Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

I think I'm selling my piano


frogmonkey

Recommended Posts

... to get a better one.

 

I've got a Boston GP 163 that I bought at Steinway Hall in 2003 for way too much money, $16,000. I was naive, and dazzled by the Steinway marketing. I also had it in mind that I would trade it in towards a new A or B when I was rich enough to afford it. That's part of the deal: lifetime "trade-up" for the full purchase price.

 

Right. The "rich enough" thing just aint happening-- there's no way I'll ever buy a new Steinway. I do make a good living teaching piano lessons, though, and the thing has paid for itself. My students "ooh" and "aah" over it.

 

It's a good solid piano. The action is even and precise (after a good deal of regulation). It has a big tone. But it just doesn't turn me on like I want a piano to. It doesn't have the sweetness or mellowness. It has a "hardness" to it, that isn't comfortable. It doesn't draw me to it. Playing one note doesn't make me want to savor that note and then play another.

 

There is some irony in the fact that it was the purchase of new hi-hats for my drumset that highlighted the lack of attraction. Those hi-hats sound so good, I just want to play them all day.

 

I figure, if I buy a used grand, I can get a better piano for less money. I haven't found the piano I want yet. Someone is coming to look at my piano on Sunday. I'm scared he'll buy it.

 

Am I crazy?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Sunnavabitch.

 

I wrote a long reply to this post in Garage Sale and the thread got deleted, meaning so did my post. :mad:

 

Anyway, my point was it's not easy picking an instrument that speaks to you, especially at that level. Best of luck finding one.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I crazy?

 

AHAHAHahahahahahaha!!

 

You're asking THIS crowd?

 

Yes Meestrah Frogmonkey. You are crazy. :freak:

 

However, it has nothing to do with selling a piano.

 

It probably has quite a bit to do with the sudden spike in your enjoyment quotient when you hang around the likes of us.

 

BWAHAhahahahahahahahaha. :evil:

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

frogmonkey, the hammers can be softened up ... or simply replaced. I would seek out an excellent piano tech and ask for softer hammers. This isn't rocket science.

 

I'm guessing most of the hardness of the sound is a direct result of the hardness of the hammers. Someone tell me I'm wrong.

 

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave, I believe you're right. I know very little about acoustics, but a former piano teacher and friend of mine has two grands, I believe they're Kawais, and he had the hammers softened and it gave them a much mellower tone.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

 

:/

 

C'mon guys. He's vulnerable.

 

This opportunity doesn't come 'round every day! :laugh:

 

Hi Dave. :wave:

 

Tom, was it that Shure SM58 that got your attention? :)

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've written this before and had this done to my own Yamaha grand - a solution of fabric softener and isopropyl alcohol. A friend of mine is a tech and he used it on my piano. This is a known 'trick' and it softened my hammers. This wasn't a permanent solution but it worked for a while.

 

Have your hammers replaced with new softer hammers. Why buy a new piano when the solution can be gotten for little hassle and very little down time.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This forum's usual take is 'sell it and buy___________!' That's ok, but, problem is, the minute you sell that paid-for grand you are going to regret it. Unless you just hate it. It works as a lesson marketing instrument. That has to help the bottom line. I think you're better off having it worked on, as advised. Take the advice and have a tech recondition it. Good luck.
"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sunnavabitch.

 

I wrote a long reply to this post in Garage Sale and the thread got deleted, meaning so did my post. :mad:

 

Anyway, my point was it's not easy picking an instrument that speaks to you, especially at that level. Best of luck finding one.

 

Damn, I'm sorry about that Joe. I didn't mean to post it there in the first place-- I deleted it quickly, and we must have been going at the same time because I didn't see a reply. My apologies. You've found the crux of the matter, though. It's hard to find the right piano. When you say "at that level" I don't know if you mean "at that high level" or "at that low level":D But either way it's true. I can find plenty of unobtainable $70,000 pianos that speak to me. OTOH, a $16,000 is a tremendous investment for me and it stresses me out a little, also making it harder to choose.

 

Dave, the "hardness" isn't just the tone, it is the overall vibe of the piano. I believe that softening the hammers might affect the tone in a positive way, making it less bright, but I think there are more issues than that, and that they are a fundamental characteristic of the piano. I have put a fair amount of money into trying to improve it. My tech is the most accomplished guy around, AFAIK. Hmm... maybe I should try again, or try another tech, but I have a feeling that it is deeper than that.

 

ITGITC, I knew I was in the right place :D

 

I feel a little bit guilty about this dilemma, because having even this piano is an enviable position. I could be banging on a hollow log or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, the piano can be adjusted.

 

I'd also like to throw in a bit about room acoustics here.

If you are already familiar, forgive me.

 

The room and the placement of the instrument in the room is going to have a lot to do with the sound of the instrument.

 

Knowing more about that room and the placement might help some of us to give you some better ideas besides selling the piano.

 

In a concert or recital hall, typically pianos are placed on hard solid wooden flooring. That is great, in a huge space. I find that in many homes and for many recording purposes in even a larger space, I need to soften the reflections coming from under the piano. Two or three 4 inch thick pieces of Owens Corning 705 or 703 (comes in 2 foot by 4 foot sheets), wrapped in muslin for looks and just laid on the floor works wonders. put them up on 2 or 4 inch legs to get them up off of the floor a little improves the performance.

 

That is just right off of the top of my head, and helps in almost any smaller space.

 

Next comes the treating of other reflective surfaces, including the ceiling. (You might find some sort of a 'cloud' to help.)

 

Anyway, having someone with a SMAART system or similar acoustical measuring tool come in and check response at your playing position might help.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The post about an excellent piano tech is spot on...I owned a Steiner for about 25 years. I tried tuners until I found the "guy".

He made such a difference in the playability of the piano..he used to travel about 50 miles to my place, but to me, there simply wasnt any other way, and I gladly payed him whatever he wanted.

Is there a university near you? If they have Steiners, they may have a good guy that you should try b4 you sell the piano..that is, if you really dont want to sell it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with much of the sage advice above.

 

Unless you've already found a piano that speaks to you and you will love, under no circumstances should you sell your current piano (unless you need to funds to secure your new one). Without your instrument, you'll feel "pushed" to replace it and may make a purchase in haste that you may come to regret later.

 

If it were me, I'd look at room treatment next, then some additional work on your piano. I'd think selling your instrument in hopes of finding a better one would be an act of last resort.

 

YMMV

 

 

Yamaha C7 Grand, My Hammonds: '57 B3, '54 C2, '42 BC, '40 D, '05 XK3 Pro System, Kawai MP9000, Fender Rhodes Mk I 73, Yamaha CP33, Motif ES6, Nord Electro 2, Minimoog Voyager & Model D, Korg MS10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some great advice. The Boston is made by Kawai. In my experience, Kawai pianos tend to be bright. I'm actually going to tune a Kawai console in about 20 minutes. :)

 

That said, room acoustics can certainly affect how the piano sounds. And voicing the hammers can help as well. But a Kawai is a Kawai.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No problem, froggie. I take too long to write my posts sometimes. :)

 

Again, best of luck getting the piano you want. I wish I had an acoustic at all.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would try to fix what I had, and meanwhile look for a piano which fulfills my idea of tone. You'll need that piano for teacheing, would you lose students if you by a new one?? I've played some old Bechsteins which I really like the tone of. And of course Malmsjö.......but thats in sweden.

 

The Hammertips tip sounds like a good idea.

 

The room plays matters a lot, I used to have a petrof grand about 1.90 in a 20 m2 room...had to do alot of adjustments to the room which made the piano tone suffer.

Now I have an upright schimmel piano in a 75m2 room, three brickwalls and one with glass......terrible acoustics. Have to do a something about the room-and buy a grand again :)

 

Good luck with you're piano hunt/fix.

 

/Fred

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adding to what Bill already wrote - My Yamaha six footer, which I sold about ten years ago, was also a very loud piano. I placed strips of 1/4" felt between the piano frame and the lid which reduced the sound a bit from the top half of the piano.

 

I then set to work on the sound board. I stuffed many towels between the under part of the piano and the soundboard. It was a great sounding piano, it was just a tad too loud. I don't remember if the piano was sitting on a hardwood floor or on carpeting, but nice thick carpeting would have helped to quiet down a bright loud piano.

 

It it were my piano, I'd replace the hammers and choose the softest ones made. Hammers can be needled to be made softer (and to better match each other), but starting with softer hammers would be my strategy.

 

I remember using carpet tiles on the back part of a Yamaha upright I bought when I was 20. An acoustic instrument, especially one with a sound board and hard hammers, can be bright and loud.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boston and Essex are both marketed and designed by Steinway, but they are built in factories overseas. Boston by Kawai and Essex by Young Chang and Pearl River depending on the model.

 

Other than the "Steinway & Sons" brand, Steinway markets two budget brands: Boston and Essex. These pianos are made using lower-cost components and labor. These pianos are designed by Steinway but manufactured at other piano factories.

 

Boston: made for the general piano market at lower prices than Steinway's name brand. Boston pianos are manufactured at the Kawai factory in Hamamatsu, Japan; the same city in which Steinway competitor Yamaha maintains its global headquarters. Approximately 5,000 Boston pianos are built every year. There are five Boston grand models and four Boston uprights available in a variety of finishes. Boston grands feature a wider tail design (a feature of the Steinway models A, B, C and D) resulting in a larger soundboard area than conventionally-shaped pianos of comparable sizes.

 

Essex: cheaper than Steinway and Boston pianos. Grand piano models EGP-161 and 183 are made in Korea at the Young Chang factory. Models EGP-155 and 173 are currently made at the Pearl River factory in China.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_%26_Sons#Piano_brands

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

It's a good solid piano.

The action is even and precise (after a good deal of regulation).

It has a big tone.

But it just doesn't turn me on like I want a piano to. It doesn't have the sweetness or mellowness.

It has a "hardness" to it, that isn't comfortable.

I figure, if I buy a used grand, I can get a better piano for less money.

I haven't found the piano I want yet.

Am I crazy?

Hiya Frogmonkey - Merry Christmas !

 

I've earned my living as a piano tuner/tech for 27 years, and this is a recurring issue!

 

Pretty much all of the above advice is good, but I'd like to offer my 2pen'oth (translation = 2cents :D) if that's ok?

 

The point made about the rooms' acoustics is a very valid one - but that is heard by people some distance away

 

from the piano (more of an "overview" of the sound).

 

If you are actually playing the piano, you don't get this perspective.

 

Dave Horne's comments are along the right lines - but buying a whole new set of hammers would be costly.

 

Have a SERIOUS word with your tech about your concerns (from what you said above, everything else seems to be ok?).

 

A relatively simple 'voicing/toning' could solve this for you.

 

In effect, what that does is 'loosen' the fibres of the hammer felt

 

(which are moulded under intense pressure + steam), to create a softer 'pad' that strikes the string.

 

If this doesn't work for you there could be other (once again more costly) ways of getting around this -

 

such as re-adjusting the frame to increase/decrease the down-bearing/ re-stringing the piano with different

 

gague strings, or indeed 'muffling' the soundboard with sound-proofing type materials.

 

It could also be that the action is seated slightly wrong, so the hammer is striking the string at

 

the wrong point (this could be a fractions of a millimetre).

 

If you want to be more specific with your concerns feel free to send me a PM.

 

One other thing - don't sell your piano 'til you're sure you've found something to replace it with!

 

 

John.

 

some stuff on myspace

 

Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7

Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Merry Christmas, guys! I'm getting cold feet about selling, now. On the way to my wife's family in MA yesterday we stopped by a piano dealer. He offered me a trade-up deal for any piano in the place, used or new! It makes me think maybe other dealers might do that too; I thought my only trade-up option was going to be a NEW Steinway/Boston/Essex. Of course the only pianos that REALLY grabbed me were the new Steinway A's and B's. There was a used Yamaha C7 that was pretty nice- definitely an improvement over mine, and bigger :) Anyway, it's encouraging to have the option.

 

Knowing more about that room and the placement might help some of us to give you some better ideas besides selling the piano.

Ah, yes, I might have to take you up on that offer when I get home! The room is definitely in need of acoustical treatment, especially since I knocked down the wall and took over the former guest room. I just received some materials that I ordered to get started- sound absorbing "curtains" for the windows.

 

The Boston is made by Kawai. In my experience, Kawai pianos tend to be bright.

The problems with my tone are not what I'd call bright. There is a raspy quality to it that isn't pleasing. And the bass strings have annoying, high, clangorous overtones that my tech has so far failed to alleviate. Other than these two qualities, it is hard to pinpoint what it is that fails to please me.

 

Unless you've already found a piano that speaks to you and you will love, under no circumstances should you sell your current piano (unless you need to funds to secure your new one). Without your instrument, you'll feel "pushed" to replace it and may make a purchase in haste that you may come to regret later.

That's a good point. I am worried, though, that it will be much harder to sell my piano at a reasonable price than it will be to find another. The hasty, regrettable purchase has already been made ;) I do, indeed, need the money from the sale before I can afford a new one. But yeah, you're right-- especially when I consider the trade-up offer.

 

I'm not worried about hurting my teaching practice by being temporarily piano-less. My schedule is nearly full, and most of my students are pretty loyal (I think).

 

 

Damn, I think I'm going to have to call off the potential buyer who is supposed to come Sunday, and apologize. Y'all are right: I should try some more solutions before I jump.

 

Despite all the advice to the contrary, I'm still not confident that any amount of voicing can make the piano what I want it to be. How can you distinguish what is integral to the piano, from what is changeable? I was considering selling it a couple years ago, and I put $1500 into it instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Dave that voicing can make a big difference, but if your tech has tried everything then maybe that's just not on.

 

I also agree with Bill and Dave that the space is really significant, and that there are things you can do to compensate. It's worth a try, considering the expense and hassle of replacing a piano, and the relatively small expense and hassle of trying voicing and acoustics options.

 

For starters, try finding a few mattresses and lean them against the nearby walls.

 

Personally, I don't like the sound of a nice big grand piano in any room with standard ceilings. A piano needs room above it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd replace the hammers and choose the softest ones made. Hammers can be needled to be made softer (and to better match each other), but starting with softer hammers would be my strategy.

 

That's also Steinway's strategy- their hammers are a bit on the soft side and you have to play them in. My L was a bit on the muffled side when I first got it, and it brightened up nicely within six months. I have since moved to a house where it sits in a bigger room with a stone floor, but I invested in several shag rugs (one directly underneath the piano) and window coverings and now it fills the room beautifully.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK - you've got a GOOD piano there, yeh?... & it's worth a decent amount of $$$.

 

If no 'tweaking' with it is to your satisfaction, it seems like you're looking for a trade?

 

From the way you describe your wishes (a warm tone & ultra-responive action),

 

my advice would be to look for a well-seasoned (ie: second-hand!) Bosendorfer.

 

The best pianos in the world. (I'm not affiliated with Bosendorfer in any way).....

 

From a tuner/tech point-of-view they are a delight to work on - you can easily make them to play however you would like.

 

& the tone is sublime.

 

I know it's a dilemma - but don't rush into a "got-to-do-it-now" thing!

John.

 

some stuff on myspace

 

Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7

Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounds like all the best suggestions have been made, and I would see what improvements you can make before selling. There's always that possibility the piano just isn't good enough for your tastes. Acoustic room adjustments will help the overall sound, but it won't get rid of anomalies.

 

When I had my Steinway in a condo, it was loud, so I ordered sound proofing foam made for the Steinway B that fits into the underside of the piano. It reduced the volume by about 50%, but the tone suffered, so I took the pieces off.

 

The hammers may be the culprit, but needling the hammers or replacing them is permanent. You could try incrementally squeezing the felt of one hammer with a pair of pliers to soften it temporarily, as a test to see if it improves the sound.

 

Raspy bass strings may be another issue, or maybe a string problem. Nothing else I can think of to say, unless you can post some audio to hear what's going on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow this thread reminds me of a friend who owns an old Baldwin grand. He spent thousands of dollars replacing the action, the strings, the key tops and having the frame refinished, and he still considers it a Baldwin grand. At what point did it stop being a Baldwin grand and became a new and different piano?

 

Having spent several hours playing Bösendorfer grands one vacation, I'm more than convinced that the techs have more control over the outcome than the materials themselves. I did not play one bad Bösendofer grand while visiting their showroom in Vienna. They were all different, but they all were excellent.

 

You cannot say that about Steinway's. You play ten and you might like two or three. I'm sure the other seven or eight would have been made acceptable if those Bösendofer techs had finished them.

 

I would rather take the chance of spending less than $1000 (?) and have the hammers replaced than sell the piano outright and buy yet another grand ... but that's just me.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The point made about the rooms' acoustics is a very valid one - but ... playing the piano, you don't get this perspective."

 

This depends upon the room, and where the instrument sits in the room.

 

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...