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How Flat a Radius to not fret out w low action?


tribalfusion

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Does anyone know technically how flat a guitar's radius needs to be to bend without fretting out if the action is in the 2 or 3/64ths of an inch range like Holdsworth's action on a neck with little or no relief?

 

Is 16" a flat enough radius or does it need to be 20" or higher? Allan himself uses a 25" inch radius and his signature model is a 20" radius though he himself doesn't bend much these days...

 

Thanks

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Welcome to the GPF, tribalfusion!

 

Wow, that's a pretty flat r, I was going to suggest 12"r and up for a neck with moderate/light relief, and 16"r and up, maybe a 20"r, for a straighter neck with little or no relief.

 

Are you building or modifying a neck or guitar, or figuring out what to shop for in one?

 

If you want to emulate Allan Holdsworth in any way, go with that 20"r or 25"r. If that's just a reference point, try 16"r or 20"r, or a compound/conical r...

 

I really like compound radii or conical radii, where the nut and 1st-fret are a smaller, curvier r, and the fretboard gradually gets flatter and flatter with larger, flatter radii as you go up, with the action set by measuring from the last/highest fret to the underside of each individual string, one at a time. Easy chord fingering, buzz-free bending, and a flatter, classical-like plane across the strings presented to the picking-hand and fingers near the bridge. One of those "best of both worlds" scenarios, for sure!

 

What string gauges are you going with? String gauge, and scale-length, will both affect the string-tension, and thus also affect just how prone they are to buzzing against the higher frets when bending.

 

Scale-length comes into play here, too, as far as how little relief/low an action/how curvy or flat a radius can be gotten by with; the increased tension of a longer scale-length helps some, as well, like a Fenderish 25.5" scale-length and up.

 

It's worth noting (no pun intended) that a good deal of the fretting-out during bends occurs in the upper regions of the fretboard, where the trussrod has less and less direct influence.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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How low the action can be is more a matter of string excursion, based upon how hard you hit the strings. Me, I'm a pounder, I play acoustic and electric and I use the same touch on both, so my actions can only get so low, regardless of radius or bending.

 

The only guitar that has even given me trouble was a particular vintage Jazzmaster with the white binding up the neck... that radius was too much, when I'd try to bend a string it would 'ground out' on the frets. My older, non-bound neck jazzmasters were fine. All of my other guitars, from Les Pauls, J-160es, Strats, Gretsches, and custom radius necks of various stripes, I can bend for days.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Welcome aboard Tribalfusion...I just bend'em all till my fingers get sore and I don't worry about the raduis so I'll let the pro's have a go at your technical question...I don't bend strings on the Jag or the Jazz or the acoustic/electric as much as I do on the Strats & Tele...
Take care, Larryz
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Hi

 

Thanks for the replies...I already play a plekked guitar with 16" radius but have noticed a tiny bit of fret out occasionally at the 1/32 action range. The new guitar is being built and will have at least a 16" and I am leaning towards 18-20"

 

I use .009s on a 25.5" scale guitar and this is for legato fusion playing a la Holdsworth and early Tribal Tech

 

Has anyone played any fretboards in the 18" and up range? I played the Carvin Holdsworth but it has been a while...

 

Thanks

 

 

 

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Hi

 

Thanks for the replies...I already play a plekked guitar with 16" radius but have noticed a tiny bit of fret out occasionally at the 1/32 action range. The new guitar is being built and will have at least a 16" and I am leaning towards 18-20"

 

I use .009s on a 25.5" scale guitar and this is for legato fusion playing a la Holdsworth and early Tribal Tech

 

Has anyone played any fretboards in the 18" and up range? I played the Carvin Holdsworth but it has been a while...

 

Thanks

 

Well, consider a compound/conical r, say, 12"r - 20"r (12"r at the nut/1st-fret to 20"r at the highest fret). That way, any frets above where you're bending are always of a progressively "flatter" radius- when bending, it really chases away the buzz! :D

 

I've owned and loved a guitar with a 25.5" scale-length, 10"r to 16"r compound-radius fretboard; I'd bet that a 12"r - 20"r truly conical fretboard would really suit you.

 

Dan Erlewine's excellent Guitar Player Repair Guide features Dan MacRostie's mathematical formulas for plotting a true conical-radius fretboard (starting on page 148 in my 2nd-Edition copy), followed by instructions for proper fret-leveling filing techniques for a conically radiused fretboard. You can take that or refer it to your luthier if need be.

 

Dan also mentioned there that two similar formulas have been published in the Guild of American Luthiery's American Lutherie magazine; if you need the specific dates and titles of the issues and articles, just ask, I'll post 'em.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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The greater cache of info pertinent to conically radiused fretboard work is in the section of Dan's book that I referred to above (an excellent refference, I might add- well worth buying, or might be found in a library). No less than three conical radius formulas and two leveling/filing approaches concerning just this subject alone, plus all of the other information on a great variety of subjects throughout the book.

 

Those articles and respective issues of the GAL's American Lutherie magazine are:

 

"In Search Of The Perfect Cone", Tim Earls, Vol. 30, Summer 1992, p 44

 

and

 

"Conical Radius Fretboard Formula", Elaine Hartstein, Vol. 34, Summer 1993, p 46

 

You might possibly find them in one library or another, or search-up and/or contact the GAL.

 

Again, though, their is a great deal of excellent info on this subject in that Repair Guide book, which is very easily found.

 

Let us know how you make out, keep us posted!

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Not to hijack the thread but I have all kinds of radius's on my guitar necks, and I am sure most of them are stock Strat or stock Gibson or stock Ibanez radius, and none of them "fret out" I have had to file some frets on some of my guitars to get them playing without problems, and I have my actions very close to the fingerboard/frets. the 25-1/2 " scale guitars a little higher from the frets than the shorter scale guitars but all of them play well without any problems.
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