Hammond XK-3c VS. Nord for B-3 tones ?

[ITGITC]

I just gotta ask:

 

What is vibrato scanner zapping?

 

Ummmm, it sounds like fun.

[Jim Alfredson]

A lot of assumptions in this thread. Let's try to clear the air first so we all know what we're discussing.

 

1) Where are you located? This will determine the market value of a tonewheel. Since you're linking to Keyboard Exchange, I'm going to assume you're in the continental United States. If so, top dollar for an A100 in pretty much any part of the country is around $2500 to $3000. For that price, it should be in absolute immaculate physical and mechanical condition.

 

They can usually be had for less. MUCH less. The last A100 I bought (for a club) was $1500. The last one I personally sold went for $700. I've gotten them for free twice. I also helped facilitate the sale of one for $2500. So $7000 is ridiculous.

 

2) How much room do you have in your studio? A full-sized console tonewheel organ like the A, B, or C series takes up about 4 sq ft of space. That doesn't count the Leslie. Basically it's like having a medium size drumkit set up at all times.

 

3) Is dual vs. single manual (keyboard) important? The XK3c by itself is just one manual (keyboard). A real tonewheel B3 or C3 or A100 has two manuals and pedals. The XK3c can be expanded to two manuals and pedals, but you're adding more cost.

 

4) Are you planning on recording stuff where the organ will be front and center? If so that means you'll be dealing with actual organists rather than just keyboardists who play a smidgen of organ. They will want real drawbars, not the buttons of the Nord. They will also want two manuals and pedals.

 

5) Concerning recording with a real tonewheel vs a clonewheel: For the last four sessions I've done at a local studio which has a lovely 1957 C3 with 21E (like a 21H) Leslie, I used my XK3 (either the full XK System or just the XK3) through the studio's Leslie but more recently through my 3300. Why? Two reasons: The tone of the XK3 can be changed quickly and the bass is better. It is tighter and more defined. For one session where I was kicking bass, this was important. And also I was using the MIDI capabilities of the XK3 extensively on a couple sessions.

 

So to answer the question of whether I would want a real tonewheel or the XK3/XK3c at a studio? It would depend on the session and my role, but I would not be disappointed with either option and for certain applications I would lean towards the digital. I KNOW what the digital is going to sound like.

 

7) To get back to the original question, Nord or XK3c through a real Leslie... the winner is the XK3c, no question. You can tweak the tone to your heart's content and through a real Leslie it is as close to the real thing as you can get. In the mix you cannot tell the difference.

 

8) Finally, I'd like to mention that the price of the Hammond New B3mkII is aimed at churches, not the regular musician. Specifically churches in the south where the price of a mint tonewheel B3 usually tops $15k. Why would they buy a new digital one for that much more? One simple word: warranty.

[Meisenhower]

I just gotta ask:

 

What is vibrato scanner zapping?

 

Ummmm, it sounds like fun.

 

Fun? Not so much, but it has gotten easier over the years.

 

The Vibrato Scanner is the device inside the Hammond that provides the vibrato/chorusing when engaged.

 

Over time, zinc dentrites can build up inside the oily realm of the scanner and cause the vibrato or chorus to "motorboat" which sounds just like you would expect a motorboat engine to sound (choppy, exaggerated and not at all what a Hammond chorus or vibrato sounds like).

 

There are two ways to fix this.

 

1. Rebuild the scanner. Not a really difficult thing to do, but it's not my first choice to fix the problem.

 

Here's the process for rebuilding the scanner.

 

http://avintagesound.com/REBUILDYOURVIBRATOSCANNER.aspx

 

 

2. Apply some high voltage to the scanner leads or delay line wires and ZAP the zinc dentrites back to creation.

 

This isn't difficult, but doing it old school can be a little dangerous as written by a Hammond service bulletin. See item 4, "Quick Fix".

 

http://www.bentonelectronics.com/vibrato.html

 

This process was made much easier by Bob Schleicher's (of EIS in Oakland, CA) little creation called the "Mini Zapper" and you simply attach it to the line delay and "zap" the crap away with much lower voltages and a much safer device.

 

Either way, it's a small price to pay to get beautiful rich sounding chorusing from your Hammond.

[Meisenhower]

5) Concerning recording with a real tonewheel vs a clonewheel: For the last four sessions I've done at a local studio which has a lovely 1957 C3 with 21E (like a 21H) Leslie, I used my XK3 (either the full XK System or just the XK3) through the studio's Leslie but more recently through my 3300. Why? Two reasons: The tone of the XK3 can be changed quickly and the bass is better. It is tighter and more defined. For one session where I was kicking bass, this was important. And also I was using the MIDI capabilities of the XK3 extensively on a couple sessions.

 

Jim, I'm sure it also has nothing to do with you being a Hammond-Suzuki sponsored artist either, right?

 

Seriously, for a player that has an XK3-C pro rig, I can see the benefits of using it. It's predictable and you can tweak it. To most other Hammond players, who haven't had the benefit of logging some time with the Xk-3c, there is some learning curve to getting "the sound" you want out of it, and that means eating up studio time.

 

I don't think that an Xk-3c pro rig would be a bad choice, but then you're getting to be cost prohibitive according to the OP's budget target.

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

I became an endorsed artist AFTER I played the XK3/XK System. Twice. The firs time I played it for almost an hour and I didn't like it, though I really wanted to. The next day I came back and had them plug it into a real tube Leslie and that's what sold me on it.

 

I still pay a pretty penny for everything Hammond, I just get the dealer cost.

 

When organissimo recorded Groovadelphia, we did two takes of a song as a test; one with the XK System and one with the B3 through the same Leslie, with the same mics. Everyone agreed the XK System sounded better with only myself knowing which was which. My B3 isn't exactly a dog either; its a 1958 and sounds better than 90% of B3s I've played.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I have no financial connection with Hammond Suzuki - but I spent several decades working on musical electronics including many different model tonewheel Hammond, and many of the Hammond Suzuki replacements.

 

Key factors: the XK-3c system is the word predictable. I worked on MANY B and C series Hammonds - the amount of variation in the sound of two of the same year and same model has to be heard to be believed. In the early 1990's, about one out of 25 that I worked on REALLY sounded good - another 3 or 4 were good, a bunch were fair, and there were at least 8 or 10 dogs. Yes, it IS possible to take a dog and make it sound really good - with a fully equipped machine shop, expert mechanical and electronic techs, quite a bit of luck in being able to find new parts that one cannot make, and a huge amount of labor.

 

That factor alone was one of the reasons that, in the NC and Virginia coastal areas, a really prime B3 and 122 would bring $20,000 plus to a dealer selling it. The brand new Suzuki clone was physically almost identical, had the same "feel" and very close to the same sound - $5,000 more for a new instrument WITH warranty - the churches that really wanted the Hammond gospel sound bought them as fast as the dealer could stock them.

 

Especially without having someone who really knows how a Hammond tonewheel should feel and sound - the XK does make a lot of sense.

 

[Tone Taster]

How are these prices ?

http://vintagehammond.com/inventory.asp

http://denver.craigslist.org/atq/1534341878.html

 

I have been thinking this through, but I still want some portability for live jam sessions, too

 

So . . . . would it be sacrilegious to chop down a B2/C2/RT2 (with the mods someone suggested earlier) , remove the bass pedals, and just have the top w/the fold out legs ?

 

Most of the stuff we play or record is done with a bassist anyway, so we wouldn't have use for the pedals anyway

[mate stubb]

So . . . . would it be sacrilegious to chop down a B2/C2/RT2 (with the mods someone suggested earlier) , remove the bass pedals, and just have the top w/the fold out legs ?

 

Yes.

 

Not only is it sacreligious to destroy a B cabinet, but you will make a mess of it and destroy the organ electrically too unless you have skillz.

 

Destroy an A-102 cabinet, OTOH, and you have done humanity a service.

 

It's still gonna weigh 200 lbs.

[Jim Alfredson]

As I've stated on this forum before, there is absolutely NO reason to chop a tonewheel in this day and age. None. If you want portability, get the XK3c.

[HammondDave]

I own three B3's; a 1955 with two 21H leslies, a 1956 with 147 and 122 leslies, and a 1961 with two leslie 145's. I perform with a Hammond XK3c with the lower manual into a Speakeasy AMA into twin EV 360's. I also use a GEM RPX for my piano sounds that are triggered off of the lower manual. I must say that the sound of my performance rig is identical to some the best Hammonds I have played.

 

As I constantly manipulate the drawbars to shape the sound during songs, the Nord has always been a non-starter. But there are many players who stay at 888000000 all night long, and the Nord might be fine for them.

 

It all depends on what is more important for you. If an authentic Hammond sound plus Hammond player ergonomics are important, go with the XK3c. If weight is the morst important consideration, go with the Nord.

 

But if you are looking for a Hammond for a recording studio, go with either the XK3c or a real Hammond Console. It is asking too much for an artist to deal with the Nord draw-buttons when recording.

[Bridog6996]

How are these prices ?

http://vintagehammond.com/inventory.asp

http://denver.craigslist.org/atq/1534341878.html

 

The first one, not so much. I think you're generally going to pay a lot more from a dealer. You'll get a much better deal buying privately. Shipping is also a monetary concern, because they're extremely heavy. First line of attack is to continue to check area Craigslist sites within a radius of your choice and try Ebay (limit search to your area, so you can pick up rather than ship). You may have to play a bit of the waiting game for someone to put one up for sale at a reasonable price.

 

As for the second one, just be aware that the RT-2 isn't quite the "B3 experience." I know that at least all the models lower than 3 didn't have harmonic percussion, which is pretty important to the B3 sound.

 

If you want any real portability, though, a clonewheel is for you. A chopped hammond is still a heavy son of a bitch.

[Tone Taster]

Thanks guys - it's looking more & more like the XK3c is the ticket

 

I just don't see the double keyboard models anywhere for sale, just the single keyrack ???

 

EDIT:

NEVERMIND, just didn't know it was called "pro XK"

http://www.hammondorganworld.com/?siteid=153&itemcategory=28551&priorId=0&ProductId=18177

[Meisenhower]

How are these prices ?

http://vintagehammond.com/inventory.asp

http://denver.craigslist.org/atq/1534341878.html

 

I have been thinking this through, but I still want some portability for live jam sessions, too

 

So . . . . would it be sacrilegious to chop down a B2/C2/RT2 (with the mods someone suggested earlier) , remove the bass pedals, and just have the top w/the fold out legs ?

 

Most of the stuff we play or record is done with a bassist anyway, so we wouldn't have use for the pedals anyway

 

The Denver CL RT2 looks like a nice box and for $250 you can add a Trek II percussion and it will have 3 series sound.

 

That said, I'm in complete agreement with those here who say, if you want portability, buy an XK-3c. Chopping a vintage console is unnecessary and destroying a potentially beautiful instrument.

 

Buy the RT2, add the Trek and put it in your living room!!!

[Bridog6996]

Thanks guys - it's looking more & more like the XK3c is the ticket

 

I just don't see the double keyboard models anywhere for sale, just the single keyrack ???

 

EDIT:

NEVERMIND, just didn't know it was called "pro XK"

http://www.hammondorganworld.com/?siteid=153&itemcategory=28551&priorId=0&ProductId=18177

 

I don't know that you would need the "complete" system. The most important pieces for general use, the XK3c and the lower manual/cabinet will run about $4500. You still need a leslie, of course. No need for the special stand, pedals, and bench unless you plan on recording organ trios and such. If you have, or plan on having, that kind of organ-playing clientele at your studio, though, I would go back to thinking about going the vintage console route.

 

If it's me, I'd still look into a vintage console as a studio piece anyway. Then, if you decide you want something to bring out to jams, pick up an Electro.

 

What about the Korg BX3? I've never played one, so I can't comment on it, but it's got the double manuals and is significantly less expensive.

[Phred]

Excellent advice.

 

Jim, your B3 vs clonewheel advice is top notch.

 

I have to point out a small error with this point though

2)... A full-sized console tonewheel organ like the A, B, or C series takes up about 4 sq ft of space.

 

4 square feet of space is hardly enough room to stand in, and a B3 would definately not fit in it. What I believe that Jim meant to say was 4x4 (or thereabouts...) which is actually 16 square feet of space.

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

Yep, that's what I was trying to say. Thank you!

 

One other point I forgot to make is that we don't know what kind of studio the OP has. The term "studio" is used for just about any kind of recording space these days. It could be anything from a professional facility to a basement home setup (like me!) where space is at a premium and only he and his bandmates are going to use.

[frenzy1971]

There is another option if you are willing to give on the range. If you want a good Hammond sound here's what I did and gigged for years- (B3 purists scroll on down).

I bought an M3 for 300 bucks from an elderly couple, we bought a metal bread cart (the rolly thingy they stack plastic bread trays on) from a grocery store and cut out a piece of plywood to cover the metal cart with cut in handles (looked like a rolling cutting board). We bolted it to the cart, set the baby b on the cart and bolted the bottom to the wood. I used a Hughes and Kettner tube rotosphere and D/I'd the whole thing to the PA. Sounded great, was still heavy but easily moveable, just HAVE to tape wheel stops before gigs, or you could kill some dancing drunk dude. Depends on what kind of music you play. In a studio no one will want to lose the lower octave, but if you want an easy mover in a console the spinets deserve a glance for weight and price.

[dazzjazz]

If you're going to buy vintage, get a pro player to help you pick it. If you buy a dog, clients won't dig it and won't get the results they're after. I did a gig on a dog of a B3 recently and it ruined my night...

 

I've been playing my Nord C1 through my 1962 Leslie 145 and it sounds flippin' AMAZING - and my beautiful A100 and another Leslie is sitting right there.

 

 

[CEB]

I will never carry my B3 to another gig. (I guess I should not say never in case my clones blow up plus I want to sell my backup clone.)

 

I did it in in the 70's and 80's cause we HAD to. There were times carrying a real organ REALLY SUCKED.

 

I have to admit. I recently saw Kansas and Walsh played the organ parts on a Kurzweil. I won't say it sucked but it did lick a little. Maybe it was just a Jedi mind trick of seeing it was a Kurzweil.

[LX88]

I would cast my vote for the Nord C1 or C2 if I had to decide. I would prefer the portability and I think the sound is more convincing based on what I want to hear.

 

We have been through the chorus vibrato issue before here on this forum...I personally would go with the Nord based on that.

 

As I recall, Keyboard Magazine also expressed that they thought that the Nord was the best dual manual option in the May issue, and that the Numa was the best single manual. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on an SK series Hammond but between the XK3C and the Nord C2 I would take the Nord.

 

 

[keyClicker]

If I could buy any of them, I would go Suzuki.

[ABECK]

I recently saw Kansas and Walsh played the organ parts on a Kurzweil.

 

I remember a Kansas concert I saw on TV a few years ago and he had what looked like a K2000 controlling an e-MU B3 module. It didn't sound horrible, but you are right, there definitely was a disconnect between what I was seeing and hearing.

[Outkaster]

I would like to cast my vote for the Nord C1 or C2 if I had to decide. I would prefer the portability and I think the sound is more convincing based on what I want to hear.

 

We have been through the chorus vibrato issue before here on this forum...I personally would go with the Nord based on that.

 

 

Really. I just saw a guy with a C-2 and it sucked in the high register and sounded processed. I was underwhelmed.

[Skinny]

First of all....

 

Second...this thread is over a year-and-a-half old, WTF. I would hope the OP would have made his decision by now.

[LX88]

I think the C2 might sound processed if the leslie sim was on , otherwise I think it sounds pretty good - once again , through the right system.

 

It's pretty hard to express an opinion on this forum when it comes to die hard Hammond Suzuki guys. I would like see what would happen if I said that Hammond stuff sucks.

 

 

 

 

[keyClicker]

It's pretty hard to express an opinion on this forum when it comes to die hard Hammond Suzuki guys. I would like see what would happen if I said that Hammond stuff sucks.

 

Yes!

And It's pretty hard for them to express an opinion on this forum when it comes to die hard Hammond Suzuki Haters as well!

 

[DanL]

It's very similar to the Harley vs Metric debates on the bike forums. Harley is great! Harley sucks! Harley is the classic- everyone else are imitators! Harly sucks- they still air cool and just introduced fuel injection, metrics have been doing that for years! Buy American- Buy Harley! Look, all these Harley parts say made in China!! and so on...

[Jr. Deluxe]

It's very similar to the Harley vs Metric debates on the bike forums. Harley is great! Harley sucks! Harley is the classic- everyone else are imitators! Harly sucks- they still air cool and just introduced fuel injection, metrics have been doing that for years! Buy American- Buy Harley! Look, all these Harley parts say made in China!! and so on...

 

Coke or Pepsi

Bud or Coors

Page or Blackmore

Elephant or Donkey

Fender or Gibson

 

Now its Ham/Suz or any other clone

 

These are lifes questions that keep the discussion forums alive.

[ABECK]

In high school, we had Chevy guys and we had Ford guys. And never the twain shall meet.

[Devnor]

The XK-3c *feels* like a Hammond. The interface is intuitive, you can choose from several tonewheel profiles (leaky old road organ, "brand new" b-3, and many others, plus a real tube overdrive (if you like dirty)...

The XK-3c is, in my opinion, $1000 better than the Nord. We compared and ended up with the Hammond.

 

My experience as well. Its big & heavy but a truely lovely instrument that inspires me each time I play it.