Notator Logic - A Realization About the Wrong Paradigm?

[Joe Muscara]

I've been trying to get my head around using the notation aspects of Logic Pro for a while now. What finally struck me today is that using the Score Editor is really a different thing than the normal, modern way we edit MIDI. In other words, if my goal is to make a printed score, I should probably start with the Score Editor in mind, not with MIDI loops, copies, regions, etc.

 

It could be argued that the Score Editor *should* work that way. Apple would have an amazing tool if they did. For instance, imagine if the Score Editor could interpret a looped region as a repeat and make the score appear with repeat marks accordingly? Or vice versa, where repeats in the score would make that region repeat? But, AFAICT, that's not how it works currently.

 

Am I finally getting the Score Editor, or am I still missing something?

 

*The thread title is a bit of a joke on my part, in case you were wondering.

[jarrell]

Re your joke: I'll never forget, back in 1988, recording a track in Notator Logic (on my Atari ST) and seeing the music notation appear on the screen *as I was playing* (OK, a 1/2 second later).

[Sven Golly]

*The thread title is a bit of a joke on my part, in case you were wondering.

 

All I know is that I immediately flashed back to the good old days.

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2702/4082237501_4bb108388c.jpg

 

(I still have my ST rig with Notator and Unitor interface... packed away, but every so often I'm tempted to break it out... )

[Joe Muscara]

I had the Atari 400, 800, 800XL, and others I accumulated when they dropped to almost free. They may still be in a box at Mom's.

 

I wanted the ST series, but also didn't "get" the GUI concept at all at the time. I remember one guy in my high school kept saying "they call it the Jackintosh, get it?"

 

It's taken me this long to finally get Logic for myself!

[timwat]

Joe - I gave up. Much as I tried to take advantage of the score editor in Logic, I had this "Finale" mentality from using the program for so many years (which in itself was more a "hate" than a "love / hate" relationship).

 

Just this month I downloaded Sibelius 5 First (the demo) and am SO pleasantly surprised I'm going to pull the trigger on it.

[BP3]

 

http://www.tinderarts.com/images/notator1.jpg

[Joe Muscara]

I'm trying to avoid buying Finale and use this first. I should be able to, right? Right???

 

 

 

(I wouldn't mind an "oldest Notator screen shot" thread, so long as it's your own and not from the 'net.)

[kanker.]

I have to admit that my Score Editor knowledge is not the greatest. I tend to live in the other MIDI editors and use Sibelius for notation. If I get some time, I'll poke around in the Score a little more and see what I can figure....

[frogmonkey]

As far as I know, repeat signs in the score editor don't get played by the sequencer, and loops don't show up in the score editor.

 

If you want to get your loops into the score editor, you have to convert them to real copies, which is under Regions>Loops>Convert To Real Copies.

 

I'm thinking I might get Sibelius soon myself if I can't sort out a couple of my own problems with Logic's score editor. Ever since I upgraded from 7 to 8, I haven't been able to nudge notes using key commands-- I just can't get it to work. I'm just not finding the flow when I want to whip something up quickly.

[Joe Muscara]

Thanks guys. Frogmonkey, I didn't realize that Real Copy option was there. That could come in handy.

 

Sucky that the Score Editor doesn't seem to cut it for many. If I can't get what I need from it, I'm going the Finale route. That's what my harpist friend uses (and I do his web site, so there's some interaction there when he sells scores), as well as the guy with whom I'm studying piano.

 

But first, I'll see if my idea works, which is creating tracks just for scores. I'm thinking I can even do the real sequencing as normal and copy that over to new tracks, make Real Copies, and merge them all into a single region per instrument. These songs aren't too complex so hopefully it will work out.

 

If you guys figure out anything let me know, and I'll report back with any findings as well.

[synthdogg]

I actually quite like Logic's Score editor. I've been using it for years. It's not Sibelius for sure, but it's not meant to be. For creating quick lead sheets or a string quartet or something, it's been very handy.

 

I definitely have had to create a "score" work version and think about it as a scoring tool rather than a DAW though, as I suspect people already have to do naturally with Finale or Sibelius. If I'm creating a score from a sequence I've already finished, I just save a separate version of the same song that will be my "score" version (so I can cut out verses and use repeats...etc.) Let us all know how it's going for you.

[Joe Muscara]

This is bizarre.

 

I opened a project that I have that has two instruments, soprano sax and piano. This project was created to make a lead sheet. I switched to Page View, and noticed the instrument was "Inst 1" instead of "Soprano Sax," so I double clicked on the instrument name intending to change it.

 

At that point, all the regions appeared in Page View, both for that instrument and the piano. There are repeat marks around the first eight bars, but I'm not sure why.

 

The only way I see to change the instrument name is in the mixer.

 

I need to RTFM and see if I can figure some of this out, but it's interesting if nothing else!

 

BTW, anyone have any suggestions for a lead sheet font, like the one used in The Real Book?

[frogmonkey]

Here's some more illogical score behavior. How the hell do you write syncopated 8th note triplets in 4/4 time?

 

I've tried using the quantize tool set to 1/12 note, but it still notates my note-rest-note triplet as dotted-8th-16th. Lame.

 

I managed to get *some* of them to notate correctly by setting the subdivision on the transport to 12. But now my further attempts are ruining the quantization of my straight 8ths.

 

The notes are actually triplets, as I played them that way, and I can see it in the "piano roll" editor. They just won't show up that way in the score editor.

[allan_evett]

I've been working with the Score Editor in Logic over the past year or so, slowly getting to understand its' particulars and quirks, little by little; Though I'm by no means well experienced with it yet, like synthdogg. Using it was prompted by my change in location: a weekly collaboration/arranging gig went 'long distance' when I moved to northern CO from the Chicago area. My collaborator uses "Print Music" (basically Finale 'lite'); that creates some rather 'interesting' interpretations when we fly MIDI files back and forth...

 

Kevin, It will be interesting to see your impressions of the Score Editor - especially with your Logic expertise (looking forward very much to the new edition of your book), and Sibelius experience. I've considered going the dedicated scoring program route, but want to see if Logic's Score editor can cover - without too many 'hoop jumps' - printing out basic lead sheets, charts, and decently legible manuscript copies. So far, I've used it more as a reference for my own writing/arranging, and the collaboration gig. Would be great if there were some direct, simple tutorials on the Score Editor.

[Mark Schmieder]

I don't know the Logic Score Editor (I've only seen some of their writeup on it), but if it is anywhere near as advanced as Quickscribe in Digital Performer 7.1, it will fill MOST people's needs for notation, covering chord charts, standard notation, I think maybe tablature (but I didn't check that out as I HATE tablature and get slowed down by it terribly), and aligning lyrics precisely to musical phrasing, as well as parts extraction (e.g. Alto Clef for viola).

 

What is missing from most, if not all, score editors in DAW programs, is the ability to add musical markings that are NOT directly supported by MIDI CC's (e.g. "con sordino", crescendos, etc.).

 

I sometimes find it faster to go to notation first and then work out a MIDI performance. And in that context, I am just as likely to do the notation quickly in my DAW as in a standalone notation editor. It depends often on how sophisticated the expression needs to be for a convincing mock-up.

 

If you are someone making your licing at composing, transcribing, arranging, etc., you probably need a standalone dedicated notation program for its richer palette of markings, parts extraction, fonts, and perhaps most importantly, import/export options that your clients or partners can use for the next stages of arranging or production of the score for use by performers and/or publishers.

[MonksDream]

Just this month I downloaded Sibelius 5 First (the demo) and am SO pleasantly surprised I'm going to pull the trigger on it.

I did the same thing over a year ago. You won't regret it! Beware though, it's a gateway drug to the full package! I pulled the trigger on that a few months ago. The good thing is that when you upgrade to the full version they'll give it to you at the Education Upgrade price, $199. It's actually cheaper to buy Sib First and upgrade than it is to buy Sib outright.

[timwat]

Funny you mention that, Monksdream. I ended up changing my mind and going for Sib 6 @ education pricing instead. The Sibelius workflow is so much easier than my experience with Finale, but the things I wanted to do to get everything sized and laid out...I couldn't do in Sib First.

 

Now that I'm using Sib 6, couldn't be happier...but there is so much to learn.

[MonksDream]

Indeed there is. The best tip I can pass on to anyone is to get away from the mouse, use a full keyboard with a number pad, and learn the key strokes. Between that and inputting the chords and chord symbols from your controller's kb you can get really quick. I use it to do charts for jazz bands with 2 or 3 horns. Alt-Click is my friend.

[timwat]

Since I've been using one of the Apple bluetooth keyboards (it's short - no number pad), I've been wondering how much faster entry would be. Maybe I need to go pick up one of those wired ones. Thanks for the tip!

[Joe Muscara]

Revisiting this thread since I just read a two-part article on Better Logic Scores online.

 

Part 1 - The Basics

Part 2 - Further Improvements

 

Part 1 confirms what synthdogg says about creating a separate Logic file for scores. It also has some good tips for getting the notation just right, even if that messes up the MIDI sequence (hence the separate file).