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Women Musicians


J. Dan

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Side bar: I'm trying to develop a short list of famous/semi-famous female keyboard players that are/were not primarily lead vocalists.

 

Debbie Shair - Heart

Linda McCartney - Wings

Christine McVie - Fleetwood Mac

Kate Pierson - B-52's

Lisa Coleman - Prince & the Revolution

 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Any others?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."

- George Bernard Shaw

 

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With all due respect, there is no point in listing females who play piano and/or KBs. We know they exist as with any profession. The numbers are just low.

 

Regardless how many names show up, the question will remain why there aren't more women musos on stage. We just don't see as many after piano lessons, conservatory, Julliard, Berklee, etc. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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With all due respect, there is no point in listing females who play piano and/or KBs. We know they exist as with any profession. The numbers are just low.

 

Regardless how many names show up, the question will remain why there aren't more women musos on stage. We just don't see as many after piano lessons, conservatory, Julliard, Berklee, etc. :cool:

 

 

Maybe boogie woogie and blues queen pioneers like Katie just wanted to wave their dicks around too.

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As a woman, I'd guess coming home at 3 am every morning plays a big factor in it (keeps me from joining a band - well that and my only beginner-intermediate keyboard skills).

 

Plus I think many woman tend be to be more cautious. Being a musician is a financial risk isn't it? Think many women would choose a mediocre high paying day job over risking it all for a shot at fame and glory. I think the more risky, outgoing women (the type that would actually become musicians) tend to choose singing over playing keyboard that's why you see more female singers than keyboards in a band.

 

 

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It could be as simple as role models - the stereotypical role model for a woman in music, especially popular and jazz, is as a singer. Many woman keyboard players - Tori, Vanessa, Norah, Gaga - are probably more well known as vocalists. Also, pop music is about much more than musical ability - looks, attitude, etc., whereas at least in classical it is primarily about ability (and marketing, always).

 

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As long as we're discussing female pianists, does anyone remember Ellie Frankel from The Mike Douglas Show? She was a monster player and her name never gets mentioned.

 

This added ... while Googling Ellie Frankel I came across a rather long but interesting behind the scenes account of The Mike Douglas Show written by Joe Harnell who also played that show. It's worth your time ... http://www2.xlibris.com/book_excerpt.asp?bookid=11862

Dave, thanks for the link - that was a very interesting read, in fact, I just bought the book. One of several interesting points - transposing down for the last chorus of Over the Rainbow for Judy Garland - on live TV, while also conducting the band - think about that. Not just figure out a good modulation for going down, not up (OK, ii V in new key), but communicate silently to rest of band...

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So, this begs the question of why female artists aren't demanding a talented band consisting of of their gender.

 

I don't really like this line of thought, because it denies people work based upon some other factor than their abilities to do the job in question. I've fought against discrimination all my life, been beaten up and hauled off to jail for standing up.

 

Now, I also believe that it's your band, you hire who you want to hire. But I would hope that an artist of any caliber would hire their musical director and free the director to hire the appropriate players, regardless of race, gender, or religious affiliation.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Maybe it's a West Coast thing but there are a lot of female jazz players in and around Vancouver. Diana Krall and Renee Rosnes are from here. On the local scene Lisa Cay Miller, Sharon Minemoto, Amanda Tosoff, and Cat Toren all play wicked piano/KB. Jodi Proznick is an upright bassist you've got to hear to believe. I also know many women drummers, horn players, and guitarists here who play their asses off. And that's before we start to count the singers who accompany themselves and/or double on various instruments. And they ALL schlep their own gear. :)

 

They are still under-represented, I'll admit. I guess-timate 15 - 20% of the muso community is female. However there are way more women playing out than there used to be, particularly among the younger players, and that can only be a good thing.

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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A number of you have hit on a point maybe worth discussing in some more detail: Playing from sheet music and/or in a more structured setting vs by ear and improv. Just in my own family, I have 2 sisters who took piano lessons and play very well. In fact, my closest sister can probably play much better than me, IF she's sitting in front of the sheet music. Yet my brother and I both joined bands. My oldest sister went the Choir route at church.

 

Even the two female vocalists I've played with know how to play keyboards, but I've never seen them do it. In fact, when discussing songs in our current band, if there's a Sax solo and I don't want to have to sequence a song just to have the keys going during the solo, I've asked our singer if she could take over the part while I solo - she says sure. We haven't done it yet, but if she's good enough to do it, confident enough to get on stage and be a lead singer, why not keys? Side note, she also playes acoustic guitar - and does a side duo playing acoustic and singing. I'd say probably the most common instrument I seen females play in pop/rock music live would be acoustic guitar. Agreed?

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Maybe it's a West Coast thing but there are a lot of female jazz players....

 

I think that it has been said that there are plenty of great women players. But the point is well-taken... given that so many females study piano in their youth compared to males, it is odd that males tend to outnumber females in the performance/recording situation.

 

I don't think that it is so much a gender thing as a 'tracking' thing. Because the women players with whom I have worked that grew up hanging out with other players and jamming with other players are as good as anyone else that jams, those that studied in a more classical setting are equally lost as male classical players with no jam experience when faced with the idea of improvising. There is no evidence that the observation, which is valid, has it's basis in the difference in gender. I suspect it to be a difference in expectation and opportunity.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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So, this begs the question of why female artists aren't demanding a talented band consisting of of their gender.

 

I don't really like this line of thought, because it denies people work based upon some other factor than their abilities to do the job in question. I've fought against discrimination all my life, been beaten up and hauled off to jail for standing up.

 

Now, I also believe that it's your band, you hire who you want to hire. But I would hope that an artist of any caliber would hire their musical director and free the director to hire the appropriate players, regardless of race, gender, or religious affiliation.

My line of thinking isn't intended to be discriminatory. Of course, I'll keep the dialog non-political. ;)

 

Considering every aspect of the music industry is male-dominated, I don't think a rise in all-female bands would upset the balance. Those displaced dudes could go across the street, find a singer and set up shop.

 

OTOH, I doubt the male managers handling female artists have an incentive to go out of their way in interviewing qualified females to be MDs, musos, sound engineers, etc. Instead, they rely on the same network from one act to the next.

 

Your point is well taken that folks should be hired based on their skills and abilities. In professional football, there is the Rooney Rule which obligates teams to interview at least one minority candidate. In so many other areas, we still have a long way to go in that regard. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Some more good points regarding discrimination. I made the point earlier that I would have gladly filled spots with females if any were avaiable. So in my mind, that's not discrimination, it's lack of available candidates. However, I wasn't considering where I look for candidates. Most of the musicians I know are men, most of my friends are men, so naturally, the networking process may tend to exclude women unless I'm specifically searching for one. But by the same token, the online musician classifieds, and classified ads in the local paper can be answered by anybody - yet they still get answered by males. So while I think you have some very valid points regarding discrimination, I don't think that it is an issue in terms of musicians at the level I am speaking. Maybe when you get more into MD roles and stuff like that - I don't know. But really, to have opportunities at higher levels, there has to be a pool to pick from in the trenches, so to speak.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Some more good points regarding discrimination. I made the point earlier that I would have gladly filled spots with females if any were avaiable. So in my mind, that's not discrimination, it's lack of available candidates. However, I wasn't considering where I look for candidates. Most of the musicians I know are men, most of my friends are men, so naturally, the networking process may tend to exclude women unless I'm specifically searching for one. But by the same token, the online musician classifieds, and classified ads in the local paper can be answered by anybody - yet they still get answered by males. So while I think you have some very valid points regarding discrimination, I don't think that it is an issue in terms of musicians at the level I am speaking. Maybe when you get more into MD roles and stuff like that - I don't know. But really, to have opportunities at higher levels, there has to be a pool to pick from in the trenches, so to speak.

No fault of your own. But, that is the end result. When some folks believe an avenue is off-limits and/or dominated by a particular group, they stop trying to break into it.

 

[Considering every aspect of the music industry is male-dominated,

Classical isnt.

D*mn, I apologize for not using the obligatory "most". :rolleyes::laugh:

 

Still, while Classical music consists of many female musos, I wonder if their roles extend beyond the pit i.e. conductor, lighting, sound engineer, tour manager, etc.

 

The best way to know there is an imbalance in anything is to start pointing out the exceptions. ;):cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I don't think that it is so much a gender thing as a 'tracking' thing. Because the women players with whom I have worked that grew up hanging out with other players and jamming with other players are as good as anyone else that jams, those that studied in a more classical setting are equally lost as male classical players with no jam experience when faced with the idea of improvising. There is no evidence that the observation, which is valid, has it's basis in the difference in gender. I suspect it to be a difference in expectation and opportunity.

On that point I think you're correct, Bill. I also suspect that "difference in expectation and opportunity" plays a role in how many women musicians make the effort and take the risks, both financial and lifestyle, to play out.

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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simply put: because they don't have the need to wave their dicks around.

 

Nailed it. :thu:

 

Now, although I probably would have worded it a little differently, I have to agree with Bill@Welcome Home Studios.

 

And those who know me know that I'm not one to boast, but with all that waving around I did in my youth, I had no hands left to play keys... (my waving takes two, don'tchaknow?) :laugh:

 

Yeah. I said it.

 

I wasn't going to but...

 

Bill@Welcome Home Studios

 

made me do it. :evil:

 

:snax:

 

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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[Considering every aspect of the music industry is male-dominated,

Classical isnt.

 

I haven't counted heads, but the PSO has a very large female contingent, including some first chairs.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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.....Regardless how many names show up, the question will remain why there aren't more women musos on stage.....

Ive done some research with regard to occupational stereotypes or job sextypes, but its been a while. Basically, IIRC, a job is perceived as a male job or a female job on the basis of two factors:

 

1. The proportion/percentage of male vs. female job incumbents. To illustrate, there are far more male coal miners than female coal miners, there is a larger proportion of female versus male kindergarten teachers, etc.

 

2. The extent to which the job involves traditionally stereotypical masculine or feminine attributes. Jobs rated as having elevated levels of traditionally feminine attributes (e.g., nurturance) were found to have a greater percentage of female incumbents; jobs rated as having elevated levels of traditionally masculine attributes (e.g., aggressiveness) were found to have a greater percentage of male incumbents. Jobs involving "sex-neutral" personality traits were viewed as characteristic of jobs with an equal percentage of male and female incumbents.

 

Interestingly, the research suggests that males and females are largely in agreement with regard to rating jobs as male or female.

 

Im not sure if this answers the why question, or how the above two factors interact to establish the sextype for any given job. Seems to be a bit of a chicken/egg issue.

 

Regarding musos, it is hard to argue that "artistic ability" or creativity is necessarily a male or female attribute. But seems that when cats like Bach or Beethoven were around, males dominated the music scene. While this probably was reflective of the overall repressed position of women at that time, perhaps to a certain extant this trend has continued to the present day.

 

Im having a few beers with a colleague of mine who is a social psychologist, tomorrow afternoon. I will be sure to toss this question over to him among our fodder.

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."

- George Bernard Shaw

 

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[Considering every aspect of the music industry is male-dominated,

Classical isnt.

 

I haven't counted heads, but the PSO has a very large female contingent, including some first chairs.

 

Philly has a female tuba player. :thu:

 

This thread actually surprises me. If I was the OP, the thread would have been "Why are there SO many women in Music"? :laugh: I do classical gigs where there are 30 women and me, seriously. :D

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Side bar: I'm trying to develop a short list of famous/semi-famous female keyboard players that are/were not primarily lead vocalists.

 

Debbie Shair - Heart

Linda McCartney - Wings

Christine McVie - Fleetwood Mac

Kate Pierson - B-52's

Lisa Coleman - Prince & the Revolution

 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Any others?

 

Not really famous but quite good: Karen Grotberg who played with the Jayhawks for a while. In fact, her playing was noted when Keyboard selected "Tomorrow the Gren Grass" as one of their "classic keyboard albums" a few years ago.

 

I actually liked that column but they don't seem to have it anymore.

 

 

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I think the dynamic that makes men more common in live rock/blues/jazz situations than women is the same dynamic that makes teenage boys pick guitar or drums over keys: Testosterone, ego, and a desire to look "cool".
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I think the dynamic that makes men more common in live rock/blues/jazz situations than women is the same dynamic that makes teenage boys pick guitar or drums over keys: Testosterone, ego, and a desire to look "cool".

 

OK, so by that logic, we must have picked Keyboards for some OTHER reason - so why wouldn't women do the same?

 

I really think it has more to do with they style of playing/performance - structure and reading music vs playing by ear, improv, putting on a show. Ever example anyone can come up with where women are prevelent, they are typically reading sheet music and doing very structured rehearsals/performances - and not very much attention on them. And if they WANT attention - where better to get it than the lead singer position. I think the other dynamic is just the technology associated with keyboards. Not that they aren't CAPABLE, just not INTERESTED. A lot of female piano players, not many female synthesizer players. Look at the famous ones listed already - mostly they play piano and sing.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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