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Advice in achieving "infinite" sustain


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First of all, I am not a guitarist so I may lack some basic knowledge of guitar behaviour.

 

I'm currently arranging a rock song in which I'd need the electric guitar to play a cello-like part. The problem is I need it to do that without perceptible distortion in contrast to the previous heavily distorted riff. (I'd arrange it for cello but I'd like the arrangement to stick to the instruments of the band.) So what options do I have - EBow? I understand you can't play intervals with it. Sustainer effects? There's probably too much attack and still too small sustain time using those. Some sort of electric sustain solution installed into the guitar? Guitar-accessories-combination is probably too expensive for me and I can't get my guitarist to experiment on his guitar. Playing guitar with a violin bow? Does it sound like a psaltery from hell? And are all of these dependable of distortion?

 

 

 

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Well, good set-up of the guitar, specifically tailored for a clean, clear sustaining sound, coupled with good, precise technique, will help a lot here.

 

This means moderately medium-highish action and generous relief- the "bow" of the neck that allows a little more "elbow room"/"breathing space" between the strings and frets, with the intonation adjusted for those changes. Fresh, medium to heavy strings will probably help, too, although some players find a point of diminishing return as far as sustain and heavier strings go, as the heavier gauges vibrate in tighter excursion patterns and thus can be perceived as having less sustain... Anyways, the point here being for the string to not lose energy buzzing against frets and into loose hardware, etc.

 

Not having the pickups too close, so that their magnets don't pull too hard against the strings- especially the neck pickup- can help here.

 

Active pickups (battery-powered, pre-amped, low-impedance/low magnet strength), like EMGs and the Live Wire and Blackout series from Seymour Duncan, can help with sustain.

 

I would think that a Gibson Les Paul, 335/355/etc., a PRS, or some similar set or through neck guitar of that overall traditional type would be helpful here

 

Compression can help with perceived sustain, to a point.

 

A good, clean, clear, LOUD amp-tone can really help here, especially if it's loud enough to generate acoustic feedback through the wood and strings of the guitar.

 

Here's a trick: if you're recording a mic'ed amp with a clean tone, use a device that can split the signal into two "Y"-ing branches without any loss of tone, and send one to the mic'ed amp isolated in another room, and the other to a LOUD (but not bleeding into the other amps mic) high-gain, sustaining, feedback-inducing amp close to the guitarist, with a volume-pedal in front of the dirty amp (past the "Y", so as NOT to affect the clean amp) to control the level and feedback there.

 

Slash did a similar thing on some studio recordings mic'ing an old Marshall in the "live" room, while playing in the sound-proofed room by the recording desk with a cranked Mesa Boogie (Mk IV?) and a volume-pedal.

 

Let us know how things go for you there, keep us posted, and please come back and give us a little mp3 snippet sample of both the distorted and clean sustained/cello-impersonating sounds!

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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I would also like to know a little more about this myself.

 

I've been using an E-bow for sustaining cello parts. It works well without a lot of distortion... (our bass player uses a cello bow on his bass for some orchestrated parts).

 

I've been thinking about putting a sustainer in one of my guitars. www.kellyindustries.com/guitars/fernandes_sustainer_kit.html

 

Here's a site where you can hear lots of different examples of what can be done with the E-bow. (Without hearing your arrangement, it's hard to know what can't be done).

 

http://www.ebow.com/youtube.php?cat=-2

I'm on the fourth video playing the acoustic.

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

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Hmmn; come to think of it, if this is for a recording, you could overdub two or more single-string E-Bow lines to achieve your cello-section concept.

 

As for magnetic pickup-style sustainer devices, I prefer the Sustainiac ones made by Maniac Music, over the Fernandez ones. But both are good if that's what you want.

 

And I have- and LOVE!- a Sustainiac "Model C" Acoustic Feedback device, which temporarily clamps a vibrating transducer to the back of the headstock of the guitar, to generate actual acoustic feedback vibrating through the wood and strings like feedback from a loud amp, instead of magnetically inducing vibration in the strings. Waaay cool!! But, not cheap, and maybe not for everyone. Just like with "real" acoustic/amp feedback, some notes on the fretboard feed back better, and some not as well.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Forcing the guitarist to get and learn to play E-Bow and then overdub the part is the best solution I've come this far. I didn't much understand about setting up the guitar for best sustain but I certainly can and will discuss the topic with the guitarist. Though, like I said, I don't think he's willing to experiment with his equipment much (which excludes all sustainer devices both cheap and more expensive).

 

The Slash anecdote indeed caught my attention. I was wondering: the procedure could be realized with virtual amp software also? Not that it would sound that good but I could easily test the outcome in my own flat.

 

Also, Brad Sayre, I'd be interested in hearing is it possible to sustaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiin electric/electric acoustic guitar with E-Bow without ANY distortion? And do you have experience in using cello or violin bow with clean guitar sound? (Admitted, I need very good arguments for using distortion as an effect because it's by nature so unmusical.)

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The Slash anecdote indeed caught my attention. I was wondering: the procedure could be realized with virtual amp software also? Not that it would sound that good but I could easily test the outcome in my own flat.

 

Well, yes and no; the thing is, whether by "real" or "virtual" amp, the added sustain in that scenario comes from the sheer volume and gain of a loud, gainy amp making the guitar vibrate sympathetically from the speaker to the wood and strings and thus inducing sustaining feedback. It's not the distortion/overdrive sound, it's the gain and volume. That might not be something that you can get away with in your flat, without angering your neighbors, etc.! :D The capability of your audio monitors would also affect that.

 

If you can set things up split into a "Y" using one "real" amp (and speaker) that's loud and high-gain for the feedback and sustain, and the other a "virtual" modeling that's clean and clear with some compression and limiting that's going to the recording, it could work.

 

And, yes, an E-Bow can be used on any steel strings, even an acoustic guitar with no pickups or mics of any kind, clean, overdriven, distorted, fuzzed, processed, synth-triggering... It simply forces the string into vibrating by use of a magnetic field.

 

And I must say- distortion can be very musical! The most important factor is the musician.

 

Another thing: the rosin used with a violin or cello bow will ruin the guitar strings immediately. Tey'll be fine for the duration of your bowing exercise, but will be trashed by sticky powdery goo that seeps into and underneath the winding on wound strings, and coats the plain strings. It can sound really cool though. (I know, I've tried it! Chords on an acoustic guitar sound great bowed! But the strings are dead, dull, lifeless and horrible feeling afterward!)

 

AND- it's often difficult or impossible to play two strings at once- and only two strings at once- with a bow on a guitar; the radius of the arc of the strings is generally not sufficient enough to present two strings to the bow for double-stops without hitting the other strings with the bow. This is why violins and cellos are made with a much more pronounced, rounder, curving arc of a radius in their fingerboards and bridges, and also why Jimmy Page had one guitar that he used for the bowing segment of his concerts, with a specially set-up bridge. They probably had to change the strings after each show.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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Thank you, Caevan. You are very helpful. You just prevented me from ruining strings from my old man's electric guitar (he also has a violin) this christmas. I thought it would be really hard to play several strings at once with a bow but the way you describe it, in addition to the fact that it ruins the strings, makes me not want to consider that as an option.

 

I understand the principle of feedback but I was under the impression that there's a way to mimic the feedback with software. So I basically thought that I would route the recorded signal into two different channels i.e. two different software and control the other's volume via MIDI. If this isn't possible, I must order and rely on the E-Bow or leave it to studio experiment you described.

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Forcing the guitarist to get and learn to play E-Bow and then overdub the part is the best solution I've come this far.

Also, Brad Sayre, I'd be interested in hearing is it possible to sustaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiin electric/electric acoustic guitar with E-Bow without ANY distortion? And do you have experience in using cello or violin bow with clean guitar sound? (Admitted, I need very good arguments for using distortion as an effect because it's by nature so unmusical.)

 

I wouldn't try forcing the guitarist to learn to play with an E-Bow as he/she may not like the idea...but if you insist, you might get together with the guitarist and check out E-bow demos on Youtube.com...see if it's really the sound you want and if the guitarist is interested before spending the bucks...I agree with clean sustain without distortion so you might test drive the Boss Compression Sustainer at your local GC...I have the MXR Dyna Comp but do not recommend it without a distortion/overdrive...or if you have a keyboard, you can get some real nice strings like violins that sustain indefinately and/or the analog E-Bow sounds...

Take care, Larryz
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If you have the room and the gear.... by all means try Caevan O'shite's two amp recording method... because it's a great way to get cool guitar tones. Try an E-bow like that... way cool.

 

If you have amp farm or similar plug in's for guitar... well then you could stay in the box. Record your guitar and then switch amps after recording. Then add EQ, compression/delay/reverb, whatever with plug ins. But you will still need sustain.

 

The E-bow works well on clean and acoustic guitar. But with more of a sweet smooth sound when warmed up with distortion. I blend mine with strings a lot.

 

When our bass player uses the cello bow, he uses a bass set up for it (an old Kramer acoustic). The strings have been on it forever, and of course the rosin does build up on the strings... which is a good thing in this case.

 

Let us hear what you come up with.

Best of luck.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is another twist, The Electro-Haramonix Cathedral Reverb

 

its left stomp button is infinite (its wild)and its has ? 8 types of reverb, pre-delay (I agree that the Sustainer system works very well but unless you have a Fernades with one built in or a Moog

or install the sustainer system (cost, labor (yours or paying someone) and altering your guitar for ? $215.00 you can hit infinate (with the settings on the Cathedral Reverb and set your axe down, come back and that last note or chord is still ringing out, Ebow' are cool tool, some extra dextrity I guess.

Check out http://www.ehx.com and the Effectology series (using guitar, E-H [edals and amp) no synths

 

 

Volume 11 of Thr Effectology Series (Crystal Shimmer Effects blows me me away (no keyboards, samplers or midi guitar pick ups were used (not that those are bad), just E-H effects (and throughout the video the signal chain is shown (of course guitar

and amp are included) :)

 

link=

 

http://www.ehx.com/blog/effectology-vol11-crystal-shimmer-effects

 

Re:Videos of The Cathedral Reverb=

 

http://www.ehx.com/products/cathedral

 

or

 

http://www.whatsthatdudeplay.com/

 

the Texas-based website dedicated to all things effects pedal, recently announced the winner of their Builder of the Year Award: Electro-Harmonix.

Heres what they said, We dont think there is any mistaking the banner year Mike and his crew at Electro-Harmonix had in 2009. The NYC-based pedal veterans unleashed a slew of high-quality, highly-sought-after effects boxes this year, led by the Memory Boy analog delay and the Cathedral stereo reverb. EHX made promises with these boxes, and they delivered.

 

and the Cathedral Reverb

 

 

Cathedral Stereo Reverb -

I think its one of EHX best. The stereo imaging is almost 3D. Not sure how they do it, but is huge in stereo. The infinite switch is brilliant and something I use all the time.

 

 

Can't wait for NAMM 2010 but alot of companies have already leaked there products (this is on my list!)

 

Peace

 

Ambientales

 

E-H SMMH

E-H 2880 Looper+oot Controller

Boss SL-20 Slicer

Seymour Duncan Shape Shifter

Line 6 Podxt +model packs

Vox Tonelab (desk top model)

Roger Linn Adrennalin III

(updated from a VII with dual chip

change and a new faceplate

Korg Pandora PX3 (first modeling

device)

M-Audio Radium 49 midi controller

Gibson Blueshawk

Epiphone Elitist '57 Goldtop

Line 6 Variax 500

(and Line 6 Workbench)

Schecter Tempest Custom

PRS SE Tremoni(Platinum)

Takamine EG530C

Atomic Reactor 18 watt

Vox Pathfinder 15 watt

(non-reverb model solid state)

Danelectro metal cased Distortion(brown)

Danelectro metal cased Overdrive (yellow)

(can't reach the storage case for proper name

Danelectro Chili Dog Octave

and picks,strings and straps and

Monster Cables (changed over to one brand

/series and glad I did (considered Mogami

and George L's these sound right to my ears

(sorry if you are not supposed to list gear like this):)

ambienttales

Circuit-Bending

Gibson Blueshawk

Epiphone Elitist '57 Goldtop

Line 6 Variax 500 & Workbench

Atomic Reactor Amp

Podxt

Vox Tonelab

Adrennalinn 111

E-H SMMH

E-H 2880&FC

Seynour Duncan Shape-Shifter

eMac

 

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