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Hammond XK-3c VS. Nord for B-3 tones ?


Tone Taster

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Through a Leslie of course

 

Is the Xk-3c $1000 more realistic TONEWISE/VALUEWISE than the latest Nords ?

 

No.

 

But it says HAMMOND on the back of it... and it's not RED. :laugh:

 

 

 

 

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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For B3 tones and nothing else, through a Leslie, the XK-3c wins. Authentic user interface, great musical instrument. The Nord is the featherweight champ when you need much more than just B3 tones in your vintage board.

 

Regards,

Eric

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Since you weren't specific on which Nord you're comparing, I have to assume you're talking about either an Electro 2 or Electro 3 (for the price) as the C2 is more expensive than the XK-3c.

 

I have both the XK-3 (not the c) and a Nord Electro 2 and I have to say, the Nord is damn good at being a Hammond. Is it better than the XK3 on the basis of Hammond sounds alone? No, but it is pretty damn close.

 

The price to value ratio of the Nord (NE2/NE3) vs the Hammond makes the Nord a clear winner, since the Nord has other sounds that are equally impressive.

 

The downsides to the Nord over the XK-3c:

 

1. The dreaded drawbuttons vs. drawbars. If you're a dyed in the wool Hammond player, this is often a deal breaker. I consider myself a Hammond guy (I own 5, so I think that qualifies me), but I'm as likely to take the Nord out to gigs as the XK3, especially if I know I'm going to need Rhodes or Clav sounds (and I don't take my Motif ES out).

 

2. The Nord has no Leslie connection (unless you're looking at a C1 or C2 organ), and then you're forced to use a preamp/controller if you're going to use a Leslie.

 

3. The leslie sim was better on the Nord (IMHO) than the XK3, however the XK3c has made significant improvements in that area.

 

If you're going to be doing Hammond stuff and nothing else, buy the Hammond.

 

If you already have all the other sounds that the Nord does covered, buy the Hammond.

 

If you really want a Hammond, then buy the Hammond. As good as Nord's (or any of the other clonewheels) are, it's still a copy of a Hammond.

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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Not being an expert on this subject, I'll just say this:

Drawbars or drawbuttons for you?

 

I'm not a keyboardist and am looking into this for recording/studio purposes for guests - so I am less of an expert than you !

 

All, thanks for the reply

 

Yes, i want no half-stepping on the B3 tone and would rather spend the money, but want to make sure if the new hammond is really $1000 better AT B-3 TONES

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If you really want a Hammond, then buy the Hammond. As good as Nord's (or any of the other clonewheels) are, it's still a copy of a Hammond.

 

Here's where I step in and point out that the Hammond is not a real Hammond either. Yeah it has the name stencilled on it, but it's a clone like any other.

 

Buy it because you think it sounds great, or because you like the ergonomics. Not because it has the same name as a legendary instrument.

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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Here's where I step in and point out that the Hammond is not a real Hammond either. Yeah it has the name stencilled on it, but it's a clone like any other.

 

Buy it because you think it sounds great, or because you like the ergonomics. Not because it has the same name as a legendary instrument.

 

I think you're splitting hairs, as in the realm of "branding", it is a Hammond. It's a Hammond as far as any new "Hammond" can be. It's licensed and authorized to use the name, so it's a Hammond.

 

Is it a Hammond in the same sense as a vintage "console" Hammond, no. I don't think anyone here believes that the Hammond Organ Company and Hammond-Suzuki USA are the same company, however what do you say to someone who purchases a NEW Hammond B3 Mk2 for $27,000 (MSRP)? Is it any less a Hammond, because it's new?

 

It certainly wouldn't be my particular cup of tea, but it's still a Hammond (a Hammond of today, but a Hammond none the less).

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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Don't forget the much cheaper XK-1, which might suit your purposes fine. I am extremely happy with my (very recent) purchase of one. It sits in a mix with no effort, which says a lot about authenticity right there.

Eugenio Upright, 60th P-Bass, Geddy Lee J-Bass, Hofner HCT-500/7, Yamaha BBP35, Viking Bari

Select Strat, Select Tele, Am Pro JM, LP 57 Gold, G5422DC-12, T486, ES295, PM2, EXL1

XK1c, Voyager, Prophet XL

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I don't think anyone here believes that the Hammond Organ Company and Hammond-Suzuki USA are the same company
Posts from many here would indicate otherwise.

 

I'm not a keyboardist and am looking into this for recording/studio purposes for guests
More than likely, your answer is here. Buy the XK3c. If you go to a "real" studio, you're going to find an acoustic piano, real electric pianos, and a vintage tonewheel Hammond. Most players would rather play organ on a board with drawbars and the rest of the classic interface than the Electro's approximation of same.

 

The Electro is a great board, I own two, but I'd be hesitant to put it in front of a player for a recording session unless I knew the player was okay and comfortable with it.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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I'm not a keyboardist and am looking into this for recording/studio purposes for guests - so I am less of an expert than you !

 

All, thanks for the reply

 

Yes, i want no half-stepping on the B3 tone and would rather spend the money, but want to make sure if the new hammond is really $1000 better AT B-3 TONES

A recording studio Hammond? That's a no brainer.

 

If you're looking to install this in a recording studio, why not simply buy a vintage console Hammond. You don't have to spend big bucks and buy a B3. For a less than half of the cost of an original B3, you can buy an A100, RT3 or C3.

 

For even much less, you can buy a C2 or B2 or RT2 (and add percussion for $250 to upgrade to 3 series specs). I just did this to my recent C2 purchase (1954 C2 and Leslie 142 for $1000, plus $242 for the Trek II percussion), and this rig sounds as good (maybe even better) than my 57 B3.

 

$1,242 for a pristine vintage Hammond with percussion and a gorgeous Leslie, let's see Hammond Suzuki or Nord beat that!

 

Now you have authentic Tonewheel Hammond sound, not authentic clonewheel imitation, even if its a "Hammond owned brand" clonewheel, its still an imitation of the its former self.

 

Unless MIDI is a consideration, that is the only way I'd go.

 

 

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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I'd cover it with a Nord C1 or newer C2. When I compare it to my B-3/122 setup, it's thisclose soundwise.....pretty much like all clonewheels. Since it's a studio, there's no need for instantaneous drawbar wizzardry, so the buttons shouldn't be an issue. Of course, if money isn't any object, get the real deal and spring for a tonewheel model......then there won't be a need for this thread :wave:

 

Jake

1967 B-3 w/(2) 122's, Nord C1w/Leslie 2101 top, Nord PedalKeys 27, Nord Electro 4D, IK B3X, QSC K12.2, Yamaha reface YC+CS+CP

 

"It needs a Hammond"

 

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The XK-3c *feels* like a Hammond. The interface is intuitive, you can choose from several tonewheel profiles (leaky old road organ, "brand new" b-3, and many others, plus a real tube overdrive (if you like dirty)...

The XK-3c is, in my opinion, $1000 better than the Nord. We compared and ended up with the Hammond.

Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine.

 

HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama.

 

 

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Re: "Drawbars or buttons?" To me, this is so important.

 

I've owned three Hammonds and two Leslies, and still have one Hammond. Over two years ago, I bought a Nord, and have been telling myself that drawbars really don't matter. Well, even though I did not touch an organ for over 15 years, in my early years it was Hammond--I ate, lived and slept with a Hammond.

 

So now, when I learn a song, I play with the Nord's buttons and switches until I get the sound and setup I want, and then memorize (and name) the sound--the patch. But when I'm jamming, etc., I find myself intuitively wanting to reach for drawbars, and the buttons are still frustrating, after all this time and familiarity. I have to "think" what the buttons are doing, whereas I just moved the drawbars--there was more of an intuitive connection. Sure, I can get it to sound close, but it takes time. For me, playing the Nord engenders a "Love / Hate Relationship." I bought it for the light-weight, and for the "all-in-one" package. It is a constant struggle for me. It takes work to get the instrument to produce what I want.

 

Before I bought the Nord, I tried an XK-3 and returned it because I was not happy with it-the Leslie sim was not at all good, in my estimation. The Nord had a great Leslie sim. It was an all-in-one. I have been told by a real expert that if you take the time to tweak the XK-3, you can get it to sound just like a B-3 (I've heard him play his XK-3, and it sounds just like a B-3, but he really had to tweak to get that sound.) Your clients don't want to tweak--they want to step up and play. So, get the real thing for your studio!

 

Note, however that real (vintage) Hammonds all sound a bit different. If you're on a budget, I'd put my money on the XK-3c--it has many improvements over the XK-3, and stores easily. It's not an all-in-one, but "all-in-one's" NEVER nail it (for a recording) in my mind. You want the real thing.

 

In a nutshell, after all this time on a Nord, I want my "Hammond feel" back. With the Hammond, I didn't have to think about how to get the sound I wanted. I just did it.

 

 

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what do you say to someone who purchases a NEW Hammond B3 Mk2 for $27,000 (MSRP)?

I guess I would say, "Are you INSANE?" :D

 

 

Since it's a studio, there's no need for instantaneous drawbar wizzardry

So if I use drawbars to sculpt my sound in real time when playing live, I don't need to do that in the studio? :rolleyes:

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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Forget the clonewheels, man. You shouldn't have any trouble getting your hands on a vintage B3 or similar (A or C series) in good condition on a $2,500 to $3,000 budget, which is around the same ballpark as the XK3. If studio use is your intention and you want the most authentic sound, that's it right there.

 

The only advantage of a clonewheel is that they don't weigh a ton. The Electro weighs 20 pounds. Much better schlepping around a 400+ pound behemoth (not counting the leslie) from gig to gig. That's well worth a little sacrifice in tone. If you know you don't gotta move it, absolutely get the real thing.

 

 

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If you know you don't gotta move it, absolutely get the real thing.

 

+1. I've had a NE2 and a C1, great gigging axes indeed, but if you want to record it, a real console Hammond with a Leslie is the way to go.

 

Don't forget that big parts of the different Hammond sounds throughout the years came from the recording - the settings, the mics, angles, distances, room material, mic leakage and more. With a Leslie, you can get any sound you want. I usually record with 4 mics; two on the horn facing each other at 180 degrees (usually SM57's), a big condenser on the 'bass' rotor (which is where a lot of the action happens) and another mic 3-5 feet away from the Leslie placed in between the bass and treble rotors for an airy mono sound.

 

I recently bought a Speakeasy 122 AMA, and it's the biggest improvement in Hammond sound I can think of. It sounds pretty much identical to my old 145 - you can get that overdriven Leslie amp sound with almost any transistor Leslie.

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..."I'm not a keyboardist and am looking into this for recording/studio purposes for guests"...

 

..."i want no half-stepping on the B3 tone and would rather spend the money"...

 

The MAIN reason 'clonewheels' exist is because of their portability.

 

If I went into a studio which had the option of a real Hammond B3/C3/A100 c/w Leslie, or ANY 'clone'

 

(Hammond / Nord / Korg / Roland etc) - I'd pick the real original every time.

 

If portability is not an issue then, (as has been pointed out) if you look wisely, you could acquire

 

the 'real deal' for the same, or even less, $$$ than an imitation - whatever the name printed on it.

 

John.

 

some stuff on myspace

 

Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7

Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp.

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"...studio purposes for guests"? I admire your notion of hospitality. Seriously, like meisenhower I have an XK3 and electro 2 for gigging. I have a 1959 C3 at home. Guess which one gets played most around the house when I could easily use any one of the three? For the budget and use you are talking about, I agree empahtically with the suggestion that you find a vintage Hammond. Your guests will bless your name.

 

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"...studio purposes for guests"? I admire your notion of hospitality.

 

+1

 

What's a good time for us to stop in?

 

We'll bring beer.

 

 

aka âmisterdregsâ

 

Nord Electro 5D 73

Yamaha P105

Kurzweil PC3LE7

Motion Sound KP200S

Schimmel 6-10LE

QSC CP-12

Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs

Rolls PM55P

 

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"...studio purposes for guests"? I admire your notion of hospitality.

 

+1

 

What's a good time for us to stop in?

 

We'll bring beer.

 

 

Not so hasty..... we don't know yet what the decision is!

 

I'd be interested to know, tho' - :idea: ?

John.

 

some stuff on myspace

 

Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7

Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp.

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For your studio, forget the clones. Get a nice A-100 or C-3, and a 142 or 145...the "shorty" cabinets are perfectly fine for recording, and can often be found for a bit less than a 122/147/251. Heck keep an eye out for the 245...they're a 145 in a butt-ugly "Decorator" cabinet. From the rear, they look no different from a 145. From the front, they're positively hideous. But microphones can't tell. :) Your clients will kiss your feet and might even buy you expensive whisky. ;)

 

Happy hunting!

---

Todd A. Phipps

"...no, I'm not a Hammondoholic...I can stop anytime..."

http://www.facebook.com/b3nut ** http://www.blueolives.com

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..."I'm not a keyboardist and am looking into this for recording/studio purposes for guests"...

 

..."i want no half-stepping on the B3 tone and would rather spend the money"...

 

The MAIN reason 'clonewheels' exist is because of their portability.

 

If I went into a studio which had the option of a real Hammond B3/C3/A100 c/w Leslie, or ANY 'clone'

 

(Hammond / Nord / Korg / Roland etc) - I'd pick the real original every time.

I can't agree with that. IF it's a well maintained instrument, then yeah, I'd more than likely take the tonewheel, but if it's not (and I've been in plenty of studios with crap Hammonds) I'd take the clonewheel.

 

The question is, how much money would you be making off the organ. If it's enough to play to maintain the thing when need be, then chase a tonewheel organ. If this is a true professional studio, then a tonewheel would almost be a must. If it's not, then an XK-1 or XK-3c, perhaps even the XK-3c with a lower manual, would be much better options.

A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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If you're in a recording studio, I would think that portability or movability (is that a word?) is still an issue. Some people prefer to isolate the instruments (especially the leslie) while others want to record together as a big group.

 

In the studio we're going to use, they have a real B3 and leslie on rollers that they store in a separate room and then they just roll it out as needed. Similarly, you could just buy an xk3c (that wouldn't need rollers) and some kind of leslie (on rollers/casters).

 

Another benefit to getting a clone instead of a vintage instrument would be that it would be relatively "tech free" where it wouldn't need tuneups, etc.

 

 

 

www.brianho.net

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/brianho

www.youtube.com/brianhojazz

 

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Hows this ?

http://www.keyboardexchange.com/inventory.html#custom

 

Last video

 

Price right ?

 

They're seriously drinking their own Koolaid with those prices. Maybe they're selling them to Asia, but no where in the USA will those prices fiy!!

 

$6,950 for an A-102 with scratches? There isn't ONE competitively priced box on their entire inventory list.

 

No thanks!

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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If you're a top-notch studio, find a good original B3 or similar and pay a good tech to maintain. If something less than top-notch, go with a XK-3c, maybe even save more $$ and get a XK-1 - should be able to get a new one for about $1400 - and itat least has one set of drawbars.

 

If you are getting guys that are super picky about 'their tone', you'll likely still have problems with the old B3's or similar ones, because each one has it's own 'tones' and 'personalities', so you can't win all the time anyway.

Yamaha C2, Yamaha MODX7, Hammond SK1, Hammond XK-5 Heritage Pro System, Korg Kronos 2 61, Yamaha CP4, Kurzweil PC4-7, Nord Stage 3 73, Nord Wave 2, QSC 8.2, Motion Sound KP 210S,  Key Largo, etc…yeah I have too much…

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With all the talk about "maintenance" on Hammonds, for a studio rig is kind of silly.

 

If the box is in good shape to begin with (or even if it needed a little work, preamp rebuild, up/down stop felts, etc), the on going "maintenance" on a vintage console is pretty simple and relatively inexpensive over the life of the instrument.

 

I do much of the routine maintenance (oiling, vibrato scanner zapping, and the odd component change out) myself, and usually have my tech come in and give them a once over (whether they need it or not) annually or semi-annually.

 

I wouldn't exactly call a vintage Hammond a "slave to maintenance" or anything even close to it.

 

I still think in a studio setting, a basically maintained console Hammond and Leslie will be more attractive to clients than a clonewheel. If moving from room to room is an issue, casters are inexpensive and two flat furniture dolly's are only a little more expensive. If you really want to do it right, get Roll-or-Kari's for $400 and you're done.

 

 

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
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