Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

I think I'm selling my piano


frogmonkey

Recommended Posts

How can you distinguish what is integral to the piano, from what is changeable?

Play, tune, repair, regulate, and voice a lot of them. That all had to be done, and I would have to at least tune it myself to have a fully informed opinion on any piano. Hopefully, your tech has an informed opinion and has discussed a lot of that with you.

 

Much of a piano's tone is determined on the drawing board, and in the belly department, where the ribs are glued to the soundboard, and the soundboard is glued to the case. That's your speaker. You can soften up the hammers with needling and various potions, but that's not going get anything out of the box that it doesn't already have. A tech can only make a piano sound as is as it can, and no more.

 

I agree with SK that audio would help up all take better guesses, but I have a feeling that little of what bothers you can be corrected easily if your tech is up to par and he hasn't already done that.

 

I was considering selling it a couple years ago, and I put $1500 into it instead.

For that kind of money I hope it's more to you liking than it was. Tuning and regulation probably accounts for some of that. I'm curious about exactly what he did to try to soften it up and out mellow it out.

 

Your use of the word raspy make me wonder. A common source of annoying string noise is the string riding up the bridge pin slightly so that it's not firmly seated on the bridge. This can be fixed easily by seating the string with a little tap. I used a brass punch and the back side of my tuning hammer. If you can feel and hear the string snap into position, do the whole piano. It was part of routing pre tuning on grands if I noticed a hint of it anywhere. This might account for some of what bothers you.

 

This is a critical area to inspect when you're looking over a piano. The notch in the bridge should perfectly split the diameter of the bridge pin. If the notching is sloppy, and there's too much bridge pin in the notch anywhere, there's no easy fix. The zing isn't going away with a little tap.

 

Raspy could describe loose windings on bass strings. This can sometimes be fixed by backing off the tension enough to remove it from the hitch pin, and giving it a clockwise twist. The more twist it needs to kill the buzz, the more prone it will be to breaking.

 

Even though we're all guessing, I think it's likely that the general consensus is correct. This probably isn't enough piano, or the right piano for you. The only time it's good to make a hasty purchase is when a piano really grabs you.

 

I agree with almost all of what folks have said. I'd let the rest slide, except that Mr. GitC insists that a I correct Dave if he's wrong.

 

There is no such thing as a piano that's too loud. Only rooms that are too small. Having the right piano costs less than having the right room for it.

 

 

 

--wmp
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

The point made about the rooms' acoustics is a very valid one - but that is heard by people some distance away from the piano (more of an "overview" of the sound).

 

If you are actually playing the piano, you don't get this perspective.

 

I totally disagree, unless it's a very large room. In rooms the size of typical living rooms, acoustics have a huge impact on the sound. Too small a room, too low a ceiling, and too much reflective surfaces can make a fantastic piano sound terribly harsh .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahh, home at last. Nothing like Christmas with the in-laws to make a guy feel good in his studio ;)

 

OK! I'm going to make some recordings of the piano today and post them.

 

Hopefully I can capture and convey the "raspy" thing, which I'm not entirely sure is an actual component of the sound, or an overall impression in my head.

 

This is great, guys-- I really appreciate it! Stay tuned for audio!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In rooms the size of typical living rooms, acoustics have a huge impact on the sound. Too small a room, too low a ceiling, and too much reflective surfaces can make a fantastic piano sound terribly harsh .

That has been my experience, too.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The questions:

 

what can be done for the instrument?

 

a very important question, since as was stated above, at some point you will reach the limits of some part of the physical construction of the box, and no amount of money can fix that.

 

what can be done for the environment?

 

Is it really the instrument that sounds bad, or does the instrument sound bad in that room? The sound of a room can, within a limited defined set of parameters, be changed.

 

By the way, this like 'sound absorbing curtains' are pretty much a suckers bet. You probably want a broad band absorber to affect a given range of frequencies evenly and to a defined degree of performance. Curtains and rugs aren't really very good at this. Sure they can help -a little- but don't expect any dramatic changes.

 

Oh, and while making the recordings for your own edification, try micing from right beside your head, then from some point in front of the bow (6 to 10 feet if you have it), at about 4 feet to 6 feet high. In one room in my studio we had over-treated it to the point where, when you played an acoustic guitar it sounded as if the notes were being sucked away from you.... but the mics further away picked up a distinctly different and better sound, and listeners in the room loved the guitar sound, and the recordings were always very nice.

 

Without knowing anything about your room, my first guess is that you've got some early reflections arriving off of a hard boundary at about the same volume level as the primary sound, comb-filtering with the primary sound and creating the harshness. Might be just wishful thinking on my part though, as that could be an easy fix.

 

We have the same problem at the home of the Symphony here, Heinz Hall. When the PSO plays it sounds good, but when out of town shows come through and hang their PAs, we always warn them,'keep the sound off of the walls...' and very few listen because, after all, what could we possibly know? And the reviews in the papers trash their shows for the sound being harsh and garbled. (shrug...)

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, I have an Essex and have been very happy with it. If you do end up trading, you may give them a look.

 

That being said, it seems that room treatments would be the easiest thing to experiment with. Even if you don't go all out, just moving around some acoustic panels, rugs, and repositioning the piano ought to give you SOME idea if it's going to have much of an effect on the sound and you don't have to commit to anything.

 

If that gets you close, a tech ought to be able to get you the rest of the way there I would think. If you're still not close, then you may not get there.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok... here are a few recordings through a single Audio Technica AT4040. It is a singularly bizarre experience trying to make a recording that captures the faults of the instrument.

 

The clangorous overtones are quite obvious at louder dynamics. The recording's a little hot, I think-- be careful.

 

Middle C at different dynamics, and some notes:

http://www.andricseverance.com/tunes/middle-c.mp3

 

Some bass notes:

http://www.andricseverance.com/tunes/bass.mp3

 

Tasteless noodling on the whole piano:

http://www.andricseverance.com/tunes/noodle.mp3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.......... the "hardness" isn't just the tone, it is the overall vibe of the piano. I believe that softening the hammers might affect the tone in a positive way, making it less bright, but I think there are more issues than that, and that they are a fundamental characteristic of the piano. I have put a fair amount of money into trying to improve it. My tech is the most accomplished guy around, ..........

 

fm-

 

After listening to your third mp3, the issue to me sounds more like a tuning and perhaps voicing issue. I like the basic tone of the piano, it doesn't have that inherent quality of the Yamha/Kawais, which can be too bright. For an older Yamaha that has not been voiced and tuned at a high level over a period of 10-20 years, it pretty tough to salvage it IMO.

 

I'm not all that familiar with the Boston line but I found another Boston GP 163 here.

This sounds nice but I'm also hearing a bit of a tuning problem. Maybe that is the "fundamental characteristic" of the piano like you mentioned.

 

If it were me, I would make sure I had exhausted all of the highest level techs in your area. You said you're current guy might be the best around, maybe he is but in any case I would be sure I would have sussed out who tunes for the local symphonies or the highest level concerts in your area. It might take a few extra $$s to get someone to drive to you----of course I know nothing about your area or accessibility to it from surrounding areas. You quite possibly have gone this whole route, in which case I wouldn't have any more suggestions except that only you can make the decision if the piano speaks to you well enough to hold onto it and invest more dough into it. I think it's basically a very nice sounding instrument--I'm just concerned after hearing a second piano with the same sounding tuning issues. I'm not sure of the technical term, but it sounds like maybe it's one of those pianos where even if it IS "in tune", the overall tonal characteristics make it sound kinda funky in certain registers.

 

My tuner I feel is in top 5 of guys in LA. He very expensive ($200 for JUST a tuning) but when he tunes, the piano STAYS there, it doesn't move. There have have been years with my previous Yamha S6 where I would get only one tuning a year, it held that well. Many times after one of his tuning, all of these little quirky overtones and misc. unpleasantries that really are bugging me, a lot of times disappear. There is a huge difference has to who's turning those pins and voicing those hammers.

 

Also regarding acoustics- after many years, many pianos, grands and uprights of varying quality, in many different sizes and shapes of rooms, I've come to the conclusion the most important factor in whether a piano speaks, sustains, sings is the height of the ceiling. The lower the ceiling the less space that sound has to resonate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" I've come to the conclusion the most important factor in whether a piano speaks, sustains, sings is the height of the ceiling.... "

 

That is the close boundary issue I spoke of, too. And why I mentioned that he might need a cloud. (As well as an absorber behind his head, or up in the corner between the wall and ceiling.)

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Andric,

 

I don't know squat vs. some of these guys, but what I can say is you're right. To me, the piano sounds like an upright. This would be fine if it were one. I would try another tech, just in case. Sometimes the best tech/doctor/mechanic/etc. just doesn't do a good job with certain cases. Look at dB's story in the mastering thread about having good results with the same mastering engineer until his latest album. The new guy (Craig Anderton) just blew him away!

 

First, I have an Essex and have been very happy with it. If you do end up trading, you may give them a look.
Technically, Essex is a trade down. That said, if it ends up working better for him, whatever works. :thu:

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The piano is out of tune.

 

That's your #1 problem right there.

 

In the mp3 of the middle C it sounds like there are some wild overtones possibly from the un-dampened upper strings interfering with the pure tone of the note (which doesn't sound all that bad by itself). This might be solved by a better tuning or maybe some of the upper dampers are not tight enough against the strings.

 

In any case, when was the piano last tuned? It needs one badly and that's the biggest thing I'm hearing from those samples.

 

http://www.ptg.org/findATechnician-showRPT.php?zip=05402&radius=5&Sort=zip&easy=easy&Submit=Search

 

There's a RPT in your area. Call him. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The piano is out of tune.
I'm glad you said that, because I thought that were some characteristics that seemed out of tune to me, such as beating in the middle C. But I'm not at the stage where I'm so sure of such things.

 

The consensus seems to be, try another tech!

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must respectfully disagree. Yes the tuning is a bit frumpy, but tuning is a very small part of the problems I hear. Sounds to me like I was correct about both buzzy strings creeping up the bridge pins and buzzy bass string windings. The hammers are small, light, and were doped hard to begin with. This is particularly apparent in the example Dave Ferris posted. The thin nasal quality in the bass and mids isn't going away no matter what you do. That's the box. I agree with Joe. This sounds like an upright. Replacing the hammers and bass strings might help some, but not enough to recommend it.

 

Comparing frogmonkey's piano to the one in the showroom, I don't think the guy did too badly trying to tame it. It sounds better, but not $1500 better.

 

I'd chase out the buzzes, tune it, perhaps soften the harshest stuff a little, unload it and trade up. I wouldn't mind being without a piano for a little while if I could get a good price for this one. Take your time picking out the next one. Make sure you love it. I would try to go for something more in the 6' to 6' 6" range.

 

 

 

--wmp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My point is any technician that would consider that piano in tune and leave it that way would not be someone I would trust doing $1500 worth of voicing work to a piano. Of course, I don't know how long it has been since it has been tuned, so perhaps I'm jumping the gun.

 

I think FM needs a better tech. Just my two cents.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think FM needs a better tech. Just my two cents.

 

I can't disagree with that. I think he should have done better chasing out the buzzes. We don't know how long it's been since the tuning, but I'd guess it's been at least a couple of months. Before it got real cold and dry because it's a few beats flat. But I agree that unisons that frumpy might suggest somebody who might not be that good at setting the pin.

 

 

--wmp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

B3-er my tech is an RPT, very experienced, and he seems to get all the good gigs around here. It was tuned November 20.

 

I really do have to get another tech in here. Maybe my guy can't hear those frequencies anymore?

 

 

An experiment:

This time, all the strings except middle C are muted! The open piano with the mic in it is draped with several layers of acoustical curtains in an attempt to isolate it from the room.

http://www.andricseverance.com/tunes/covered_muted.mp3

 

 

Now here is a single string of middle C:

http://www.andricseverance.com/tunes/singlestring2.mp3

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man there are some nasty partials in there. I don't want to rag on your RPT. Maybe that piano is a bitch to tune due to all those inharmonic partials.

 

You may have done all you can do to that instrument.

 

If I may make a suggestion, try to find a mid 1950s Chickering (or earlier) or a 1910 to 1920 A.B. Chase. They were a contemporary of Steinway and the two companies shared a lot of the same techniques with each other. In fact, if you look under the early Chase grands, the bracing looks like a Steinway. I have a 1913 that I found at a Christian Academy for $1000. It needs work (action needs refurbished, has some dead bass strings, needs refinished, new hammers, etc.) but the tone of that piano is AMAZING. And it's only 5 1/2'.

 

Seriously. I kept telling my engineer friend who is a stickler when it comes to pianos. He finally came over the other day and I played it for him. Keep in mind, I have had the piano for about a year and I have not tuned it because the strings are getting caught up in the agraffes due to corrosion. So this thing has not been tuned in who knows how long. And the timbre is still fantastic. My engineer friend was really impressed. I'll try to make a recording of it.

 

The only problem is that they are rare. But I like the mid-50's Chickerings, too. They can be found for a song these days.

 

There are lots of really well-made, great sounding American grands that were made between the 1910s and the 1950s. If you can find a restorer, you can get a great deal on a really nice sounding piano.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... "I don't want to rag on your RPT".

 

B3-er is being too polite here - I'm not going to be.

 

Jeez - the so-called 'tuning' (only 1 month ago???) is AWFUL..... the intervals & unisons are all WRONG.

 

Get yourself a DECENT piano tuner/tech & see where it goes from there.

 

This is the first issue you need to sort out.

 

John.

 

some stuff on myspace

 

Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7

Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"This time, all the strings except middle C are muted! The open piano with the mic in it is draped with several layers of acoustical curtains in an attempt to isolate it from the room."

 

Just FYI:This might help the guys trying to sort out your physical piano problems like buzzes and tuning, but it would make for a very unrealistic recording of the sound of a piano in a room, just keep that in mind.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Bill. Yeah, I was just trying a little controlled experiment to try and see if out-of-tune string resonance or room noise was primarily responsible for the unpleasantness.

 

I found a good deal of unpleasantness on even a single string. That those high overtones are slightly out of tune on the unison augments it. If I were programming that patch on a synth, I would be pleased with myself :D

 

jpscoey and B3-er, please do rag on my tech as much as is warranted. I'd like to keep him anonymous so we can talk about the state of the piano without defaming him. Is it possible that in his advanced years and experience, he can no longer hear those frequencies (the partials)?

 

In defense of his tuning, it's really hard to keep a piano in tune in this Vermont climate! Usually it's cold by November, but this year winter kicked in mid December.

 

But now I'm eager to get someone else in here ASAP! I know another experienced RPT nearby, but he did some unsatisfactory (and expensive) work on my father's piano and I don't have confidence in him. Another of the most visible Yellow-Pages-Listed tech's comes with a strong anti-recommendation from a pianist friend ("XXXXX is a hack!"). Other than that, the techs I know of are my tech's apprentice, and another young guy who wanted to iron my dampers. Actually I like the young guy and recommend him to people with old funky pianos, but I don't think he's my precision guy.

 

B3-er, my father has one of those 1950's Chickerings! It is gorgeous! In fact, it is that Chickering that reminds me that a piano's tone should be pleasing, not harsh.

 

 

Dave Ferris, thanks for that link. I'm not crazy about the sound of that piano, either, though it's not as bad as mine. These days, when I try a Boston in a showroom, I'm usually not crazy about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of really well-made, great sounding American grands that were made between the 1910s and the 1950s. If you can find a restorer, you can get a great deal on a really nice sounding piano.
How much would/should the whole package cost, piano + restoration? I'm trying to figure out if I should even bother to look or if I can't afford anything like this right now.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also want to suggest that you get if you do not already have some sort of humidification. At one of our theaters we have a little one that attaches directly to the piano, but that is only okay and it gets tuned frequently. I had some individual room humidifiers, but then you have to fill them. The really big one that I bought was $180. Then I found a Desert Spring home model at Lowes for under $200, installed it myself (I think I got $10-$20 worth of other stuff for the install)and bought the Auto Flush kit to automatically clean out the water every 48 hours (keeping it fresher) for about another $100. They also have a sensor to kick it on when the furnace blower comes on, it is under $40. All told, I had spent more for various room units and had to keep filling them, this thing is automatic and my vintage guitars are much happier.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of really well-made, great sounding American grands that were made between the 1910s and the 1950s. If you can find a restorer, you can get a great deal on a really nice sounding piano.
How much would/should the whole package cost, piano + restoration? I'm trying to figure out if I should even bother to look or if I can't afford anything like this right now.

 

Joe, I can't say because every market is different. Here in Michigan you can probably find a restored Chickering of that vintage for $6000 - $10000 depending on the seller and the level of restoration. There was one on craigslist here last year that was $6500 and it was recently completely restored including the soundboard. At the academy where I found my Chase they had a restored Chickering and one exactly like it that was unrestored. They said the restoration cost about $7000. They were selling the un-restored one for $2000. I almost bought it. It was very nice. But the Chase sounded better.

 

New pianos have their pros and cons. Same as old pianos. The one thing a lot of old pianos have once properly restored over many new pianos that would cost the same is tone. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, I have an Essex and have been very happy with it. If you do end up trading, you may give them a look.
Technically, Essex is a trade down. That said, if it ends up working better for him, whatever works. :thu:

 

Agreed. I only posted this so as not to rule it out if he does look for a replacement, as he may find the tone more to his liking.

 

A couple years ago when I bought it (at a used piano sale at a local university), I sat down at a lot of different pianos including Steinways, Baldwins, Bostons. They all sounded different. Interestingly, there was a Baldwin I liked when I FIRST sat down at it, but after playing many of the other pianos and coming back, I didn't like it anymore - it sounded bright/loud/harsh. I kept coming back to the Essex as it seemed to sound the best in my price range, and seemed closest to the Steinways (out of my price range). This was in a fairly large room with wood floors and very high ceilings. When I got it home, I still liked it and have been happy ever since (I have wood floors and 12' ceilings).

 

But obviously from the more recent postings, you have some other steps to pursue well before replacement is considered.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to take this off topic but...

 

It has been suggested above that when a top notch tech tunes your piano, it's likely to stay in tune longer.

 

I don't understand why that would be so.

 

I thought most of the things that make a piano go out of tune are outside of a tuner's control. i.e. changes in temperature & humidity, tightness of the pin block, How much the pitch had to be raised, etc....

 

Am I wrong?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To explain further, the part of the tuning pin you can actually see is about 1/3 the length of the entire pin. When you crank on the pin with a hammer, that front part of the pin wants to move first since it has the least resistance. If you tune that way, your tunings will not be stable. You have to learn what it feels like to move the entire pin with the hammer. It just takes experience.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Setting the pin.

I didn't know that. That's good information to have.

 

However I still go back to my point. When someone complains that their piano didn't hold a tune after a few months, and it was previously tuned by a RPT, how likely is it that it's due to the RPT not setting the pins correctly vs. environmental factors?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...