grooves are for the bubble gum players who think it makes them look experienced no matter how old or young they are...this includes all Fenders and Gibsons and other Road-Worn-Relic-Fake Jobs...IMHO.

[Tennessee]

Well, Larry, you can look at the other end of the spectrum. I am actually thinking of buying one of those 1959 Epiphone Les Paul reproductions they are advertising now. In that swell pink fur lined case. (Ugh, but pink was hot in 59') It's a beautiful unit, and with the upper level parts they put into it, should be well made, even if it is Asian. A professional setup may just give me my dream jazz and blues guitar.

 

p90, here's kind of my point and I think you get it. I think some genre of music will appear based on an improvement in the instruments. Examples: When Van Halen introduced us to shredding, along with some others, he had performed a lot of surgery on his unit, sort of. So when people wanted to go faster, instead of running up and down the fretboard in parallel, guitar companies said why not put on a 7th string and go more perpendicular so you move your arm less? And then more, let's put on that 8th high string so we almost never have to move our arm at all!

Then with all this speed and heavy up-down picking going on, the basic Fender whammy didn't cut it. Enter Floyd Rose with a locking nut and fine tuners at the whammy so they could keep on going. More metal, more severe.

Inventions dictate the type of music, at least in some cases.

We are all starting to see more of those Keytars, I think they are called. Kind of a modern keyboard that looks something like a guitar. You strap it on like an accordian, but no bellows, and lots of effects. I've already seen Asian versions for under $500. It was so cool sounding I almost bought the Asian one right there, but figured what the heck, I can do that on my Yamaha keyboard and just add a track to my Tascam.

 

But there is another MAJOR factor out there. People, people, people...Large amounts of people must like the music, or it will stay small, or fail completely. I worked for Time Warner Music for eleven years, and they always had three big things. A song had to have a hook, it had to have some sort of driving beat, and you should be able to dance to it. The entrance of metal, (no offense, shredders), along with the internet did more to jumble the music industry than any other two items. Chaos reigned. Hooks, dancing and the predictable 4/4 beat gave way to mosh pits and rage.

So what did large amounts of people do??

Enter Country & Western, with their predictable hooks, driving beats, and you certainly could dance to it. Take the violin and pedal steel off the stage and you had a pop-rock band, or just a plain Top 40 rock band. But people ate it up, because in all honesty, how long can you listen to arpeggios and scale runs in full distortion along with blood lyrics? I applaude the sheer aptitude of someone like John5, but most of his music just doesn't say "Multi-million seller" to me. Slipknot is considered very successful at a little over 4 million in CD sales with two albums, but Shania Twain's "Come on Over" album did 20 Million in the US alone, and a total of 34 Million worldwide. Not even a horserace.

 

Improvements, applauded by the people, will dictate what we play and listen to in the future.

 

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

Epi Les Paul relics? Kinda funny, but if ya like the way they feel, play, and sound, cool enough.

[p90jr]

TN,

 

I agree about the general music thing, and I've kind of said that here a bunch of times. Never has the gulf between what's popular in the mainstream vs. rock music been larger.

 

As for the gear... George Van Epps was playing 7 strings in the 50s (and he had a 7 string Gretsch signature model in the 60s... my dad had a record or two when I was a kid)...

 

http://www.gruhn.com/features/vaneps/EG2974ang.jpg

 

... and keytars were a prominent late '70s/early 80s thing, the current craze is retro new wave... it's also already out of vogue among the young hipsters I know by a few years because it's grown to the point where not only hipster bands who imitate Missing Persons and Gary Numan have keytars, so they're all abandoning it, which is another factor in rock not building big audiences anymore...

 

Those innovations both were made, fell out of favor or never caught on, but then became a trend that brought them back to more and more people. What if there's fewer acts with the might to drive those trends?

[p90jr]

Perhaps this is the future of guitar:

[video:youtube]

 

and this is probably the future of music (God help us all):

[video:youtube]

 

(someone forwarded me this clip today with a the suggestion that maybe we should let the Priests of the Temples of Syrinx burn all the music and recording gear for the good of mankind).

 

 

[picker]

I think that is a killer instrument that isn't really a guitar. I think people probably said the same thing when the first electric guitar hit the market. If it finds a market, I suspect something similar will happen with it as happened with electric guitar; It will attract it's own virtuoso players, and playing it will become it's own artform.'

 

Wll it replace the electric guitar in it's current form?

 

Nah. There are still acoustic guitars out there...

[Caevan O’Shite]

Perhaps this is the future of guitar:

[video:youtube]

 

No, God! No!

 

___________ http://www.leelefever.com/archives/scuzzlebutt.jpg

 

Splendid demo of the video arcade sounds of yesteryear; any guitarist could get the hang of that contraption rrreeeaally fast, but someone who had spent some time woodshedding on it would NOT be able to make a quick transition to a REAL guitar with strings without weeks or months of practice, practice, practice. It's an expensive toy, NOT a musical intsrument.

 

"Effects can be inserted into the signal chain, but they are usually foot pedals which makes the experience of controlling effects disjointed from what your hands are doing. Plus, you can only really make use of one pedal at a time.

 

Even in the (rare) case that controls are mounted on the guitar, the hand needs to switch between strings and controls. This may be okay if you only use effects occasionally, but when every note you play needs the controls set differently good luck with that."

 

WTF is this dork saying?

 

Don't ask him, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

[stratcat2k]

caevan - while i agree that the dork that wrote that knows about guitar playing probably about as much as a pig knows about quantum entanglement, i find it kinda interesting. while it needs a lot of work, sonically, it may have some potential as a sort of guitar synth (and seems to be a little easier to use then the old Synthaxes). that touch pad control surface in particular seems interesting to play with.

 

maybe a little more work on the sound patches may be just the thing to take this little toy over the top...

[p90jr]

Johnny Greenwood (Radiohead) and Nels Cline and others use the Kaoss Pad a lot, which is basically what that seems to be, and Lyle Workman and the guy in Muse just had them built right into guitars (combined with sustainiac pickups to free up the right hand).

 

Workman's guitar

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FMBJEkaC8Lw/RzUCSJ4kstI/AAAAAAAAKzo/cxSCY0yVIoU/s400/kaoss.jpg

 

I think the white one above has the potential to catch on because it's very "guitar hero." You wouldn't necessarily have to learn guitar first... it wouldn't require mastery of touch and vibrato, etc.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I can dig a Kaoss Pad/touch-screen addition to a real guitar, that's very cool; but these things that remove strings and any need to actually accomplish ANYTHING as a player, as a musician, irritate me. All we need is still more dumbing-down, "emperor's new clothes", and rewarded mediocrity in this world...

 

'Tis that tale told by an idiot, filled with sound and fury, signifying NOTHING.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

so, you know someone who is going to kill all guitarists and all those trying to make money off of guitarists?

[Larryz]

Well, Larry, you can look at the other end of the spectrum. I am actually thinking of buying one of those 1959 Epiphone Les Paul reproductions they are advertising now. In that swell pink fur lined case. (Ugh, but pink was hot in 59') It's a beautiful unit, and with the upper level parts they put into it, should be well made, even if it is Asian. A professional setup may just give me my dream jazz and blues guitar.

 

 

Tennessee, I have looked at the other end of the spectrum and I bought a re-issued Jaguar & Jazzmaster made in USA and they came in pristine new condition to include flatwound strings, etc. both are matched with white bodies and red tortise pick guards...I'm just not a re-create every ding and scratch signature model kind a guy...I do try to understand that there is a market out there for new "relics" and some people with the bucks do not share my opinion, I'll still be glad to see the end of this "trend" if it is one...I wish you many years of happiness with the new reproduction and hope it fulfills your dreams...

[Tennessee]

Well, Larry, I have not bought it...yet. Was looking at the ad again last night. That Epiphone thing is a slight hitter in value, and it is really a lot like my Epi Standard Plus, save it is a few hundred more dollars. Maybe I'll just put Grover Tuners and Mallory Caps in my Standard Plus and call it done.

 

I just read an interesting article in Premier Guitar on music. How conventionally, most players say that it is your fingers that are the actual sound generators, when in reality it is your brain that actually dictates if the sound is good or not. Common sense says that if your brain doesn't like it, you leave it or change it.

If that is true, My "people" side of the success equasion would have to, in their brains, like what they hear. again, common sense. But oddly, we seem to now be surrounded by people with narrow views on music, and their sales show it.

I try, at least two-three times a week to listen to what is now current. I can't take anymore. I buy, on average, about 2-6 CD's a month. My latest four: Brian Seltzer, John Mayer, Guns and Roses Greatest, and Susan Boyle, (for my wife). Most of what I buy is related in some manner to classic rock music or even older. My brain just likes it better. I do not like to be upset by music, I like to be entertained and relaxed, if possible, like a fine glass of wine or a good cold beer. I like to think I am diverse, but I do NOT buy heavy, death, grunge, whatever metal is out there now, nor do I buy Rap. Sorry, don't consider talking music. I can talk, I cannot sing. Sometimes a little Hip-hop, but rare, rare, rare.

 

Maybe the relic craze is out there since 60's, 70's, and 80's bands are all seeing a resurgence in popularity due to the sheer lack of what I quoted in an earlier post. Lots of NO Driving beat, no hook, and you can't dance to it. So it goes back to the people, and the instrument companies don't have anything new to build. Hence, relics. I know I fixed a major crack in the body of a Roadworn Fender a few weeks ago for a local dealer. Easiest fix I ever did. Glue, clamp, sand and make it look like the rest of the junk! He paid a guy $125 for a cracked body Roadworn, after my $25 one hour fix, he sold it for $600 and told the new owner about the crack. People are nuts.

 

p90, you are right about the keytars and 7 string guitars, bad examples on my part. Actually, there is nothing?? new out there now, except maybe modeling amps, which are more of a gimmick/fun item than anything. They do, however sell.

[p90jr]

so, you know someone who is going to kill all guitarists and all those trying to make money off of guitarists?

 

I merely think that will be so many options that it will be so fragmented (like the rock record industry these days) that there won't be prevailing trends.

 

Sum up rock in 2009 in a quick sentence that represents what was going on?

 

Now, sum up rock in 1989, or 1979, or 1969...

 

The original bands here locally have always demonized the cover bands (and I've always played both and mostly made good money from playing both) as ruining the market for them and keeping people on an unadventurous diet of the same old same old. thing is, the cover bands here these days aren't getting a lot of business and demonize the touring tribute bands for the same thing, now. The touring tribute bands (who imitate everything about an act) play the larger theater clubs and there usually are no more than 2 in one month. The real culprit: people are content with the clubs that have djs. If there's no djs they're happy with satellite radio on in the club, or ESPN... I played a weekend in a town full of Casino resorts on the coast... we got paid well to play a casino lounge, but the dj who played before, during and after our set got more, the djs get big billing on the electronic billboards outside the hotels... the djs are the real draw... Djs use Koass Pads and other gadgets... if one them starts incorporating this digital guitar thing into their show I'm sure it would be a smash, and others would follow... and I've played in front of these crowds, they'd be more taken by that they were at my solos... and they are the "normal people" who represent mainstream america these days.

 

I'm not preaching "the end of guitar," but I'm not discounting it being marginalized... or marginalized even further... I just glanced at the top 10 for this week and there's just a couple of guitar - oriented acts (Train and Lady Antebellum) out of 10.

 

The future doesn't belong to most of us... Guitar isn't the dominant instrument in popular music anymore. Who's to say that remaking it to more resemble the current dominant instruments (synths and computers) won't overtake it?

 

They'll always be guitarists. And I know 3 harpists in my city.

[p90jr]

I also should point out most people describe me as a Devil's Advocate, always arguing another side of an argument just to explore whether it has any merit.

 

I blame my dad for for raising me in a totally Socratic atmosphere...

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I merely think that will be so many options that it will be so fragmented (like the rock record industry these days) that there won't be prevailing trends.

 

Oh. I view that as a proliferation of trends.

[Tennessee]

So Bill, when does a proliferation of trends no longer become trends, but chaos? Look at any given product line. Features, which some may call trends, fade in and out like cloud patterns. Often products dissapear simply because there are just too many options available for the public. Music, artistic as it may be, is simply another product.

 

I challanged Editor Molinda a couple months back to find out exactly what the readership of this mag really wanted to see on the pages, so they could expand and do better. (Read - make more money) I would not want to be in his shoes. Just what are people listening to out there?? And how far can you stray from your core readership, should the data dictate change? Our only real reliable pieces of data would be store sales and online downloads, both trackable. Money talks, bu((s%$t walks. I challanged him with an online poll, but have since changed my mind, people lie too much.

 

I can understand the DJ thing. More predictable to know DJs are bound by the quality of the recording, even if modified by the DJ, than a possible unknown band who may or may not perform well. And aren't DJ cover charges usually a little cheaper? More money for other things, like alcohol.

 

IMHO, I still think the general public is patiently waiting for another great rock & roll band to emerge. But that's just me. I am thankful to have lived through all those great years of true rock & roll.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Perhaps they are waiting for some other musical style entirely.

 

A challenge for someone without an answer is very political but not very useful. The goal of any business is usually to maintain current customers while growing the business, in part by attracting new customers.

 

Polls are stupid, for a lot of reasons. Ask anyone who designs them professionally, and you'll find that you can get any answer that you want by how you ask the questions, meanwhile people will do what they do in spite of what they SAY they will do and think that they will do.

 

The problem that I see with a guitar-centric magazine is that there are so few remarkable guitar players. For a lot of years mags of this type (music and recording...) have been existing by re-interviewing old favorites, hoping and waiting for new ones, but there just aren't enough new ones to support a mag anymore. They've also existed by becoming gear whores, and I find this most odious. But at the same time, whenever readers are poled, they want more information about gear. That indicates to me that I am way out of step with what the average guy wants, since the last thing that I want is advertising posing as content. There is little to be gained by interviewing Slash AGAIN or Clapton AGAIN. Finger style guitarists don't have enough market penetration, jazz guitarists and classical guitarists are pretty much invisible. I'd like a mag that educates on several levels... historical, technical, musical instruction, introduction to players and styles with which I may not be familiar.... and Guitar Player in particular has done this more or less since its inception. But the vast majority of readers wants gear. (sigh....)

 

[p90jr]

I merely think that will be so many options that it will be so fragmented (like the rock record industry these days) that there won't be prevailing trends.

 

Oh. I view that as a proliferation of trends.

 

You're correct. I didn't address the size and influence of the trends.

 

You win, Bill... this time.

[p90jr]

Perhaps they are waiting for some other musical style entirely.

 

A challenge for someone without an answer is very political but not very useful. The goal of any business is usually to maintain current customers while growing the business, in part by attracting new customers.

 

Polls are stupid, for a lot of reasons. Ask anyone who designs them professionally, and you'll find that you can get any answer that you want by how you ask the questions, meanwhile people will do what they do in spite of what they SAY they will do and think that they will do.

 

The problem that I see with a guitar-centric magazine is that there are so few remarkable guitar players. For a lot of years mags of this type (music and recording...) have been existing by re-interviewing old favorites, hoping and waiting for new ones, but there just aren't enough new ones to support a mag anymore. They've also existed by becoming gear whores, and I find this most odious. But at the same time, whenever readers are poled, they want more information about gear. That indicates to me that I am way out of step with what the average guy wants, since the last thing that I want is advertising posing as content. There is little to be gained by interviewing Slash AGAIN or Clapton AGAIN. Finger style guitarists don't have enough market penetration, jazz guitarists and classical guitarists are pretty much invisible. I'd like a mag that educates on several levels... historical, technical, musical instruction, introduction to players and styles with which I may not be familiar.... and Guitar Player in particular has done this more or less since its inception. But the vast majority of readers wants gear. (sigh....)

 

Yep... it's actually a psychological phenomenon based in a subconscious desire to be liked and win approval... people trick themselves into giving the safest answer that won't disagree with what they imagine to be the consensus. Therefore, polls and focus groups and ratings systems are actually never correct, or helpful in doing anything good.

 

Those awful TV shows you stare at in disbelief that a couple of million was blown putting a few episodes together to see if it hits? Focus groups reacted positively at every stage of planning those. Very little hits the air that wasn't rated a surefire hit by a cross section representative of the market beforehand. A lot of music is like that, too, these days.

 

I don't think I've ever felt in step with what the average guy wants...

 

I don't mind the gear reviews and profiles, but I don't read the majority of it... and it certainly isn't the first stuff I look at in the magazine.

[p90jr]

Flaming Lips dbl neck sg 12 string/koass pad + guitar hero controller

[desertbluesman]

the end of guitar trends?

 

Never happen, trends come with teenage years and continue on until you find utility value as a good replacement strategy. When there are no more teenagers, there will be less trends.

[p90jr]

What if fewer and fewer teenagers play guitar? Or listen to guitar-based music (that one is almost a present reality)?

 

Like the Flaming Lips guy says above, most teenagers now think you play the guitar by pressing 5 colored buttons on the neck.

[Larryz]

Teenagers are not the only trend setters...sometimes retro becomes a trend and old is cool again...I don't care how cool it is, you won't catch me wearing my pants below my underwear...but I'll still be playing guitar...