diminished chord nomenclature question

[d halfnote]

is there a standard term for a dim. chord with a major 7th ?

[InWalkedBud]

i don't believe so, i think it would still be called a diminished chord, just with an altered note. the root position expression of the chord (1, b3, b5, 7) is a fairly common voicing in jazz, when you want the diminished chord to sound more out. you can do it with any inversion of the diminished chord, actually, by moving the top note up a whole step. not sure if that helps but got me thinkin...

[d halfnote]

I was wondering about "1/2 dim" [1 b3 b5 b7] & whether there was something similar.

[MuzikTeechur]

No, to my knowledge there is no common name for that chord (1 b3 b5 maj7) but it sounds funky.

It's like when you discover a comet: you get naming rights!

[kanker.]

I'd call it a diminished major 7, or use a slash chord like B/C

[Bobadohshe]

I've seen it. There is no standard per se, but I've seen it notated like:

 

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/123/l_122a2100841d4a0cb0f48de0a76b1d49.png

[Dave E]

Thad Jones's would voice the full diminished chord plus the top voice a fourth away for saxes (Bobadoche's above example with a b natural on the bottom). Essentially, it functions as an upper structure of an implied dominant. There's lots of ways you can go: E13(b9) or G13((b9) or Bb7(#9) or Db7(b9). The first three are vintage Thad.

[jarrell]

I've seen it. There is no standard per se, but I've seen it notated like:

 

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/123/l_122a2100841d4a0cb0f48de0a76b1d49.png

That is what I've seen as well. I think this makes more sense than saying C#/D, as it makes clear it really is a diminished chord with an added tone. If I saw C#/D, I would not automatically assume diminished. I think the difference is also that when seeing it written as diminished, I would feel free to use the root in inversions, whereas with the slash chord I would not.

[Bobadohshe]

Thad Jones's would voice the full diminished chord plus the top voice a fourth away for saxes (Bobadoche's above example with a b natural on the bottom). Essentially, it functions as an upper structure of an implied dominant. There's lots of ways you can go: E13(b9) or G13((b9) or Bb7(#9) or Db7(b9). The first three are vintage Thad.

 

Right on.

[Steve Nathan]

Here in Nashville, everyone calls that a "Half Diminished". Bobadohshe's example chord would be charted as D with a raised circle with a diagonal line through it (the circle).

 

Not to start another "What chord is this" thread, but yesterday on one of LeAnn Womack's tracks, the bridge started on C-9 followed by a chord with a G in the bass with F, Ab, B & Eb on top. Actually, the left hand played the low G and the F, and the right hand played the Ab, B, Eb and G above.

I charted this as F 1/2dim over G and then underneath it wrote:

"or G7 flat9 sharp5"

 

Either worked for me and no one scratched their head when it went by. It's only an unusual chord for a "Country" session, but it did have me wondering (once again) how the schooled among us would have labeled it.

And please, don't tell me to "write it out". It was a Country session. There's no Staff Paper in Country!

[yorgatron]

 

Not to start another "What chord is this" thread, but yesterday on one of LeAnn Womack's tracks, the bridge started on C-9 followed by a chord with a G in the bass with F, Ab, B & Eb on top. Actually, the left hand played the low G and the F, and the right hand played the Ab, B, Eb and G above.

 

I just went and played this chord.

are you sure you were playing a country session?

[Bobadohshe]

Here in Nashville, everyone calls that a "Half Diminished". Bobadohshe's example chord would be charted as D with a raised circle with a diagonal line through it (the circle).

 

Steve, I am thinking maybe you just glanced at the chord we were talking about but didn't see that it actually has a Major 7th? Because everywhere else in life I've encountered the 'half diminished' chord as a diminished triad with a minor seventh, and that's a pretty common chord, the same as a m7b5. Or do they really call that out, modern chord a plain old half diminished in Nashville??

 

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/116/l_5a00d4e61c224aa789bac6491355db18.png

[kanker.]

Not to start another "What chord is this" thread, but yesterday on one of LeAnn Womack's tracks, the bridge started on C-9 followed by a chord with a G in the bass with F, Ab, B & Eb on top. Actually, the left hand played the low G and the F, and the right hand played the Ab, B, Eb and G above.

I charted this as F 1/2dim over G and then underneath it wrote:

"or G7 flat9 sharp5"

 

Either worked for me and no one scratched their head when it went by. It's only an unusual chord for a "Country" session, but it did have me wondering (once again) how the schooled among us would have labeled it.

And please, don't tell me to "write it out". It was a Country session. There's no Staff Paper in Country!

I'd have called the Eb a b13 instead of a #5, but other wise, yeah, G7 b9 #13.

[JeffLearman]

I've seen it. There is no standard per se, but I've seen it notated like:

 

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/123/l_122a2100841d4a0cb0f48de0a76b1d49.png

That is what I've seen as well. I think this makes more sense than saying C#/D, as it makes clear it really is a diminished chord with an added tone. If I saw C#/D, I would not automatically assume diminished. I think the difference is also that when seeing it written as diminished, I would feel free to use the root in inversions, whereas with the slash chord I would not.

I think you meant B/C.

 

I was completely flummoxed by C#/C until I sat at my keyboard and took a look. It had never occurred to me (though it should be totally obvious) that Cdim could be called B7/C.

[Steve Nathan]

Steve, I am thinking maybe you just glanced at the chord we were talking about but didn't see that it actually has a Major 7th?

 

You're not only correct, you are a gentleman to correct me so gracefully. I did miss it with my casual glance. I saw the words half diminished in the OPs 2nd post and went downhill from there.

 

The actual chord in question would probably puzzle folks around here (probably never has shown up in a Country song as opposed to the one I asked about). It would depend on the key of the song, and surrounding progressions but in a vacuum I'd likely call it a C# over D.

[jarrell]

I've seen it. There is no standard per se, but I've seen it notated like:

 

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/123/l_122a2100841d4a0cb0f48de0a76b1d49.png

That is what I've seen as well. I think this makes more sense than saying C#/D, as it makes clear it really is a diminished chord with an added tone. If I saw C#/D, I would not automatically assume diminished. I think the difference is also that when seeing it written as diminished, I would feel free to use the root in inversions, whereas with the slash chord I would not.

I think you meant B/C.

 

I was completely flummoxed by C#/C until I sat at my keyboard and took a look. It had never occurred to me (though it should be totally obvious) that Cdim could be called B7/C.

 

B/C was the original example Kanker mentioned for notating as a slash chord, however I was referring to Bobadohshe's notated example, which would be C#/D.

 

One way to look at this is to take a diminished 7th chord (D F Ab B) and add a 9th (D F Ab B E). Now you have extracted a major triad (E major) from a diminished chord, and of course major triads make for juicy upper structure voicings. But even better, because diminished 7th chords are symmetrical (i.e. by inverting D F Ab B you do get 3 more diminished 7th chords with the same notes, with F Ab and B as the root), you can add a 9th with all of those. This gives you a choice of 4 added notes (E G Bb C#), and 4 major triads you can play as upper structures (E G Bb C#). If you take these 4 added notes (E G Bb C#), and add them to the diminished 7th chord (D F Ab B) you get the diminished scale, which of course has the 4 major chords in it.

 

The short version is when you have a diminished 7th chord, you have 4 notes you can add, and 4 major triads you can play in your right hand.

 

The beauty of harmony is there is more than one way to look at many things, and each way gives you different insights. Dave E mentioned treating these all as upper structures of dominant chords, and that gives you a whole other path to explore.

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

Steve, I am thinking maybe you just glanced at the chord we were talking about but didn't see that it actually has a Major 7th?

 

You're not only correct, you are a gentleman to correct me so gracefully. I did miss it with my casual glance. I saw the words half diminished in the OPs 2nd post and went downhill from there.

 

The actual chord in question would probably puzzle folks around here (probably never has shown up in a Country song as opposed to the one I asked about). It would depend on the key of the song, and surrounding progressions but in a vacuum I'd likely call it a C# over D.

 

Haha. The grace comes from the fact that I knew 100% that you knew what a half diminished chord was. I figured you'd have had to have misread it. I'm not looking to boldly contradict anyone around here just because.

[Bobadohshe]

I'd have called the Eb a b13 instead of a #5, but other wise, yeah, G7 b9 #13.

 

And there's another example of someone accidentally typing or reading something when I know he means something else!

 

G7 b9 b13

 

[kanker.]

I'd have called the Eb a b13 instead of a #5, but other wise, yeah, G7 b9 #13.

 

And there's another example of someone accidentally typing or reading something when I know he means something else!

 

G7 b9 b13

 

Exactly. Good catch

[d halfnote]

Thanks all !

FWIW, the voicing I'm using in context is, low to high, [1 b5 maj7 b3 but that still seeems diminished to me (rather than, say, a 5-1-3 triad with b9 in the bass.

Right ?

[kanker.]

I would probably look at that as a triad over a pedal, but what comes before and what comes after really determine the function of you ask me...

[d halfnote]

Well, this in a very Beefheartian (read: "out, somemwhere past Monk") context, so harmonic relationships are hard enough vertically, let alone sequentially.

 

The chord discussed here is (low to high) [D Ab Db F] which I'm taking as [1, b5, maj.7, b3].

 

Preceded by [C# F G C#(alternating with B, the seeming b7) E] which I'm taking as [1, 3, b5, 1/b7/1, #9]

& followed by [A E Ab C# G] which I'm taking as [1, 5, maj.7, 3, b7] but, hey that could be a screwy diminished chord, too ]...so you can see my dilemma as far as conventional definitions.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, elsewhere, after suggesting that "diminished chords are derived from stacks of major 7ths", someone posted this:

"The Desired Dissonance of the Diminished Chord, Part II

 

 

By Greg Fishman

 

Last months article (part 1) was designed to familiarize you with the strong emotional sound of the diminished chord. This month, well go deeper into the technical aspects of the chord.

 

INTERVALICALLY SPEAKING

 

The intervallic structure of the diminished chord is fascinating to me. One of my favorite sounds in music is the interval of a major 7th. The diminished chord actually contains four major 7th intervals stacked on top of each other, ascending in minor thirds.

 

Lets examine the B dim7 chord. From the Root to the major 7th, (B to A#) the distance is 11 half steps, or a major 7th interval. Next, if you measure from the 3rd to the 9th (D to C#), thats also a major 7th. The pattern continues throughout the chord: 5th to 11th (F to E), and 7th to 13th (Ab to G). Its the repeated use of this major 7th interval that gives this chord its dissonant character. To get a deeper understanding of intervals within the diminished chord, measure the distance from the root to each note in the chord, going all the way up to the flatted 13th."

 

Has anyone heard of that conceptualization before ?

It seems awfully roundabout.

 

I traced that to Greg Fishman Jazz Studios where two articles under the "Jazz Theory articles" await.

[kanker.]

Playing through that, I'd vote slash chord

[d halfnote]

Db/D ?

[kanker.]

Yeah Dd/D - it has more of a triad over a pedal sound to my ears

[Bobadohshe]

Db over D is one of my favorite chords! Listen to 'TALES OF A MAN' by TOTO. It's a wicked bit of David Paichism.

[d halfnote]

Not to chase this ball too much further but...

Yeah Dd/D - it has more of a triad over a pedal sound to my ears

..I'm a bit confused by "pedal" in this usage.

To me pedal tones are sustained rather than passing.

Did I sleep through that section ?

 

 

& is anyone familiar with that Fishman conception that derives diminished chords from major 7ths ?

[Steve Nathan]

The more I play this chord while noodling, the more I prefer

diminished maj7. The maj7th tends to sound to me like a momentary thing, soon to be on it's way one way or the other.

[kanker.]

I call it a pedal because it isn't really bi or polytonal as much as it is a voicing over a root.

[Jason Stanfield]

... what comes before and what comes after really determine the function of you ask me...

Agreed.

 

That was my biggest hurdle in college theory -- the context of the chord -- mainly because it wasn't introduced to us until we were still wrapping our heads around those pesky augmented sixth chords (common practice's mean-spirited "resolve this, smarty-pants" challenge).

 

(No, I take it back. My biggest hurdle in music theory was four semesters of intricate common practice theory being flung out the window by my 20th Century Theory prof.)